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Old
03-14-2013, 10:08 AM
  #126
Dr Gonzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
When Subban's deal ends in 2014, he'll be 2 years away from UFA and Letang will be UFA that summer if the Pens don't sign him to an extension.
Aye, so same amount of UFA time difference (-2 years) between Karlsson and Subban, correct?

Karlsson ate up 4 years in his deal, Subban will eat up 2. Letang will eat up none.

That's why I questioned his logic. Seems to be a disconnect there somewhere.

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03-14-2013, 10:14 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Aye, so same amount of UFA time difference (-2 years) between Karlsson and Subban, correct?

Karlsson ate up 4 years in his deal, Subban will eat up 2. Letang will eat up none.

That's why I questioned his logic. Seems to be a disconnect there somewhere.
Karlsson and Subban are (or I guess were since Karlsson signed long-term) on the same timeline.

Both ended last season as RFAs that were 4 years away from UFA.

Karlsson because he had 3 years of NHL service time as a 22 year old (played first season as a 19 year old). Of the 7 seasons of RFA control, 3 were gone.

Subban because he was 23 years old, so 4 years away from age 27.

Karlsson signed a 7 year deal that ate up 3 UFA seasons.

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03-14-2013, 10:15 AM
  #128
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by CaptainIginla View Post
I hope they dont make the same mistake with Gally...
Saving on two years < paying big money for 8 years
No mistake here; in fact Bergevin gets an A for the Subban’s contract negotiations.

If Subban does not progress as expected (unlikely imo: Therrien is the perfect coach for Subban but it still is a possibility), we can offer him less money. If he keeps playing like the great D he is and can become, we would end up giving to a great D... great D money. Win/win if you ask me. Plus, the cap will go down next season and our Habs did need cap flexibility for the 2013-14 season.

Subban will become RFA in July 2014; there is no point in extending his contract right now. If he keeps playing like we all know he can, the extension talks can start in January 2014.

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03-14-2013, 10:16 AM
  #129
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The good news is the cap will keep going up in the next few years so in 2 years when his new contract kicks in we will be alright

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03-14-2013, 10:17 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Subban will become RFA in July 2014; there is no point in extending his contract right now. If he keeps playing like we all know he can, the extension talks can start in January 2014.
The point many of us are making is if he posts 70+ points next year after dominating this year like he is, you'll be looking at a 7 M salary on his next contract.

We might be able to get him around 6 M per year if we sign him this summer after Subban proved himself over 40 games.

Every dollar counts in a cap system.

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03-14-2013, 10:19 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Karlsson and Subban are (or I guess were since Karlsson signed long-term) on the same timeline.

Both ended last season as RFAs that were 4 years away from UFA.

Karlsson because he had 3 years of NHL service time as a 22 year old (played first season as a 19 year old). Of the 7 seasons of RFA control, 3 were gone.

Subban because he was 23 years old, so 4 years away from age 27.

Karlsson signed a 7 year deal that ate up 3 UFA seasons.
Well there it is, 3 UFA years, and Subban will potentially lose 2. Not a huge difference as was pointed out. Subban's situation is much closer to Karlsson than Letang IMO.

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03-14-2013, 10:21 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Well there it is, 3 UFA years, and Subban will potentially lose 2. Not a huge difference as was pointed out. Subban's situation is much closer to Karlsson than Letang IMO.
I believe you are confusing UFA and RFA years here.

The next contract for Subban would have to be only 4 years long for him to only lose 2 UFA years...

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03-14-2013, 10:23 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I believe you are confusing UFA and RFA years here.

The next contract for Subban would have to be only 4 years long for him to only lose 2 UFA years...
Well we don't know what he will sign, or for how long (I think we can all agree that it should be long term)

That being said, his situation is very similar to Karlsson IMO, of course Karlsson got paid straight out of his ELC, which ended up being a very smart move by Ottawa.

Most of us wanted the same thing this summer, but I guess that's why Bergevin is a GM, and we aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The good news is the cap will keep going up in the next few years so in 2 years when his new contract kicks in we will be alright

Bergevin is definitely aiming to be competitive around that time frame (2 years). I can see our core remaining in tact for the next two seasons, and finally being a legitimate contender at that point. Not saying we aren't a good team, we are, but I still feel we are a few pieces away from being a true contender.

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03-14-2013, 10:27 AM
  #134
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You pay your star players what they're worth and fill holes with good drafting and savvy pro-scouting.

I'm not worried in the least with Timmins at the helm filling in ELC in important spots.

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03-14-2013, 10:29 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
The point many of us are making is if he posts 70+ points next year after dominating this year like he is, you'll be looking at a 7 M salary on his next contract.

We might be able to get him around 6 M per year if we sign him this summer after Subban proved himself over 40 games.

Every dollar counts in a cap system.
If Subban finds himself in a position to ask for 7M$ in July 2014, it would imply that we have a 7M$ D man in our lineup; good news if you ask me! Based on your example, at this point in time, I am willing to sacrifice this 1M$ to make sure (incentive factor, less pressure) that Subban reaches this 7M$ D man status.

This 1M$ is also an insurance policy in case, highly improbable imo but not impossible, Subban regresses during the upcoming season.

From my point of view, those extension talks can wait until January 2014.


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Old
03-14-2013, 10:33 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
No mistake here; in fact Bergevin gets an A for the Subban’s contract negotiations.

If Subban does not progress as expected (unlikely imo: Therrien is the perfect coach for Subban but it still is a possibility), we can offer him less money. If he keeps playing like the great D he is and can become, we would end up giving to a great D... great D money. Win/win if you ask me. Plus, the cap will go down next season and our Habs did need cap flexibility for the 2013-14 season.

Subban will become RFA in July 2014; there is no point in extending his contract right now. If he keeps playing like we all know he can, the extension talks can start in January 2014.
It is not win/win at all. Some of us on here wanted to sign Subban to the max this year in efforts to save A LOT of cap hit down the road. Right now Subban is on par with a point per game, which is around 7 million a season. For your logic, you want to sign him to a max 8 years for 7 million a year (7 just seems right since Karlson is making 6.5, so if we factor in inflation...) which is a cap hit of 7 a year. Now if we signed him to a deal this year, taking into account that he would of taken less in the first few years, I am sure we could of had him at around 5.5/6 cap hit for the next 8 years, which brings him to 31 years old and a UFA.

I don't believe that MB made any mistake in the contract that he offered and that he stuck to his guns. I also don't believe that if Subban got the long term contract this year, he would play any different.

This is the year that Subban puts all the doubters to bed. He is now proving. I don't understand how you can say "the great D he can become", this year he is playing like an elite D. He has played in 3 seasons now with Montreal (The playoffs for me count as a season), this is his 4th. He has progressed leaps and bounds from last year. Has already the same goal total in 1/4 of the games. He is no longer taking stupid penalties. His adjusted his shot, it is now very inconspicuous and we see that goalies are having a hard time reading him. He reads the play so much better, great first passes. His poise with the puck has improved, potentially due to watching Markov. He avoids doing too much (yesterday was the first time he held the puck trying to do too much, but it was a delayed penalty, so no harm could come of it).

We are watching the elite Subban we have been waiting for. No more wait and see. He could regress, like anyone else, but he is young, willing to learn, talented, skilled, intelligent.

My point is that having a great D at a discount because you took a risk, is a win. Paying him great D money because you weren't sure, is a loss.

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03-14-2013, 10:33 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
You pay your star players what they're worth and fill holes with good drafting and savvy pro-scouting.

I'm not worried in the least with Timmins at the helm filling in ELC in important spots.
pretty much, almost every team has guys making 6+ Mil and they have no problems filling their 23 spots on the roster... and that includes good teams.

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Old
03-14-2013, 10:42 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
pretty much, almost every team has guys making 6+ Mil and they have no problems filling their 23 spots on the roster... and that includes good teams.
The way I see it is that yes all teams have highly paid players, but my best examples are Crosby and Malkin. If any players deserve leagues max, it would be Crosby right? Max a player could make I believe is 20% so at 64.3 mil cap, that is 12.86 million. Knowing that Crosby took a discount (Ovechkin is the highest at 9.5), it helps his team stay competitive. Max took a good discount, look at the players making more than him, a lot of them aren't producing like Max is.

Saying that teams can be competitive with players making 6+ M is obvious, but saving cap space a million here, 1.5 there, can get you a player that would make 4.5 instead of 1 a year. Sometimes taking the risk can backfire (a la Gomez) but you can't be afraid to take the risk.

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03-14-2013, 10:43 AM
  #139
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
It is not win/win at all. Some of us on here wanted to sign Subban to the max this year in efforts to save A LOT of cap hit down the road. Right now Subban is on par with a point per game, which is around 7 million a season. For your logic, you want to sign him to a max 8 years for 7 million a year (7 just seems right since Karlson is making 6.5, so if we factor in inflation...) which is a cap hit of 7 a year. Now if we signed him to a deal this year, taking into account that he would of taken less in the first few years, I am sure we could of had him at around 5.5/6 cap hit for the next 8 years, which brings him to 31 years old and a UFA.

I don't believe that MB made any mistake in the contract that he offered and that he stuck to his guns. I also don't believe that if Subban got the long term contract this year, he would play any different.

This is the year that Subban puts all the doubters to bed. He is now proving. I don't understand how you can say "the great D he can become", this year he is playing like an elite D. He has played in 3 seasons now with Montreal (The playoffs for me count as a season), this is his 4th. He has progressed leaps and bounds from last year. Has already the same goal total in 1/4 of the games. He is no longer taking stupid penalties. His adjusted his shot, it is now very inconspicuous and we see that goalies are having a hard time reading him. He reads the play so much better, great first passes. His poise with the puck has improved, potentially due to watching Markov. He avoids doing too much (yesterday was the first time he held the puck trying to do too much, but it was a delayed penalty, so no harm could come of it).

We are watching the elite Subban we have been waiting for. No more wait and see. He could regress, like anyone else, but he is young, willing to learn, talented, skilled, intelligent.

My point is that having a great D at a discount because you took a risk, is a win. Paying him great D money because you weren't sure, is a loss.
You are assuming that there is zero risk associated with giving to a young man a long terms deal. Giving him a bridge contract may prove to be helpful in making sure Subban becomes the great D we all know he can be... and almost already is. This bridge contract offered us an insurance policy in case Subban regresses during the upcoming season, it acts as an incentive factor and it did put less pressure on this young man’s shoulders.

It also gave us much needed cap flexibility (the cap will go down next season) for the upcoming season.

I don't see paying a great D, great D money as a loss btw.

EDIT:

Bridge scenario for the next 8 years; cap hit assuming Subban keeps on progressing: 48M$ (3 - 3 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 7)
No bridge, 8 years deal in 2012-13: 44M$ (5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5)

We are not chatting about a huge impact here: 4M$ over 8 years. This 4M$ gives us all of the above advantages.


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03-14-2013, 10:55 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You are assuming that there is zero risk associated with giving to a young man a long terms deal. Giving him a bridge contract may prove to be helpful in making sure Subban becomes the great D we all know he can be... and almost already is. This bridge contract offered us an insurance policy in case Subban regresses during the upcoming season, it acts as an incentive factor and it did put less pressure on this young man’s shoulders.

It also gave us much needed cap flexibility (the cap will go down next season) for the upcoming season.

I don't see paying a great D, great D money as a loss btw.

EDIT:

Bridge scenario for the next 8 years; cap hit assuming Subban keeps on progressing: 48M$
No bridge, 8 years deal in 2012-13: 44M$

We are not chatting about a huge impact here: 4M$ over 8 years. This 4M$ gives us all of the above advantages.
How big of a risk was it though? Given his attitude and work ethic I would say that the risk was very low maybe 5%.

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03-14-2013, 11:02 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
How big of a risk was it though? Given his attitude and work ethic I would say that the risk was very low maybe 5%.
Very low but it is not 0%!

Basically, assuming Subban becomes the great D we all know he can be, it means that Bergevin would have spent 4M$, over a 8 years period, for (1) insurance policy in case Subban regresses during the upcoming season, (2) much needed cap flexibility in 2013-14, (3) an incentive factor and (4) less pressure on Subban’s shoulders.

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03-14-2013, 11:17 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You are assuming that there is zero risk associated with giving to a young man a long terms deal. Giving him a bridge contract may prove to be helpful in making sure Subban becomes the great D we all know he can be... and almost already is. This bridge contract offered us an insurance policy in case Subban regresses during the upcoming season, it acts as an incentive factor and it did put less pressure on this young man’s shoulders.

It also gave us much needed cap flexibility (the cap will go down next season) for the upcoming season.

I don't see paying a great D, great D money as a loss btw.

EDIT:

Bridge scenario for the next 8 years; cap hit assuming Subban keeps on progressing: 48M$ (3 - 3 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 7)
No bridge, 8 years deal in 2012-13: 44M$ (5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5 - 5,5)

We are not chatting about a huge impact here: 4M$ over 8 years. This 4M$ gives us all of the above advantages.
To me Subban doesn't seem like the type to play one way for one contract or another way for another contract. The hockey season started and Subban did not have a contract. I believe Subban likes the pressure and plays better because of it.

This is a post from back in January: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=592 where I explain my reasoning for his contract.

These are the scenarios that I see now:

This is what I would of wanted:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,750,000$

This is what happened:

2013 ---------> 2,000,000$ (end of the season he is 24)
2013-2014 ---> 3,750,000$ (end of the season he is 25)
Cap hit of $2,875,000
2014-2015 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 26)
2015-2016 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 27)
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 28)
2018-2019 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 29)
2019-2020 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 30)
2020-2021 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 31)
2021-2022 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 32)
2022-2023 ---> 7,000,000$ + (end of the season he is 33)
Cap hit of 7,000,000$ +

So with this, he will have a cap hit of 7,000,000$ + for most of his prime.

Now let's take a look at my scenario
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$ (end of the season he is 24)
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$ (end of the season he is 25)
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 26)
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$ (end of the season he is 27)
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$ (end of the season he is 28)
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$ (end of the season he is 29)
Cap hit of 5,750,000

To stay in compliance with the 35% year to year rule + the 50% of lowest to highest, this is the deal I would offer
2019-2020 ---> 7,000,000$ (end of the season he is 30)
2020-2021 ---> 7,000,000$ (end of the season he is 31)
2021-2022 ---> 5,600,000$ (end of the season he is 32)
2022-2023 ---> 5,600,000$ (end of the season he is 33)
2023-2024 ---> 5,600,000$ (end of the season he is 34)
2024-2025 ---> 3,700,000$ (end of the season he is 35)
2025-2026 ---> 3,700,000$ (end of the season he is 36)
Cap hit of 5,457,000

Now we have an elite D playing for the Habs his entire career, earning 72.7 million dollars over the 13 year span of this deal and he never has a cap hit of 7 million, which is a savings of 1.25-1.5 million dollars of cap space a year for 13 years.

So this 4 million over 8 years you got, well I see it very differently.

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03-14-2013, 11:30 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh, no, not really, lest not forget that being in March right now means P.K. has only 20 more games experience (end of last season to now) - without the Habs training camp - and needing a few games to get to the new system put in place by MT. and maturity doesnt kick in overnight.

I know it's hard to admit for those who were saying (dont remember if you're part of that group) he was already so awesome last season... but P.K. is improving not only at a faster pace than most but an incredible one right now.

Too many things changed/improved over 20 games to be considered "natural developpement".
PK's development since his junior days has been incredible. That's the point.
Just look at his team Canada performances as an example. He went from being the 7th D one year to being a very dominant and key one the next year.
This isn't news. His development over the years has been incredible.

It's also not just 20 games. It's 10 months between his last game of last season and the first of this one. During that span, he had time to reflect, take advice, train and practice. Not to mention, every early 20 year old gains natural maturity on a yearly basis and evolves as a person. He obviously took that very seriously.

That's the point many of us were making, PK is a special player. Don't treat him like a regular one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainIginla View Post
I hope they dont make the same mistake with Gally...
Saving on two years < paying big money for 8 years
Galchenyuk is already making 3.25M. Even if he gets a bridge deal with no increase, it will already be higher than PK.

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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
He's become a much more complete defenseman in the last 20 games than he would have in the next 5 years under our last set of coaches.

PK deserves a ton of credit but this coaching staff deserves just as much.
Under RC? Yea, I agree. It was some of the worst ''coaching'' I've seen in years.
Martin however used to hold a similar speech ''PK needs to do less'' ''keep things more simple'' ''improve his timing/decision making''.

Therrien deserves credit for not being a total idiot, I'll give you that. He's doing good.
But I swear sometimes it's as if people think PK was a troubled player struggling before Therrien took him under his wing. It's retarded.

PK was already effectively shutting down top opponents and could play in every situation. His work ethic is irreproachable apparently, and he takes his career very seriously. What more do you want from a kid?? All he needed to do was to mature as a person, because once you do that, you listen to directives a lot more.
I give very little credit to Therrien for PK. I think pretty much any other coach would have had the same result unless you brought in morons like RC-RL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The good news is the cap will keep going up in the next few years so in 2 years when his new contract kicks in we will be alright
You realize PK is not the only kid that needs to be re-signed. By 2014, a lot of players will be getting significant raises, especially if they keep up with their current progression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Very low but it is not 0%!

Basically, assuming Subban becomes the great D we all know he can be, it means that Bergevin would have spent 4M$, over a 8 years period, for (1) insurance policy in case Subban regresses during the upcoming season, (2) much needed cap flexibility in 2013-14, (3) an incentive factor and (4) less pressure on Subban’s shoulders.
You realize that every time you sign a contract there's a risk. Even if it's an established veteran, there's always a risk. The question is whether or not he's worth that risk.
The risk was very low, as you pointed out.
There was very little doubt that PK wouldn't continue his progression. I mean, why wouldn't he? But even if he did, he was still playing like a 4M worthy Dman. He was effectively shutting down the top opponents consistently, and can be used as a #1 pairing D in every situation. So even if his progression halted, he was still a solid Dman.
Basically, in order for him not to be worth 4M, he would have needed to regress. I don't understand how anybody could think he'd regress.

Bottom line is, PK was well worth the risk.

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03-14-2013, 11:34 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Very low but it is not 0%!

Basically, assuming Subban becomes the great D we all know he can be, it means that Bergevin would have spent 4M$, over a 8 years period, for (1) insurance policy in case Subban regresses during the upcoming season, (2) much needed cap flexibility in 2013-14, (3) an incentive factor and (4) less pressure on Subban’s shoulders.
We don't have a cap problem for 2013-14, we will have nearly 16.5m cap space, with only Ryder, and Desharnais looking for "big" contracts. The 1.5-2m in savings that PK's bridge contract is giving us is not needed. The 1.5-2m for the 6 years after his bridge deal would have been more useful.

Subban doesn't need incentive or less pressure he is highly driven and thrives on pressure. All the bridge deal does is provide insurance for an unlikely occurance at the cost of reduced cap flexibility going forward after 2 years and the risk of alienating a core player (Doesn't seem to have happend).

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03-14-2013, 12:37 PM
  #145
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If you guys want to have some fun, go on the Ottawa board Out of Town thread to read some of their assessments on Subban's game.

Apparently, Subban is a slightly better version than Ryan Ellis, has only one move (spin-o-rama), is not good to carry the puck and looks awkward.

I know some of our fans are ridiculous on the main board when they suggest Subban's offensive game is on par with Karlsson's, but I think some of these fans are the most desillusional I've ever seen. Ridiculous.

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03-14-2013, 12:40 PM
  #146
Dr Gonzo
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Sens fans are very insecure about other good PMD.

Ottawa residents are insecure by nature, but Sens fans even more-so.

Let them have it. Kissing their Karlsson posters before bed is the best part of their day.

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03-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #147
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
If you guys want to have some fun, go on the Ottawa board Out of Town thread to read some of their assessments on Subban's game.

Apparently, Subban is a slightly better version than Ryan Ellis, has only one move (spin-o-rama), is not good to carry the puck and looks awkward.

I know some of our fans are ridiculous on the main board when they suggest Subban's offensive game is on par with Karlsson's, but I think some of these fans are the most desillusional I've ever seen. Ridiculous.
3 years ago Habs fans were certain that Subban would be the better offensive player between him and Karlsson. All teams have fans that are...

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03-14-2013, 12:45 PM
  #148
HiggsBozon
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Sens fans are very insecure about other good PMD.

Ottawa residents are insecure by nature, but Sens fans even more-so.

Let them have it. Kissing their Karlsson posters before bed is the best part of their day.
Not like they have much more to celebrate about. Pretty pathetic that Karlsson is still tied for 1st in goals on their team at this point, forwards included.

Their best goal scorer would be ranked 8th on our team, but still, we are the boring team to watch

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03-14-2013, 12:54 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Not like they have much more to celebrate about. Pretty pathetic that Karlsson is still tied for 1st in goals on their team at this point, forwards included.

Their best goal scorer would be ranked 8th on our team, but still, we are the boring team to watch
Sens fans should look between the pipes to see the main reason why this team is still in a playoffs position. The rest of the team just sucks.

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03-14-2013, 01:51 PM
  #150
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It is not win/win at all. Some of us on here wanted to sign Subban to the max this year in efforts to save A LOT of cap hit down the road. Right now Subban is on par with a point per game, which is around 7 million a season. For your logic, you want to sign him to a max 8 years for 7 million a year (7 just seems right since Karlson is making 6.5, so if we factor in inflation...) which is a cap hit of 7 a year. Now if we signed him to a deal this year, taking into account that he would of taken less in the first few years, I am sure we could of had him at around 5.5/6 cap hit for the next 8 years, which brings him to 31 years old and a UFA.

I don't believe that MB made any mistake in the contract that he offered and that he stuck to his guns. I also don't believe that if Subban got the long term contract this year, he would play any different.

This is the year that Subban puts all the doubters to bed. He is now proving. I don't understand how you can say "the great D he can become", this year he is playing like an elite D. He has played in 3 seasons now with Montreal (The playoffs for me count as a season), this is his 4th. He has progressed leaps and bounds from last year. Has already the same goal total in 1/4 of the games. He is no longer taking stupid penalties. His adjusted his shot, it is now very inconspicuous and we see that goalies are having a hard time reading him. He reads the play so much better, great first passes. His poise with the puck has improved, potentially due to watching Markov. He avoids doing too much (yesterday was the first time he held the puck trying to do too much, but it was a delayed penalty, so no harm could come of it).

We are watching the elite Subban we have been waiting for. No more wait and see. He could regress, like anyone else, but he is young, willing to learn, talented, skilled, intelligent.

My point is that having a great D at a discount because you took a risk, is a win. Paying him great D money because you weren't sure, is a loss.
Take a look at what having an additional $4 million can get this team in the offseason.

Your gripe would be legit if Subban indicated he is leaving Montreal.

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