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In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XXXIII ‎

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Old
03-14-2013, 04:09 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Wasn't Brunette a Lacroix signing? I thought he came in the same time as Laperriere and Brisebois. I could be wrong.

And Leopold ended up doing the same thing as Clark--spent a majority of time on the IR after signing. It's a shame because in the short time prior to his sports hernia, he was playing really well. I believe one of Giguere's final moves was flipping Leopold to Calgary for Nycholat and Wilson, so he deserves credit for that at least.
Leopold became Nycholat, Wilson and the pick that became Stefan Elliott.

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03-14-2013, 04:20 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Those are examples of the Avs having too many streaky scorers and not enough consistent scorers.

All i'm saying is that if the Avs wanna tank the season to get a top draft pick, they should tank it all the way and get top 2 pick so they can draft consistency instead of another streaky scorer, or another good character guy that wont get you tons of points but will be a good guy in the locker room.
Again, deep draft. There are plenty of really good hockey players who, as others have pointed out, would normally go much higher if not for the depth of this class.

I think saying anyone outside of MacKinnon/Jones is going to be a "streaky scorer" or a "good locker room guy that won't get you tons of points" is incredibly naive. Getting another top-4 defender and a sniper-type scorer are definitely needs, doesn't mean there are only two players capable of addressing them.

The Avs were the highest-scoring club in the NHL for years and didn't have a Norris-caliber defenseman nor did they have an elite sniper at the top of his game. Great teams and great offenses are as much about coaching, a good gameplan, using personnel the right way, and getting guys who do the little things right--like defense--as it is about snagging superstar players. If it were that simple, the Oilers would be setting all kinds of scoring records.

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03-14-2013, 04:22 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
Leopold became Nycholat, Wilson and the pick that became Stefan Elliott.
Ah yes, forgot about that. Thanks. Definitely Giguere's best trade, and definitely the best trade we ever had with the Flames...though that's not saying much.

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03-14-2013, 04:39 PM
  #754
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Again, deep draft. There are plenty of really good hockey players who, as others have pointed out, would normally go much higher if not for the depth of this class.

I think saying anyone outside of MacKinnon/Jones is going to be a "streaky scorer" or a "good locker room guy that won't get you tons of points" is incredibly naive. Getting another top-4 defender and a sniper-type scorer are definitely needs, doesn't mean there are only two players capable of addressing them.

The Avs were the highest-scoring club in the NHL for years and didn't have a Norris-caliber defenseman nor did they have an elite sniper at the top of his game. Great teams and great offenses are as much about coaching, a good gameplan, using personnel the right way, and getting guys who do the little things right--like defense--as it is about snagging superstar players. If it were that simple, the Oilers would be setting all kinds of scoring records.
Even in a deep draft, i much rather have the Avs finish last for top 2 picks than picking 5 to 10.

What good will finishing 9th or 10th in west do for this team? For me it's playoffs or finish last.

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03-14-2013, 04:46 PM
  #755
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If anything all this talk does is remind us how special and talented our core was back in the golden years.

We love Varly but he's not even close to Roy.

EJ has great potential but we had three guys in Blake, Bourque and Foote who had infinitely more impact on the game.

ROR is a clutch, lovable player (on the ice) but nobody will ever forget how clutch Drury was.

Duchene is a phenom but for that matter, so was a young Alex Tanguay. That is to say, on our old teams, Duchene would be a supporting piece. Now he is expected to carry the load as the "Sakic" of this team.

Landeksog in many ways embodies Forsberg...but Foppa he ain't.

Younger Hejduk scored 50 goals and won a Rocket Richard. We have nobody even remotely in that kind of ballpark in terms of lethal scoring ability.

It's even hard now to imagine all that talent on one team. Not that it always turned out well (Kariya and Selanne year anybody?) - but holy smokes were we spoiled.

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03-14-2013, 05:06 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Even in a deep draft, i much rather have the Avs finish last for top 2 picks than picking 5 to 10.

What good will finishing 9th or 10th in west do for this team? For me it's playoffs or finish last.
Suit yourself. I just want this team to finish strong, hopefully after having made the right personnel changes (Sacco sacking, exile of Zanon/Hunwick). We're not in the same boat as, say, Calgary or Nashville, who honestly need to tank in order to draft a true star player. I think we have enough stars. We just need hockey players. And it's not like the Avs didn't get really good players (Shattenkirk, Stewart) with those slightly-lower 1st rounders in the past.

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03-14-2013, 05:37 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Suit yourself. I just want this team to finish strong, hopefully after having made the right personnel changes (Sacco sacking, exile of Zanon/Hunwick). We're not in the same boat as, say, Calgary or Nashville, who honestly need to tank in order to draft a true star player. I think we have enough stars. We just need hockey players. And it's not like the Avs didn't get really good players (Shattenkirk, Stewart) with those slightly-lower 1st rounders in the past.
I think what it comes down to, is that most Avs fans want more immediate help. Which players in the top 5 tend to step in a bit quicker on average.

Even forwards in the 9-15 range tend take take a bit longer, so while that isn't being said directly. I think it's a factor...

I mean look at a guy like Mantha? Ranked 14th, (Latter is ISS rankings than Craigs list I think.) Hes expected to finish north of 50 goals on his season, and he has size to go with his offensive ability.

But will Mantha be ready next year? Probably not...

(Mantha is one of my favorite options, when it comes to forwards.)

Shinkaruk is a great example of a high upside forward who does not have the size to step in very quickly, hes ranked 12th.

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03-14-2013, 05:39 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I think what it comes down to, is that most Avs fans want more immediate help. Which players in the top 5 tend to step in a bit quicker on average.

Even forwards in the 9-15 range tend take take a bit longer, so while that isn't being said directly. I think it's a factor...

I mean look at a guy like Mantha? Ranked 14th, (Latter is ISS rankings than Craigs list I think.) Hes expected to finish north of 50 goals on his season, and he has size to go with his offensive ability.

But will Mantha be ready next year? Probably not...

(Mantha is one of my favorite options, when it comes to forwards.)
Mantha could be ready if Mantha feels like being ready. Only half joking.

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03-14-2013, 05:47 PM
  #759
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After the top 2-3 picks in each draft, each pick is much less of a sure thing. Obviously every year there are several great players grabbed in the top 10 but for every Logan Couture you have a Thomas Hickey. And busts aside, it's not like high picks are guaranteed to be immediate impact players unless they're a top 2 pick - look at Gudbranson (3rd 2010), Johansen 4th 2010, Nino 5th. Espeically when you have guys like Tarasenko (16th 2010), Eberle (22nd 2008), Giroux (22nd 2006) Karlsson (15th 2008), Kulikov (14th 2009) every draft. Hell look at O'reilly stepping in as a 2nd round pick, or Brandon Saad for the Hawks (43rd overall in 2011).

You've gotta try to win and trust your scouts to find talent wherever you pick.

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03-14-2013, 05:56 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I think what it comes down to, is that most Avs fans want more immediate help. Which players in the top 5 tend to step in a bit quicker on average.

Even forwards in the 9-15 range tend take take a bit longer, so while that isn't being said directly. I think it's a factor...

I mean look at a guy like Mantha? Ranked 14th, (Latter is ISS rankings than Craigs list I think.) Hes expected to finish north of 50 goals on his season, and he has size to go with his offensive ability.

But will Mantha be ready next year? Probably not...

(Mantha is one of my favorite options, when it comes to forwards.)

Shinkaruk is a great example of a high upside forward who does not have the size to step in very quickly, hes ranked 12th.
Fair point, but I'm very, very wary of ever rushing a kid into the big show. On one hand, you have kids like Tavares, Duchene, and Landeskog who proved they were players right off the bat, and then you have the Ryan Johansens and Jonathan Huberdeaus of the league--kids who have definite upside but were simply not ready for the NHL right away. One's a Calder candidate, the other is a cautionary tale.

I don't see this team being a true contender next year, though I hope like hell they're at least a playoff team that vies for the division crown. That said, while a nice consolation prize for yet another bottoming out would be Jones/MacKinnon, I think the team can still build off a middling 9th/10th place finish. One 18-year-old kid won't make this team an automatic contender no matter what his name is.

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03-14-2013, 05:59 PM
  #761
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Look at a draft like 2007. 11/14 top picks have turned into successful NHL players while the success rate after that number drops off a LOT. However, most of them didn't truly break out until this year or last (5 years post draft) - Mcdonagh, Shattenkirk, Turris, JVR, Gagner, Voracek, Eller. Kane, Couture, and Alzner stand out as the exceptions that have been productive much earlier. Sutter while a good player is a 3rd line C is certainly not someone to want to lose to obtain.

Tanking isn't worth it, especially since even if we win a few more games in the second half we probably won't finish about 8-12 and we can still get a good player there.

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03-14-2013, 06:12 PM
  #762
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How good does our pick have to be/what do we have to add to our pick to get a young LHD like Kulikov?

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03-14-2013, 06:22 PM
  #763
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Suit yourself. I just want this team to finish strong, hopefully after having made the right personnel changes (Sacco sacking, exile of Zanon/Hunwick). We're not in the same boat as, say, Calgary or Nashville, who honestly need to tank in order to draft a true star player. I think we have enough stars. We just need hockey players. And it's not like the Avs didn't get really good players (Shattenkirk, Stewart) with those slightly-lower 1st rounders in the past.
The Avs don't just need good players, they need great players. Right now the only consistent scoring winger Avs have is PAP. Can you really win with one scoring winger? Hell no..

Argue all you want on this issue but Avs need Mackinnon, or Seth Jones. I'm just not sure which they need the most. I'd say they probably need Seth Jones more than Mackinnon.

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03-14-2013, 06:54 PM
  #764
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The Avs don't just need good players, they need great players. Right now the only consistent scoring winger Avs have is PAP. Can you really win with one scoring winger? Hell no..

Argue all you want on this issue but Avs need Mackinnon, or Seth Jones. I'm just not sure which they need the most. I'd say they probably need Seth Jones more than Mackinnon.
Well, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment in any event. I think the Avs will figure out how to get more scoring on the wings. More important is that you get great players down the middle, and they certainly have that.

We definitely could use more and better scoring wingers. We also need more guys who can muck it up in front of the net.

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03-14-2013, 07:03 PM
  #765
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Landy, PAP, McGinn, Downie, Sgar, Sober Jones, Plooshy, (Hishon), Pick and future trades is more than good enough if we do end up keeping all three of our centers and can find that EJ partner who lets the whole D slide into place.

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03-14-2013, 07:07 PM
  #766
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Landy, PAP, McGinn, Downie, Sgar, Sober Jones, Plooshy, (Hishon), Pick and future trades is more than good enough if we do end up keeping all three of our centers and can find that EJ partner who lets the whole D slide into place.
Agreed. Even if we don't draft Jones and add one of the top forwards at the draft, we'll be ok offensively with a better coach.

But we need to find a way to add that defender without gutting our offense. Otherwise we'll just ne shifting a strength into being average.

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03-14-2013, 11:59 PM
  #767
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Agreed. Even if we don't draft Jones and add one of the top forwards at the draft, we'll be ok offensively with a better coach.

But we need to find a way to add that defender without gutting our offense. Otherwise we'll just ne shifting a strength into being average.
It's interesting how the conversations have changed since last off-season.

I noticed your now a lot more on board with keeping all three of our centers and trying to find a way to fill that hole in other ways.

One thing I haven't seen discussed almost at all, is trading our 1st round pick this year as part of a package for that defender. If it really looks like we are going to have a top 5 pick, then all of the sudden that 1st rounder has the value needed to bring the player we need in a trade.

I was thinking something like 1st + Sgarbossa or something like that for Yandle, Phoenix sheds salary, the draft is deep in high offensive potential forwards. And they have the depth to weather the blow for a player that may not be ready to step in next year.

Just throwing it out there, as I see it's the only thing valuable enough to bring back the type of player we need in trade. Obviously if we are drafting Jones then no... But that means the #1 over all.

So maybe at the draft in order to make sure? But.. if we could do it now it's a gamble on both sides. We could not end up with a high enough pick to make it happen, or we could end up 1st over all...

(I personally don't see us any higher/worse than FLA, BUF, and teams like CGY, EDM, CLB will be right on our ass.)

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03-15-2013, 12:02 AM
  #768
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No way IN HELL do I want the Avs to even entertain the thought of trading out of the first round of this draft. It's too good and too deep a draft for them to do something stupid like this.

On a side note, Howson at least set Kekelainen up pretty well before he was sacked.

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03-15-2013, 12:06 AM
  #769
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No way IN HELL do I want the Avs to even entertain the thought of trading out of the first round of this draft. It's too good and too deep a draft for them to do something stupid like this.

On a side note, Howson at least set Kekelainen up pretty well before he was sacked.
Who would you rather have? Yandle or Monahan/Nurse/Shinkaruk/Mantha ? Basically #5-10th over all picks... There is way way more offense in this draft than high end defensive help.

(It's kind of flipped from last year in the top half of the first round...)

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03-15-2013, 12:13 AM
  #770
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Who would you rather have? Yandle or Monahan/Nurse/Shinkaruk/Mantha ? Basically #5-10th over all picks... There is way way more offense in this draft than high end defensive help.

(It's kind of flipped from last year in the top half of the first round...)
That is pretty limited view considering the players that could potentially drop, plus we have a chance to win the 1st overall as well.

I've been able to watch Yandle a few times this season and he isn't worth our 1st draft pick. I think he is getting seriously overrated on this board and I honestly don't see why we would have to give up another piece if Stastny is the main player going to Phoenix.

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03-15-2013, 12:14 AM
  #771
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Who would you rather have? Yandle or Monahan/Nurse/Shinkaruk/Mantha ? Basically #5-10th over all picks... There is way way more offense in this draft than high end defensive help.
Okay, well, offensive help is a definite need on this team. At least on the wings. And maybe at center too if things fall apart with O'Reilly again. And the Avs have to be wary of their salary structure going forward. Adding a Keith Yandle--good as he is--will not help that endeavor.

Only way I'd want to part with our first rounder is if I knew we were getting a surefire Norris-caliber defender in return, which wouldn't happen, I know.

So no, the Avs have already traded out of the first round of too many drafts recently. They need to stay the course here. A defense built around EJ/Hejda/Barrie/Elliott/Siemens and whatever FA signing or trade we make in the next couple seasons could be good without giving up that valuable first rounder.

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03-15-2013, 12:22 AM
  #772
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Okay, well, offensive help is a definite need on this team. At least on the wings. And maybe at center too if things fall apart with O'Reilly again. And the Avs have to be wary of their salary structure going forward. Adding a Keith Yandle--good as he is--will not help that endeavor.

Only way I'd want to part with our first rounder is if I knew we were getting a surefire Norris-caliber defender in return, which wouldn't happen, I know.

So no, the Avs have already traded out of the first round of too many drafts recently. They need to stay the course here. A defense built around EJ/Hejda/Barrie/Elliott/Siemens and whatever FA signing or trade we make in the next couple seasons could be good without giving up that valuable first rounder.
Fair enough, as long as we can add two top 4 defenders in free-agency IMO. We might be fine...

But we sure as hell are not finding a top pairing defender in free-agency. We have a better chance at finding help on the wings in free-agency though, but that's IMO.

I'm also in the camp that wants to keep all three centers moving forward though.

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03-15-2013, 12:37 AM
  #773
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Draft. Drouin.

Nuff Said

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03-15-2013, 01:06 AM
  #774
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Fair enough, as long as we can add two top 4 defenders in free-agency IMO. We might be fine...

But we sure as hell are not finding a top pairing defender in free-agency. We have a better chance at finding help on the wings in free-agency though, but that's IMO.

I'm also in the camp that wants to keep all three centers moving forward though.
Two!? Lordy, I think we have two already (EJ, Hejda), with one currently lurking in the depths of Lake Erie (Barrie).

Yes, I'm still not a fan of Hejda, but he's perfectly fine as a middle-pairing guy.

No idea what they'll do on the center situation. I think ultimately they need to trade Stastny...it just depends on when the right time for that might be. I predict it'll be this offseason, and he'll end up in Florida.

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03-15-2013, 04:23 AM
  #775
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That is pretty limited view considering the players that could potentially drop, plus we have a chance to win the 1st overall as well.

I've been able to watch Yandle a few times this season and he isn't worth our 1st draft pick. I think he is getting seriously overrated on this board and I honestly don't see why we would have to give up another piece if Stastny is the main player going to Phoenix.


We need to keep our first and signed Streit this summer.

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