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How can Depres be viewed as our 7th best D man?

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Old
03-13-2013, 04:30 PM
  #51
Sidney the Kidney
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On the NBC/TSN broadcast, they told the story how another coach had called Bylsma to ask about Eaton. Apparently that team was interested in potentially signing him. Bylsma then discussed it with his assistant coaches, then went to Shero to suggest the Pens should sign Eaton.

So it certainly sounds like adding Eaton and giving him playing time at the expense of the youngsters was 100% Bylsma's idea.

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03-13-2013, 05:05 PM
  #52
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a Despres-Letang pairing is just so scary for the opposition. Either can join the rush and make a serious impact if the opportunity arises.

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03-13-2013, 05:10 PM
  #53
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I dont think that despres is our 7th best dman I just think that Shero/Bylsma are protecting him and trying to put him in as many good situations as possible with the intent of hiding possible deficiencies with a potential trade of him upcoming.

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03-13-2013, 05:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
I dont think that despres is our 7th best dman I just think that Shero/Bylsma are protecting him and trying to put him in as many good situations as possible with the intent of hiding possible deficiencies with a potential trade of him upcoming.
If that's their master plan, then it's definitely succeeding. Kid looks great.

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03-13-2013, 05:17 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Sounds like whining and crying to me. See Exibit A: Beau Bennett. He seems to have found a way to stay in the line-up. Maybe Tangradi and Strait just weren't good enough to crack the line-up here.

I still believe that all of this shuffling who plays on D is for the purposes of further evaluation for a trade. We have Despres who can play now. Dumoulin will be ready next year, and maybe even Morrow and Harrington. I still believe at least 1 guy gets moved, and I think RS wants to further evaluate the 8 guys on the roster now to see who he can and can't move.
If it was 1 guy, sure, but 2 people basically saying the same thing means it's not whining and crying like you want to make it out to be. Bennett isn't getting benched because Shero wants to see him be used as a top 6 winger.

The reason Strait was put on waivers is because Bylsma wanted Despres up and apparently moving Lovejoy wasn't an option at that point which seems asinine now, but yeah, you want a certain guy up over another guy who we end up losing and in the end Bylsma benches him every few games.

Does that make sense to you?

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03-13-2013, 05:24 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
I dont think that despres is our 7th best dman I just think that Shero/Bylsma are protecting him and trying to put him in as many good situations as possible with the intent of hiding possible deficiencies with a potential trade of him upcoming.
That would be a stupid move. Unless it was a guy that won't be a rental in the top 6, Despres could be a damn good future partner for Letang. Everyone that has a hard on for Harrington, Dumoulin, Morrow, etc need to understand that right now, Despres has NHL experience and is proving he belongs in the NHL, the others aren't NHL'ers yet and until they show they can be, they're potential guys that might or might not work out.

Michalek looked like a great idea too until he came here.

I like to see how someone looks on the team before I fall in love with the idea of him on the damn team which people here do way too often and it makes discussing things hard because everyone has this romanticized idea of a guy being on the team some day and blah blah.

The defense looked much better, fluid even, without Engelland. As much as I like the guy for his hard work and attitude, Despres should not be sitting every few games. Although 8 games isn't a lot, it is when it's 8 out of the 27 the team has played so far.

If there is a defenseman Shero is going to move, it should be Niskanen. His contract is good and he's rebounded back to being a solid top 6 defenseman. I keep Despres over him no matter what.

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Old
03-13-2013, 05:26 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
On the NBC/TSN broadcast, they told the story how another coach had called Bylsma to ask about Eaton. Apparently that team was interested in potentially signing him. Bylsma then discussed it with his assistant coaches, then went to Shero to suggest the Pens should sign Eaton.

So it certainly sounds like adding Eaton and giving him playing time at the expense of the youngsters was 100% Bylsma's idea.
I heard that too and it was not encouraging / not what you want to hear. You get a guy for nothing (who is basically over the hill) and someone shows an interest.... YOU TRADE HIM and get something for nothing. We probably could've gotten a 6th round pick or something. Why not... compile some picks and package them all as part of your deal to get Uber-winger.

I wonder if Guerin, Adams and Eaton have something on Bylsma from 2009 that will ruin his marriage or job... so they get to stay and play / contribute in whatever ways they can. Maybe there's more to this Potash thing... hmm. If Godard comes back we know it's true. Disco banged some puck bunny while she was doing a handstand on the Cup or something and they got photos. #Tinfoil #Blackmail

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03-13-2013, 05:27 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
On the NBC/TSN broadcast, they told the story how another coach had called Bylsma to ask about Eaton. Apparently that team was interested in potentially signing him. Bylsma then discussed it with his assistant coaches, then went to Shero to suggest the Pens should sign Eaton.

So it certainly sounds like adding Eaton and giving him playing time at the expense of the youngsters was 100% Bylsma's idea.
Eaton was one of the guys Shero was really familiar with in Nashville and was happy to bring him on board in his 2nd year as GM.

I doubt it took much convincing.

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03-13-2013, 05:36 PM
  #59
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I don't mind having Eaton as the 8th guy, it's nice to have some experience in that spot but I don't think he should be getting more than the occasional game in place of Despres especially but Bortuzzo to, I mean the only advantage he has over them right now is the PK and that's more due to experience than anything else.

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Old
03-13-2013, 06:46 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
I want to try to keep this logical, factual, and to the point.

I "know" why he is being scratched, but also know that this reason does not follow any logic whatsoever, ie Bylsma logic. Depres has been IMO the 3rd best D man for the Pens to date this year, yet he falls down (I think he stepped on puck IIRC) on one play that leads to a goal against in the NYI game and is wiped from the lineup.

Areas of note:

Depres is 2nd on the team in +- rate behind Letang.

Depres has allowed the lowest GAA/60min of all Penguins D men. This shows that he is anything but a defensive liability.

Depres has the 3rd best zone start adjusted corsi among all Pens D men. When he is out there, the Pens are winning the possession battle. This indicates his other results should be maintainable and aren't driven by luck of save %s or shooting %s.
Blue circles are positive (white negative) and the size indicates the value. "Big blues are good". Big whites are bad. The context in which the players are used are shown in the position of the circles. Toughest is top left, easiest bottom right.

Depres has the 3rd highest goals for rate when he is on the ice. Pens are scoring at a high rate when he is out there. He probably isn't being shifted with the Pens top line either.

Depres has played against some of the toughest competition of all Penguins Dmen. It's not like he is only dominating scrub-ish 4th liners.

So after knowing all these things, please explain to me WHY Depres is being scratched......ever? Is one isolated mistake a significant enough mistake to completely ignore all the positives that Depres has provided the Pens to date?

I am still waiting for this Pens team to actually dress their best available team to see what they are capable of. They are constantly, intentionally handicapping themselves by not playing/dressing their best players. I could go on and on about this, but it is an alarming trend that shows the Pens can't properly evaluate their own players.
Simple... Dan "The Disco Dolt" Bylsma is a fuggin' idiot.

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03-13-2013, 06:48 PM
  #61
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Despres should be playing every night. The question is between Bort, Engo and Eaton. I think Eaton has been better than Engo since we signed him. I honestly haven't seen enough of Bort to say; he's been out a while.

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03-13-2013, 08:19 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
Simple... Dan "The Disco Dolt" Bylsma is a fuggin' idiot.
With the decisions he makes, I have to agree.

He is hurting the chances of this team by dressing the wrong players and playing the wrong players in certain situations.

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03-13-2013, 08:40 PM
  #63
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With the decisions he makes, I have to agree.

He is hurting the chances of this team by dressing the wrong players and playing the wrong players in certain situations.
Just wait until the playoff come and he gets his ass handed to him, by being out coached in a 7 game series... AGAIN.

This team is winning no because of his great coaching... they are winning on talent alone. That is fine in the regular season, but come playoff time the out come will yet again be the same as it was the past 4 years...

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03-13-2013, 08:50 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
So who are they showcasing? Mark Eaton?
I still feel that the 2 most likely are Nisky and Orpik.

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03-13-2013, 08:57 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
If it was 1 guy, sure, but 2 people basically saying the same thing means it's not whining and crying like you want to make it out to be. Bennett isn't getting benched because Shero wants to see him be used as a top 6 winger.

The reason Strait was put on waivers is because Bylsma wanted Despres up and apparently moving Lovejoy wasn't an option at that point which seems asinine now, but yeah, you want a certain guy up over another guy who we end up losing and in the end Bylsma benches him every few games.

Does that make sense to you?
Once again, I think that Bylsma wants Despres here, and that come playoffs he will be in the lineup. I really think that at least 1 veteran Dman will be moved, and they are evaluating which player can be moved. I think they have Despres penciled in so there is no reason to need to see him every night. Getting him experience would be nice, but honestly, what is the difference heading into the playoffs if he would have got 8-10 more games.....Not much.

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03-13-2013, 09:41 PM
  #66
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Bylsma said he wanted to add a veteran D like Eaton to the group because they weren't 100% sure they'd be able to at the deadline. Eaton also brings a calming presence that the D needed. I don't really have a problem with the way they're using these guys.

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03-13-2013, 09:46 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
Bylsma said he wanted to add a veteran D like Eaton to the group because they weren't 100% sure they'd be able to at the deadline. Eaton also brings a calming presence that the D needed. I don't really have a problem with the way they're using these guys.
I do. The fact that Despres is in the press-box more often than not in favor of a guy like D.E. is an in excusable JOKE!

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03-13-2013, 09:49 PM
  #68
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1: I don't believe that anyone is being show cased. Eaton is in the lineup, and he isn't being showcased at all.
2: There is no justification for not playing Despres with how he has performed this season.
3: This isn't new, vets over rookies is the norm, more so for Bylsma than your average coach.... who will also tend that way.
4: The main drag is that if we aren't letting him earn his spot during the season, we are the more unlikely to see him get the nod when the heat is on in the playoffs. That's the time when Bylsma would be even more likely to go with vets.... and at that time it is even understandable unless the gulf in quality is very serious.
5: I don't believe that Orpik is at all likely to be traded this season. If there is any D-regular getting traded, it is going to be Niskanen, as he is the player made most obviously redundant by the first guys we have coming in (Despres and Morrow).

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03-13-2013, 09:51 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
I do. The fact that Despres is in the press-box more often than not in favor of a guy like D.E. is an in excusable JOKE!
Despres and Engelland play entirely different roles for this team. I don't have a problem with it. I'd love for the enforcer to be played by a 4th liner instead of a D though given how bad that line is.

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03-13-2013, 09:55 PM
  #70
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I understand trying to get Eaton some ice time but Despres should be playing every game. And, IMHO, with Letang getting top minutes.

Martin obviously is in the lineup, but I think Orpik should be sat for his performance. He's been our weakest dman this season.

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03-13-2013, 10:52 PM
  #71
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Call me crazy, but Despres has been the most reliable defensemen, in terms of defense; all season.

Yeah, I said it. Better than Martin (Who's been great this year; Crow taste nasty, you *******) and Letang (been caught out of place) and Niskanen (still has his moments).

Don't even get me started on Orpik. If he doesn't start hitting people, he's going to hit the road.

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03-14-2013, 12:51 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
1: I don't believe that anyone is being show cased. Eaton is in the lineup, and he isn't being showcased at all.
2: There is no justification for not playing Despres with how he has performed this season.
4: The main drag is that if we aren't letting him earn his spot during the season, we are the more unlikely to see him get the nod when the heat is on in the playoffs. That's the time when Bylsma would be even more likely to go with vets.... and at that time it is even understandable unless the gulf in quality is very serious.
5: I don't believe that Orpik is at all likely to be traded this season. If there is any D-regular getting traded, it is going to be Niskanen, as he is the player made most obviously redundant by the first guys we have coming in (Despres and Morrow).
I'll just respond to a few of your points, for the sake of counter-argument:

1) Everyone is being showcased. Whether it's internally (i.e. to see if a guy like Eaton can perform/play in the NHL, which he is showing us he can), or externally (think how it would kill the value of a Niskanen or Orpik if they were made a healthy scratch). The fact simply is that there aren't enough defensive spots to go around. In fact, I would suggest that the guys who are NOT playing at times (such as Engo and Bortuzzo) are the guys more likely to stay with the club, because the organization sees & believes in their ability to contribute and wants them on this team going forward, so they are safe in that regard; whereas perhaps guys like Niskanen or Orpik could be more likely to be moved.

2) It's not about performance, it's about balancing the development of the player, not giving too much responsibility too soon, and keeping other guys who are likely to play key roles fresh (i.e. having Engo sit for 10 games would be brutal for his play). At least when Despres is dressing, he sees significant minutes; unlike other teams who have brough prospects along pre-maturely and then they see 5 minutes of ice-time per game. Also, let's not forget that while Despres has been awesome and made far fewer mistakes recently, he was making a lot more mistakes earlier. This is just part of the development and he is improving, so we should be happy, period.

4) He has earned his spot this season. That's why he's still on this roster and getting an NHL paycheck, and that's why he has been playing a fair amount of games recently (i.e. a lot more than Bortuzzo, for example). He will continue to develop and he will get his chance. The season is only half-over, and it's very possible that a trade is made before the deadline, so just chill out for a bit -- it's way too soon to start speculating on playoff line-ups.

5) Whatever you believe, it's just speculation. Let's wait and see what happens. Perhaps Orpik gets traded, perhaps Nisky gets traded instead. The truth is, none of us know what Shero's plans & hopes are for this season's playoff run are, or what his plans are for after this season in the summer and at the draft. I don't believe both Nisky and Orpik will be part of our future long-term, but it IS possible that the Pens wish to re-sign one of them. If I were Shero, I would trade Orpik (because his trade value is higher, and he would command a higher salary if re-signed) vs. Niskanen (who is worth less by trade and will be less expensive to re-sign). For me, Despres takes Orpik's spot full-time next season, and if viewed in that way, this is turning out to be a great developmental season for him.


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Originally Posted by Lamar Latrell View Post
I understand trying to get Eaton some ice time but Despres should be playing every game. And, IMHO, with Letang getting top minutes.

Martin obviously is in the lineup, but I think Orpik should be sat for his performance. He's been our weakest dman this season.
1) Second point first: if you're not happy with Orpik's performance (and I'm in that club) then the best move is to trade that player. And if you're looking to trade Orpik, then scratching him for a rookie would be THE WORST thing you could do in terms of hurting his trade value and asset management. Hold your cards close to the vest until you're ready to pull the trigger on a move if it presents itself. I appreciate (and share) your excitement about Despres, but you have to look at the practical side of the picture, as well.

2) On your first point, and I keep saying this over and over: Despres + Letang is NOT a good pairing. Both Despres and Letang are players who have a bit of risk in their game, and are guys who like to look at joining the rush. Pairing an offensive guy with an offensive guy is a move that would hurt both of them, because it would stifle each of them in that regard. Don't believe me? Well then watch Letang's interview on the Pens' website from today where he talks about how he likes having a steady defensive parter (Eaton this year, Orpik last year) to play with because he knows they're always back. Letang doesn't have that confidence with Despres right now, and Despres could benefit from playing with a steady veteran type (i.e. Martin or Bortuzzo) next season.

I still think a guy like Harrington or Dumoulin with Letang makes the most sense and is what we'll see in the future. And the same concept holds true for when we eventually see guys like Morrow and DP further down the line.

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03-14-2013, 03:48 AM
  #73
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I'll just respond to a few of your points, for the sake of counter-argument
.... well then allow me to retort! ... on a few issues

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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
It's not about performance, it's about balancing the development of the player, not giving too much responsibility too soon, and keeping other guys who are likely to play key roles fresh (i.e. having Engo sit for 10 games would be brutal for his play). At least when Despres is dressing, he sees significant minutes; unlike other teams who have brough prospects along pre-maturely and then they see 5 minutes of ice-time per game.
In my world Despres is not getting quality minutes. He is getting 10-12 per game except for two games (New Jersey and Islanders) where the game was already over, and he got lots of tickets late on, and in those two Devils games where we had Letang and Niskanen missing. Furthermore he is getting his minutes mostly against opponents worst and when our 4th line is on. The exception is the Montreal game, where he was so great that eventually Bylsma started riding him.
It is not so much that he is getting low minutes though, as it is me disliking that those deemed top4 are playing so much. We have defensive depth insuring that the third pairing will be a strong one, and there is no reason none of the top4 guys ever see less than 20 minutes. There is even less reason that Despres has not seen a full game with Letang when a guy like Mark Eaton gets that privilege straight off the bat.

Here's the TOI per game list for NHL D-rookies btw: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce

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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Also, let's not forget that while Despres has been awesome and made far fewer mistakes recently, he was making a lot more mistakes earlier. This is just part of the development and he is improving, so we should be happy, period.
Perhaps a few, but seeing as you predicted him to make lots prior to the season and is changing your opinion, I think part of this is just confirmation bias. Despres was one of our best 6 since game 1.

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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Whatever you believe, it's just speculation. Let's wait and see what happens. Perhaps Orpik gets traded, perhaps Nisky gets traded instead. The truth is, none of us know what Shero's plans & hopes are
Better yet, lets bet on it. I say the very idea that Shero would trade Orpik during this season is bat **** crazy, and I'll give you 2-1 on any bet you'd care to make to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I still think a guy like Harrington or Dumoulin with Letang makes the most sense and is what we'll see in the future. And the same concept holds true for when we eventually see guys like Morrow and DP further down the line.
I seriously think you have gotten yourself married to the misconception that Despres is a free-wheeling offensive D-man. I have no idea how that could have happened to you.
He is a defensive D-man who skates like a dream and joins the rush when the opening presents itself. He projects to being a hopefully/likely more physical Bouwmeester. He is absolutely IDEAL to partner with Letang.

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03-14-2013, 02:39 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
That would be a stupid move. Unless it was a guy that won't be a rental in the top 6, Despres could be a damn good future partner for Letang. Everyone that has a hard on for Harrington, Dumoulin, Morrow, etc need to understand that right now, Despres has NHL experience and is proving he belongs in the NHL, the others aren't NHL'ers yet and until they show they can be, they're potential guys that might or might not work out.

Michalek looked like a great idea too until he came here.

I like to see how someone looks on the team before I fall in love with the idea of him on the damn team which people here do way too often and it makes discussing things hard because everyone has this romanticized idea of a guy being on the team some day and blah blah.

The defense looked much better, fluid even, without Engelland. As much as I like the guy for his hard work and attitude, Despres should not be sitting every few games. Although 8 games isn't a lot, it is when it's 8 out of the 27 the team has played so far.

If there is a defenseman Shero is going to move, it should be Niskanen. His contract is good and he's rebounded back to being a solid top 6 defenseman. I keep Despres over him no matter what.
The upside isnt the same for Niskanen as it is for Despres so it won't bring back the same. If Despres could be the key part of our next Whitney for Kunitz/ Goligoski for Neal trade then so be it.

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