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Will the "Zucc" be back? (3/25: Agrees to terms)

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Old
03-13-2013, 10:05 AM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Hagelin is the (easily) superior NHLer. So....that's fairly meaningless to the Rangers.
Id say "easily" the best, if put in a worthless environment.

I am not at all that sure that Zucc couldn't do really well in a good environment.

I think Zucc is much narrower than Hagelin, and undoutedbly needs support on the ice in certain areas (what undersized offensive player does not). But Zucc actually did pretty well his rookie year in NY playing with a soapmore in Stepan (who also needed alot of support at the time) and a very one dimensional player in Wojtek Wolski.

Zucc is pretty good in some areas, but I do not think he is extremely special or something like that. But we keep sending alot of players on the ice that just aren't very good hockey players, and every game I see against lesser teams, we are hurting because some of those team's suspects on 3rd and 4th lines are hockey players while we just have a great shortage of players that can play the game. We have a team with Boyle's and Powes and Gaby's and Richards -- but very few just solid hockey players.

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03-13-2013, 10:57 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Why isn't Zucc on the ice in NY? I am starting to feel that its ridiculous if we don't sign Zucc.

I mean, besides salary, pedigree and history and what not, what forwards do we have that actually are better hockey players than him? Nash, Cally, Stepan (?), Gabby (?), Hagelin and ?

Richards? (why? He has potential on the point on a PP build for him, sure, we don't have that.)

Pyatt? (come on)

Boyle?

Powe?

Kreider? (lol)

JT Miller? (not even close)

Gabby and Richards are out on the ice playing worth less hockey. New York Rangers is a hockey team. Plays the game of hockey. The other team won't give us any handicap because Richards makes 9.5m skating on his leather and Gabby skating around out there in no mans land making 7.5m. Certain players are extremely good at certain things. If we learned anything from 97' - 04' it is that that do not help you at all unless you put those type of players in the right environment in this team game.
I'm going to try to explain my POV in a logical manner.

1) I think it's a mistake to talk about Zuccarello as if he's a known commodity.

2) The problem with your point is you've named 6 players who are better than him (and, yes, Richards is a better player). So that means that at best Zuccarello would likely not play on the top two lines. And while he's shown flashes of offense in the NHL (not consistent production but flashes) he has also shown that he does not have the defensive game or the physical play to play a bottom six role. While I'm not directly comparing the two, the issue with Zuccarello is the same as it was with Marcel Hossa — can he contribute enough offensively to warrant a place in the lineup because he won't add anything otherwise.

3) The YouTube videos are exciting and pretty. Yes, they show skill, but they also show the lack of defense in the KHL. On most of them if Zuccarello did that in the NHL, he would be knocked on his ass because there's a physical element to the NHL that there just isn't in other leagues. He would not be the first to flourish oversees and not make the adjustment to the NHL. Jiri Dopita couldn't. Jarkko Immomen couldn't. Christian Dube was a flop here but a very effective player in Europe. The aforementioned Marcel Hossa couldn't make it in the NHL.

4) I think the hype surrounding Zuccarello is more based on "what if" than "what he's done". His production is in a very small sample size. Petr Prucha actually had a larger sample size and that larger sample played out to be the exception, not the rule. Blame Renney, Shanhanan or whoever, but the fact is he never duplicated the success he had anywhere else.

5) He still has to overcome defensive issues and his lack of size. He may be able to do a good job of that in the KHL where the ice is bigger and the there is less physical play. The problem is those are probably two of the hardest things of overcome in the NHL.

Please try to see these as just my opinions. I would love to be proven wrong by Zuccarello. I just think that right now the idea of Zuccarello is more appealing than Zuccarello himself.

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03-13-2013, 11:16 AM
  #528
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The guy can be awesome in Europe but he has neither the build or the kind of game that Tortorella likes to employ. Therefore, unless he developed a strong defensive game or Tortorella decides not to care he is not going to help the Rangers. That is just FACT.

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03-13-2013, 11:18 AM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm going to try to explain my POV in a logical manner.

1) I think it's a mistake to talk about Zuccarello as if he's a known commodity.

2) The problem with your point is you've named 6 players who are better than him (and, yes, Richards is a better player). So that means that at best Zuccarello would likely not play on the top two lines. And while he's shown flashes of offense in the NHL (not consistent production but flashes) he has also shown that he does not have the defensive game or the physical play to play a bottom six role. While I'm not directly comparing the two, the issue with Zuccarello is the same as it was with Marcel Hossa — can he contribute enough offensively to warrant a place in the lineup because he won't add anything otherwise.

3) The YouTube videos are exciting and pretty. Yes, they show skill, but they also show the lack of defense in the KHL. On most of them if Zuccarello did that in the NHL, he would be knocked on his ass because there's a physical element to the NHL that there just isn't in other leagues. He would not be the first to flourish oversees and not make the adjustment to the NHL. Jiri Dopita couldn't. Jarkko Immomen couldn't. Christian Dube was a flop here but a very effective player in Europe. The aforementioned Marcel Hossa couldn't make it in the NHL.

4) I think the hype surrounding Zuccarello is more based on "what if" than "what he's done". His production is in a very small sample size. Petr Prucha actually had a larger sample size and that larger sample played out to be the exception, not the rule. Blame Renney, Shanhanan or whoever, but the fact is he never duplicated the success he had anywhere else.

5) He still has to overcome defensive issues and his lack of size. He may be able to do a good job of that in the KHL where the ice is bigger and the there is less physical play. The problem is those are probably two of the hardest things of overcome in the NHL.

Please try to see these as just my opinions. I would love to be proven wrong by Zuccarello. I just think that right now the idea of Zuccarello is more appealing than Zuccarello himself.
So.....what you're saying is your hate Zuccarello??

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03-13-2013, 11:19 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Hagelin is the (easily) superior NHLer. So....that's fairly meaningless to the Rangers.

Yeah, it was not long back when Hagelin played 37 straight games in NHL without making 1 single point. Like you dont understand the love for Zuccarello I do not understand the love for Hagelin

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03-13-2013, 11:35 AM
  #531
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singing- Then I can set you straight in a logical manner because what is unknown to you is known to me, and I am not exactly sure how to put it, but you are just not looking at things from the right perspective.

Just as you can point at "Marcel Hossa" you could point at Brad Richards who is slow and weak and can't stickhandle and what not scoring 95 pts in the NHL, or Marian Gaborik who plays with his head under his arm scoring 40 goals repeated times or Evander Kane being somewhat of a goto player for his team in the NHL while they in the KHL looked at him and thought he was some fan who were trying to pretend to be a hockey player using a fake ID and so forth.

You see players coming from Europe and failing or making it in the NHL, but you never see a NHLer going to Europe and almost never see a NHLer going even to antoher NHL team. And when you see the later, you 9 out of 10 times see him go to a NHL team that knows what they get and get something they know they can support.

You say that Brad Richards is a better hockey player than Zucc, but I don't know, he is certainly not better in a ton of areas which are included in the typical aspects that you attribute a "hockey player". If Hagelin was playing in the KHL, you'd definitely say like come on, Gaborik is of course better than Hagelin, almost indicating that like are you seriously saying that this Hagelin kid would be better than Marian Gaborik??? -- but I don't know, because in the games I've seen I wouldn't hesitate one second to say that so far this season Carl Hagelin has been more valuble for us than Marian Gaborik has. Undoutedbly IMO. It would hurt us alot more if Hags went down right now than if Gabs went down. Gaborik and Richards are labelled as stars because they can do stuff not many players can in this league. Richards can score 95 pts if playing on team with a PP designed for him and Gabby can score 40 if he gets to focus on skating around on the ice 82 games in a row putting pucks on the net, while not giving his team any momentum on a shift by shift basis. On a game by game basis this season we are seing the Frank Nielsens or Lars Ellers contribute more in games against us than Gabby and Richards provide for us.

For me it boils to a rephrased version of your number 5):
5) He still has to overcome defensive issues and his lack of size. He may be able to do a good job of that in the KHL where the ice is bigger and the there is less physical play. The problem is those are probably two of the hardest things of overcome in the NHL.

It would put it like this:
Is it better for us to have his defensive issues and lack of size over the lack of ability we have to play hockey in some of our other players?

And I just think what we see on the ice speak for itself.

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03-13-2013, 11:39 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by KenGuru View Post
Yeah, it was not long back when Hagelin played 37 straight games in NHL without making 1 single point. Like you dont understand the love for Zuccarello I do not understand the love for Hagelin
Because Hagelin is a player generating t a 50 point pace entirely at even strength, is one of the fastest skaters in a league based on speed, and is only in his second season.

Zucc, on the other hand, was force fed power play time when he was here, and still din't match Hagelin's game by game productivity.

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03-13-2013, 11:44 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
he has also shown that he does not have the defensive game or the physical play to play a bottom six role.
A bottom six role is what you make it. It doesn't have to be a purely defensive checking role. You're allowed to have a third line that can focus on offense. And sure it might give up more goals but the objective isn't to minimize goals against rather than to maximize GF-GA on any given situation.

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03-13-2013, 11:50 AM
  #534
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Zucc would be perfect on a puck possession team like Detroit. I like him, but I do not think he fits our system at all. Doesn't keep up with the play. I'm not opposed to bringing him in, but I won't be expecting great things.

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03-13-2013, 12:10 PM
  #535
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A bottom six role is what you make it. It doesn't have to be a purely defensive checking role. You're allowed to have a third line that can focus on offense. And sure it might give up more goals but the objective isn't to minimize goals against rather than to maximize GF-GA on any given situation.
On this team you have to play defense.

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03-13-2013, 12:10 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
So.....what you're saying is your hate Zuccarello??
I'm sure some will take it that way.

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03-13-2013, 12:17 PM
  #537
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I'm sure some will take it that way.
you've done a fine job of putting to rest, the myth of zuccarello.

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03-13-2013, 12:25 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Just as you can point at "Marcel Hossa" you could point at Brad Richards who is slow and weak and can't stickhandle and what not scoring 95 pts in the NHL, or Marian Gaborik who plays with his head under his arm scoring 40 goals repeated times or Evander Kane being somewhat of a goto player for his team in the NHL while they in the KHL looked at him and thought he was some fan who were trying to pretend to be a hockey player using a fake ID and so forth.
I really am having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here. What I will say is Richards and Gaborik's play is hardly an endorsement of Zuccarello's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
You see players coming from Europe and failing or making it in the NHL, but you never see a NHLer going to Europe and almost never see a NHLer going even to antoher NHL team. And when you see the later, you 9 out of 10 times see him go to a NHL team that knows what they get and get something they know they can support.
Again, I'm not sure what you're point is.

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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
You say that Brad Richards is a better hockey player than Zucc, but I don't know, he is certainly not better in a ton of areas which are included in the typical aspects that you attribute a "hockey player".
Brad Richards is a proven commodity. He might be on the downside on his career but he is a proven good/great NHL player. He may not be playing great right now, but there is a body of work that you can't overlook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
If Hagelin was playing in the KHL, you'd definitely say like come on, Gaborik is of course better than Hagelin, almost indicating that like are you seriously saying that this Hagelin kid would be better than Marian Gaborik??? -- but I don't know, because in the games I've seen I wouldn't hesitate one second to say that so far this season Carl Hagelin has been more valuble for us than Marian Gaborik has..
But Hagelin isn't playing in the KHL. He is producing in the NHL. And right now he is playing better than Gaborik, in NHL.

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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Undoutedbly IMO. It would hurt us alot more if Hags went down right now than if Gabs went down. Gaborik and Richards are labelled as stars because they can do stuff not many players can in this league. Richards can score 95 pts if playing on team with a PP designed for him and Gabby can score 40 if he gets to focus on skating around on the ice 82 games in a row putting pucks on the net, while not giving his team any momentum on a shift by shift basis. On a game by game basis this season we are seing the Frank Nielsens or Lars Ellers contribute more in games against us than Gabby and Richards provide for us.
What does any of this have to do with my points on Zuccarello? Or are you inferring that I have some sort of anti-European (Scandinavian) player bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
For me it boils to a rephrased version of your number 5):
5) He still has to overcome defensive issues and his lack of size. He may be able to do a good job of that in the KHL where the ice is bigger and the there is less physical play. The problem is those are probably two of the hardest things of overcome in the NHL.

It would put it like this:
Is it better for us to have his defensive issues and lack of size over the lack of ability we have to play hockey in some of our other players?

And I just think what we see on the ice speak for itself.
He has not produced offensively where you can over look his other issues.

Again, the fact that other players are struggling is not an endorsement of Zuccarello.


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03-13-2013, 12:25 PM
  #539
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Yeah, it was not long back when Hagelin played 37 straight games in NHL without making 1 single point. Like you dont understand the love for Zuccarello I do not understand the love for Hagelin
Wasn't 37 games. He struggled in the playoffs as a rookie. Big whoop. He's shown himself to be infinitely more valuable to this team than Zucc ever has.

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03-13-2013, 12:27 PM
  #540
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you've done a fine job of putting to rest, the myth of zuccarello.
I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong if/when he comes over.

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03-13-2013, 12:28 PM
  #541
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Yeah, it was not long back when Hagelin played 37 straight games in NHL without making 1 single point. Like you dont understand the love for Zuccarello I do not understand the love for Hagelin
Hagelin has shown he can contribute and be a productive player even if he's not scoring.

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03-13-2013, 12:54 PM
  #542
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Wasn't 37 games. He struggled in the playoffs as a rookie. Big whoop. He's shown himself to be infinitely more valuable to this team than Zucc ever has.
Two totally different players, and the Rangers could use both. As far as I know, this discussion isnīt about Zuke replacing Hagelin......

Hagelin is one of the fastest, maybe THE fastest, player in the league. Without this speed, who knows if he would be as dominant in the NHL as now.

Btw, Zuke and Hags played great together on the same line in Hartford....

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03-13-2013, 12:56 PM
  #543
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I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong if/when he comes over.
you won't be proven wrong because we tried this already and your points were proven correct.

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03-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #544
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Wasn't 37 games. He struggled in the playoffs as a rookie. Big whoop. He's shown himself to be infinitely more valuable to this team than Zucc ever has.

You seem to forget fast. Season 2010/2011 NYR would not have reached the playoff without Zuccarello. Because of his ability to make NYR win games on shoot-out (6 extra points). And his OT- goal against Carolina who was the other part who fought for that spot. Torts admitted that time that Zuccarello had contributed well.

But I know what you mean. I rest my case

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03-13-2013, 05:37 PM
  #545
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I really am having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here. What I will say is Richards and Gaborik's play is hardly an endorsement of Zuccarello's.

Again, I'm not sure what you're point is.

Brad Richards is a proven commodity. He might be on the downside on his career but he is a proven good/great NHL player. He may not be playing great right now, but there is a body of work that you can't overlook.

But Hagelin isn't playing in the KHL. He is producing in the NHL. And right now he is playing better than Gaborik, in NHL.

What does any of this have to do with my points on Zuccarello? Or are you inferring that I have some sort of anti-European (Scandinavian) player bias?

He has not produced offensively where you can over look his other issues.

Again, the fact that other players are struggling is not an endorsement of Zuccarello.
Haha, come on, Richards is on the downside of his career now??? He is 30 y/o (not 40). Did you ever see him play for Tampa? He has never been better than this. He must be a real jojo physically since he has had 60 pts season on a regular basis for his career. Everyone who watch other teams in this league play said this was what we would be getting, and its what we are getting.

You believe that a kid sucks because he didn't perform in a worthless environment in the NHL. You believe that a player "lost it" if he scored 95 pts one year and than 65 pts the other. You believe that a player who scores in the 60s for CBJ never can be anything special, because a great player put up great stats (see Nash).

Sure, Zucc can't be great on line with a half weak soap more and Wolski who wont back check. He isnt Pat Kane II. But we aren't talking about that, we are talking about if he could help us. We dress 12 forwards and play 9 of them, most of the time they struggle to get anything going.

Zucc could help.

I won't even bother to comment on the rest of the crap you are posting.

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03-13-2013, 05:50 PM
  #546
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We have three guys who are creating anything when they are on the ice: Nash, Hagelin and Callahan (Gabby is excluded if anything of substance is expected from him given that he is a 7m player). Stepan doesn't creates very little, but he has made some really good plays when getting the puck in dangerous situations and deserves credit for that of course.

Zucc has created alot when given a chance. I don't care that he only scores 0.5 PPG from our 4th line. You don't score a PPG from a 4th line

Play him with Stepan and Nash, let Richards benefit from Hagelin and let Cally carry a good 3rd line.

Zucc-Stepan-Nash
Hagelin-BR-Gabby
Pyatt-Halpern-Callahan
Powe-Boyle-Haley

And give JT some rest.

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03-14-2013, 11:54 AM
  #547
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Another interview with Zuccarello in the norwegian newspaper Dagbladet today. Totally relaxed about the situation. Basically only knows that there is talks with the club and the agent. Other then that he is just focused on "Camp Roy" for the national team.

To sum up his thoughts about the ongoing matter:

- A return to NHL is of course interesting
- Needs a fair chance to make the team, but knows he is not the one to make demands, and that he needs to show it on the ice.
- Two way contract not an option.
- Says nothing about money, but it is no secret that he will be willingly to take fairy big salary reduction to play in the NHL.

The national team coach Roy Johansen feels that Zuke should turn down an offer from NHL if it comes. Of course mostly because he wants Zuccarello to play for Norway in the WC.....

http://www.dbtv.no/?vid=2225850707001

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03-14-2013, 03:47 PM
  #548
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Another interview with Zuccarello in the norwegian newspaper Dagbladet today. Totally relaxed about the situation. Basically only knows that there is talks with the club and the agent. Other then that he is just focused on "Camp Roy" for the national team.

To sum up his thoughts about the ongoing matter:

- A return to NHL is of course interesting
- Needs a fair chance to make the team, but knows he is not the one to make demands, and that he needs to show it on the ice.
- Two way contract not an option.
- Says nothing about money, but it is no secret that he will be willingly to take fairy big salary reduction to play in the NHL.

The national team coach Roy Johansen feels that Zuke should turn down an offer from NHL if it comes. Of course mostly because he wants Zuccarello to play for Norway in the WC.....

http://www.dbtv.no/?vid=2225850707001
Thanks for the summary. The only words I recognized from the video were Mats, Zuccarello, and NY Rangers.

On one hand I keep thinking what are they waiting for? On the other hand there must be at least a possibility if they (Slats and his agent) keep talking.

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03-14-2013, 03:59 PM
  #549
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Haha, come on, Richards is on the downside of his career now??? He is 30 y/o (not 40). Did you ever see him play for Tampa? He has never been better than this. He must be a real jojo physically since he has had 60 pts season on a regular basis for his career. Everyone who watch other teams in this league play said this was what we would be getting, and its what we are getting.

You believe that a kid sucks because he didn't perform in a worthless environment in the NHL. You believe that a player "lost it" if he scored 95 pts one year and than 65 pts the other. You believe that a player who scores in the 60s for CBJ never can be anything special, because a great player put up great stats (see Nash).

Sure, Zucc can't be great on line with a half weak soap more and Wolski who wont back check. He isnt Pat Kane II. But we aren't talking about that, we are talking about if he could help us. We dress 12 forwards and play 9 of them, most of the time they struggle to get anything going.

Zucc could help.

I won't even bother to comment on the rest of the crap you are posting.
Brad Richards has scored 797 points in 877 regular season NHL games. This equates to scoring 74.51 points per an 82 game season. So no, he is not a 60 point player. Of course if he want to count his seasons of 11 points in 12 games, or 48 points in 56 games to "prove" your point, go right ahead. I'm just pointing out the facts.

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03-14-2013, 04:03 PM
  #550
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Thanks for the summary. The only words I recognized from the video were Mats, Zuccarello, and NY Rangers.

On one hand I keep thinking what are they waiting for? On the other hand there must be at least a possibility if they (Slats and his agent) keep talking.
My thoughts exactly. Since nothing seem to happen, Iīm almost certain there will be no deal. If the Rangers really wanted him back, they would have offered him a deal by now.

Btw, I donīt get this pissing contest going on. Zuccarello is not gonna replace either Richards or Hagelin. WTF? If then bring Zuke in, itīs because he can add something to the team, not replace Hags or Richards.

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