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Old
03-14-2013, 07:35 PM
  #1
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Why is our bottom six production so bad?

Whenever we have a player that can perform well there and produce we get rid of them. Seemingly always thinking we'll get better and instead getting worse players. A rotating series of worse players.

A look at 4 players that we got rid of and what they've done since leaving here. Note that all these players wanted to stay here and either played bottomsix here or were likely to make that adjustment. But the Oilers said, no, sorry, next.

Heres the guys and their goal totals since leaving here.

Curtis Glencross 87goals in last 4 years and change since being here.(It was important to save 100K, we have to pay dearly for Eagers, Brules, Barkers, Khabi etc,)

Raffi Torres 65 goals in last 4 years and change since being here. This I should add on bit minutes, typically something around 12mins night. Raffi for instance has 9EV pts this year on 10EV minutes/night in 18GP. WE currently have two players in the lineup with more EV pts.(It was important to trade him for a bust, Gilbert Brule, who I stated was a bust at the time. Brule scored 21 goals for us during his tenure here and then vanished after a brief stint in Phoenix. Heres the latest report:, cut from a swiss league team:

http://www.news1130.com/2012/10/23/s...gilbert-brule/

Kyle Brodziak 50 goals in last 3 years and change since being here. WE got two late round picks for him. We also gave up a late round pick. So you could say we traded Brodziak for a late round pick and a pack of timbits. Minny loves us though so its all good.

Andrew Cogliano 22goals in 1.5 yrs since being here. Yeah we had a numbers game on centers. Could we have continued to play Cogs elsewhere? Seems like a reasonable player and we sure got enough of a good look at him. But gave up anyway. Cogs is probably happy though getting to play on a good team so its all good.


These are some of the latest in a long history this org has of giving up on players that have found use elsewhere. Thats OK I guess, a lot of clubs around the league appreciate our efforts in developing players for them. For instance guys like Stoll, Lupul, Cleary, Chimera, also come to mind.

Heres the type of players we've recruited in bottom six subsequent to deeming the above bolded players expendable:

Macintyr, Jacques, Stortini, Potulny, MAP, POS, Reddox, Fraser, Eager, Belanger, Petrell, Jones. Not a complete list but you get the idea. Of these only Jones and Belanger have been particularly useful.

But could you imagine us still having Stoll, Torres, Glencross, Brodziak, Cogs, Cleary, Chimera in our bottom six and these being players that may have been willing to perform those roles to stay here?

How odd it is that the players we need are the ones that got away..

I can't explain a club that spends years developing young players and suffering all the growing pains and then just giving them away.

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03-14-2013, 07:43 PM
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We might of gotten rid of those players to get the kids we have today..... Look I agree, we gave those guys away but it's because we were going for more top 6 forwards at the time.

All I know is that it's easier to find bottom 6 forwards than it is top 6 forwards so this will be easier to fill the line up out

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03-14-2013, 07:53 PM
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Agreed. Our bottom 6 needs a huge make over. Only players I want to keep are Brown, Jones (depending on his asking price) and for the time being, Horcoff. Smyth and Belanger need to be replaced as soon as possible and I've been one of his few supporters since he came here. All he does is win faceoffs and is good on the PK. There a bunch of players that can replace him.

It's funny, looking at the UFA's this year, if the Oilers could bring in a couple of guys, our bottom 6 would be a lot better. Some of the UFA's I would target for our bottom 6...

Pascal Dupuis
Drew Miller
Matt Cullen
Chris Higgins
Michael Handzus (4th line center)
Colby Armstrong (4th line winger)

Those are just a few. There are a lot more but we can easily improve our bottom 6 this year if we are active this offseason during free agency.

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03-14-2013, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
But could you imagine us still having Stoll, Torres, Glencross, Brodziak, Cogs, Cleary, Chimera in our bottom six and these being players that may have been willing to perform those roles to stay here?
Torres and Stoll had issues here. Stoll was also traded for a d-man, which we desperatly needed. You gotta give to get. He was also having concussion issues and playing very poorly when we got rid of him. I seem to remember a lot of fans wanted him gone (and they got their wish).

Torres is a head-case. A couple years ago he sat all summer until the Nucks lowballed him before the season started. So I guess the rest of the NHL GMs should be scolded as well.

Cogs was a small redundant forward. We had zero use for him. It was either him or Gagner.

Cleary, well, I'm pretty sure his development curve would be a bit different if he spent his career on the Oilers instead of the Wings.

Brodziak and Chimera I havent watched that much, so I cant really comment. Both seemed to have improved as soon as they left the Oilers. Maybe that helped their development curve. If they stuck around, they could have been in the list of busts you mentioned. Who knows. Sometimes a trade helps spur a player on.

Glencross, yeah, well, we had Moreau, our captain and supreme leader to help us to the promised land (of numerous first overalls).

So Glencross, yeah. I'd have liked to keep Reasoner as well. Brodziak I'd need to be reminded why he wasnt re-signed. Chimera I cant really comment on and the rest had reasons to move on.

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03-14-2013, 08:06 PM
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Smyth, Belanger, and Petrell are fixtures in our current bottom 6.

Ideally we have a top 6 of Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yakupov, Gagner+big top 6 forward going into next season. If we can't acquire that big top 6 forward, we'll give Paajarvi a shot there, as he seems to have become a completely different player this season. Horcoff, as much as I hate him, is still a servicable 3rd line center, and we'll have more than enough cap space to eat his contract next season with Whitney and Khabibulin coming off the books. I would give Anton Lander a shot on the 4th line, and let him play his way up, the same goes for Teemu Hartikainen. Mike Brown is basically what we expected Ben Eager to be. Ryan Jones provided he doesn't ask for too much money (think 4 years 3 million dollars ish), should be resigned, so there's 5 accounted for. Some guys I think we could get for cheap to fill out the last spot in free agency are: Brenden Morrow, Raffi Torres, Pascal Dupuis, Chris Higgins, and Dustin Penner (he was pretty good with us last time, a 1 year deal wont hurt).

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03-14-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
So Glencross, yeah. I'd have liked to keep Reasoner as well. Brodziak I'd need to be reminded why he wasnt re-signed. Chimera I cant really comment on and the rest had reasons to move on.
IIRC Brodziak lost out to MAP, as the Oilers needed to make a call with one of them, and they chose Brodziak

I think a lot of our problems stem from the fact that the Oilers management group is absolutely in LOVE with young players and 1st rounder draft picks. It seems that youth always trumps actual NHLers. It's baffling, but I don't know of any other team that gives up actual NHLers for magic beans as much as the Oilers have over the years. Obviously before the last CBA in 2005, we were losing these players because of financial concerns, but the youth-train hasn't stopped since then either.

At some point, this team needs to start acquiring NHL players, instead of prospects, picks and AHL players.

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03-14-2013, 08:22 PM
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To be fair, Belanger should have replaced Brodziak quite easily. He was more proven but he comes here and craps the bed. I swear our pro scouts need to be better and look into things more before they make a trade.

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03-14-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Torres and Stoll had issues here. Stoll was also traded for a d-man, which we desperatly needed. You gotta give to get. He was also having concussion issues and playing very poorly when we got rid of him. I seem to remember a lot of fans wanted him gone (and they got their wish).

Torres is a head-case. A couple years ago he sat all summer until the Nucks lowballed him before the season started. So I guess the rest of the NHL GMs should be scolded as well.

Cogs was a small redundant forward. We had zero use for him. It was either him or Gagner.

Cleary, well, I'm pretty sure his development curve would be a bit different if he spent his career on the Oilers instead of the Wings.

Brodziak and Chimera I havent watched that much, so I cant really comment. Both seemed to have improved as soon as they left the Oilers. Maybe that helped their development curve. If they stuck around, they could have been in the list of busts you mentioned. Who knows. Sometimes a trade helps spur a player on.

Glencross, yeah, well, we had Moreau, our captain and supreme leader to help us to the promised land (of numerous first overalls).

So Glencross, yeah. I'd have liked to keep Reasoner as well. Brodziak I'd need to be reminded why he wasnt re-signed. Chimera I cant really comment on and the rest had reasons to move on.
Brodziak and Reasoner were just deemed expendable. Around the time that MacT was having "philosophical differences" with Klowe. All I'll say is MacT had plenty of use for either player and would certainly like players like this.

Not sure what you mean about Stoll, Torres had issues here or Torres is a headcase. I tend to look at the hockey player. What they bring on the ice. Both are exactly what we need in this lineup, like precisely. AS I mentioned what we did suffer through the growing years with these players then send them down the river to teams happy to have them. Tippet, one of the better coaches in the game, is quite pleased with Raffi Torres. When I watch games, and I watch players like this consistently, is I see players that have learned their roles and perform them. I no longer see the "inconsistent efforts" that people saw in a player like Torres. But even if he is he's a game breaker. He's skilled enough he has nights where he gets the big goals and can be an important player. Enigma, sure, thats not always bad. Could we use those 15goals/yr and over 100hits/year on limited minutes? Damn straight.

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03-14-2013, 08:31 PM
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Joey Moss
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Because the bottom 6 is bad. I would get rid of everyone in the bottom 6 other than Petrell, Brown and maybe Jones.

Possible replacements; Bickell, Cooke, Larose, Gordon, Crombeen, Stalberg (would love Paajarvi and Stalberg on a line together), Thompson, Hendricks, Smithson, Chipchura, Volpatti.. more through trade route as well.

This is something I'd love to see;

Paajarvi - Barkov - Stalberg
Bickell - Hendricks - Brown
EX - Petrell + Volpatti

Won't happen, but just an example.

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03-14-2013, 08:38 PM
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Glencross and possibly Brodziak are the only ones I regret on that list. Teams move on. The Oilers are no exception.

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03-14-2013, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
IIRC Brodziak lost out to MAP, as the Oilers needed to make a call with one of them, and they chose Brodziak
I have to say, Brodziak and the Glencross one are forehead slappers. The rest, I think, not so much.

Cogs had dreams of top 6 duty. Stoll and Torres only get looked back on with rose-colored glasses, everybody was frothing at the mouth to have them gone (shows what the HF collective knows - I always remember that whenever I see the latest thread of posters turning on their next victim). Cleary would have never panned out if he stayed, and he's terrible this year anyway so it's not like he'd be helping us right now even if he had. Reasoner similarly has been called one of the Isles' worst players this year so he's another case of grass-is-greener. I dunno, I could go on.

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03-14-2013, 08:52 PM
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I miss our fourth line for that stretch we had Glencross. What was it, Brodziak and...stortini? Jones? I can't remember.

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03-14-2013, 08:57 PM
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I think a few of the bottom 6 problems are looking like they'll sort themselves out. I'm not saying they'll all be solved, but a few of them looking forward to the rest of this season and perhaps the rest in the offseason.

Injuries happen, but EDM lost arguably their best bottom 6 player in Horcoff. I think Smyth is a bit unfairly maligned to be lumped in with Eager and Petrell - he's a better player than that and is IMO just fine in a 4th line role

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I don't see the same problem for next year with a bottom six of:

Paajarvi-Horcoff-???
Smyth-???-Hartikainen

Belanger and Brown presumably the 13th and 14th F's.

Where the ??? are filled via UFA.

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03-14-2013, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
Because the bottom 6 is bad. I would get rid of everyone in the bottom 6 other than Petrell, Brown and maybe Jones.

Possible replacements; Bickell, Cooke, Larose, Gordon, Crombeen, Stalberg (would love Paajarvi and Stalberg on a line together), Thompson, Hendricks, Smithson, Chipchura, Volpatti.. more through trade route as well.

This is something I'd love to see;

Paajarvi - Barkov - Stalberg
Bickell - Hendricks - Brown
EX - Petrell + Volpatti

Won't happen, but just an example.
I'm just hoping for Bickell. 6'4, 230 and likes to throw his weight around? Sign me up. With Paajarvi, Jones, Bickell, and Brown, we'd have a pretty damn good group of bottom 6 wingers

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03-14-2013, 09:02 PM
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I'm no fan of our Bottom 6, but I have another PoV.

What if a LOT of the fault comes from the lack of Defense?

I mean can you imagine relying on outlet passes from Peckham/Fistric/N.Schultz? Half our D plays the puck like it's a hand grenade.

We saw the difference a guy like Pronger made.

Not absolving the forwards of anything, but a stronger D would definitely make them look better. Heck, Roloson would even outlet pass on occasion, Cujo had that down to a science.

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03-14-2013, 09:04 PM
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Joey Moss
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I'm just hoping for Bickell. 6'4, 230 and likes to throw his weight around? Sign me up. With Paajarvi, Jones, Bickell, and Brown, we'd have a pretty damn good group of bottom 6 wingers
I agree on Bickell. He's the one I want the most but I'm sure Chicago will sign him and if they don't he's going to be offered over 2M on the market which is expensive for a 4th liner but still. As for Jones, he's wearing on me. He hasn't even scored this year and he's got 1 assist. I'm assuming the Oilers will keep him which I don't mind at all. I just think for my 3rd line I want a little more consistency and for my 4th line I want a biggger physical guy.

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03-14-2013, 09:10 PM
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love threads that are all revisionist history

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03-14-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
I'm no fan of our Bottom 6, but I have another PoV.

What if a LOT of the fault comes from the lack of Defense?

I mean can you imagine relying on outlet passes from Peckham/Fistric/N.Schultz? Half our D plays the puck like it's a hand grenade.

We saw the difference a guy like Pronger made.

Not absolving the forwards of anything, but a stronger D would definitely make them look better. Heck, Roloson would even outlet pass on occasion, Cujo had that down to a science.
Definitely a decent argument could be made. If a guy like Petrell has to take it up the ice by himself, it's going to be a lot harder to retain possession than if you've got a guy that can hit him full stride, so he can dump it in and go after it

Quote:
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I agree on Bickell. He's the one I want the most but I'm sure Chicago will sign him and if they don't he's going to be offered over 2M on the market which is expensive for a 4th liner but still. As for Jones, he's wearing on me. He hasn't even scored this year and he's got 1 assist. I'm assuming the Oilers will keep him which I don't mind at all. I just think for my 3rd line I want a little more consistency and for my 4th line I want a biggger physical guy.
I'd be ok with giving him that money. Better Bickell at 2, than Prust at 2.5. Bickell can play 3rd line and not look too out of place (hell, he's on like a 40 point pace again this year). This is probably going to be his biggest contract of his career so I get the feeling he's going to walk and see what he can get.

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03-14-2013, 09:22 PM
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Glencross isn't a "bottom 6" player, and hasn't been one for years. He's a 1st/2nd liner in Calgary who gets a ton of powerplay minutes. His loss hurt because he was an emerging top 6 player, something the Oilers couldn't assess and identify under their own noses while on one of their fruitless UFA whale hunts.

Brodziak played the most minutes of any center last year in Minnesota, easily the 2nd line center, and frequently the first line center since Koivu missed a bunch of time to injuries. They've cut his ice time by nearly 3 minutes per game this year, which a contributing factor to his steep decline in production.

Holding up either player as "bottom sixers" is misleading when they haven't played those roles since they left Edmonton, and wouldn't have been kept in those roles if they had stayed.

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03-14-2013, 09:24 PM
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I have to say, Brodziak and the Glencross one are forehead slappers. The rest, I think, not so much.

Cogs had dreams of top 6 duty. Stoll and Torres only get looked back on with rose-colored glasses, everybody was frothing at the mouth to have them gone (shows what the HF collective knows - I always remember that whenever I see the latest thread of posters turning on their next victim). Cleary would have never panned out if he stayed, and he's terrible this year anyway so it's not like he'd be helping us right now even if he had. Reasoner similarly has been called one of the Isles' worst players this year so he's another case of grass-is-greener. I dunno, I could go on.
Everybody on this board knows how much I liked Torres and Stoll, so not sure what you're saying here. Maybe the org should have more patience with players with good potential.

Glencross ftr, I had wrong, way wrong, but then I'm not paid to assemble a hockey club. But Brodz was definitely one of my faves. I saw a solid player there and commented on him a lot.

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03-14-2013, 09:27 PM
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love threads that are all revisionist history
Says somebody posting here for just over a year.

Check back. Stoll, Torres, Brodz were always among my favorite players.

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03-14-2013, 09:30 PM
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It lacks 5 more Mike Brown's

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03-14-2013, 09:31 PM
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To be fair, Belanger should have replaced Brodziak quite easily. He was more proven but he comes here and craps the bed. I swear our pro scouts need to be better and look into things more before they make a trade.
Belanger was a no brainer, it's almost unexplainable how bad his offense has fallen off after being so consistent. Before the Oilers he put up

35 pts
33 pts
37 pts
35 pts
36 pts
37 pts
35 pts

I don't blame the pro scouts for that... hard to predict his offense would disappear suddenly.

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03-14-2013, 09:39 PM
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It lacks 5 more Mike Brown's
Theres a recipe. We'd score 5 bottomsix goals/year combined.

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03-14-2013, 09:45 PM
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Joey Moss
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When we signed Belanger everyone here was ecstatic about it. I don't blame Tambellini one bit for that signing. I do, however blame him for Eager and Smyth. Ugh. Everytime I remember Smyth has another year on his deal I cringe. Just a brutal player these days. Tambellini let Smyth's history here dictate the term on that contract. Shows what kind of GM he is. It didn't take a genius to realize Smytty's days were behind him half way through last season. Tambo's too soft to say no to people like that and Smyth walked all over him.

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