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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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Old
03-14-2013, 01:55 PM
  #151
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Anybody think Subban could end up being a Norris finalist? I haven't watched him closely enough to say, but he has really good stats which is a start.

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03-14-2013, 01:56 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Take a look at what having an additional $4 million can get this team in the offseason.

Your gripe would be legit if Subban indicated he is leaving Montreal.
I'm not sure I follow you. From my proposal to that of what Subban is making, it is 3 million (the difference between 5.75 and 2.875) and I am talking about a long serving discount, for the next 13 years... Which would help us keep players for the next 13 years, not just this one year. Not to mention finding money in Kaberle, buying out Gionta (only for dollars, not because he sucks).

Having great players at the lowest possible cap is a way to have success in the long run. Signing Subban to a 7+ M contract going forward will only hurt later on. Sure we sign Corey Perry this year at 9 million for the 7 years, but what happens when other players contracts are up? You want to think short term, go ahead. In the business world, you must think ahead.

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03-14-2013, 01:57 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Sens fans are very insecure about other good PMD.

Ottawa residents are insecure by nature, but Sens fans even more-so.

Let them have it. Kissing their Karlsson posters before bed is the best part of their day.
Not all of us lol i'm quite secure in PK Subban and myself

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03-14-2013, 03:18 PM
  #154
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I see Subban being a guy who will take a bit of a discount if he knows the team is close to winning, and might need that one or two more pieces to make it happen. I'm not talking like a 2 million dollar discount, but like if he's going to command 7 million a year on the open market I see taking 6.5 instead.

People like to villify this guy.. I really don't know why. He's always been a stand up guy, despite "maturity issues" everyone liked to go on about before he signed his deal this year. He's been a Habs fan all of his life, and he loves playing here. He's said both publicly.. I can see it happening.

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03-14-2013, 04:36 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I'm not sure I follow you. From my proposal to that of what Subban is making, it is 3 million (the difference between 5.75 and 2.875) and I am talking about a long serving discount, for the next 13 years... Which would help us keep players for the next 13 years, not just this one year. Not to mention finding money in Kaberle, buying out Gionta (only for dollars, not because he sucks).

Having great players at the lowest possible cap is a way to have success in the long run. Signing Subban to a 7+ M contract going forward will only hurt later on. Sure we sign Corey Perry this year at 9 million for the 7 years, but what happens when other players contracts are up? You want to think short term, go ahead. In the business world, you must think ahead.
Bergevin is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World.

Do you think that Bergevin just woke up one day and pulled a number out of his ass and ran with it? Remember, his first name is not Pierre and he understands hockey, including player management and what it takes to build a competitive team.

In the Cap World of the NHL, One Million dollars per year one way or the other over time is insignificant. One million dollars is what you would pay a press box sitter.

In the Cap World of the NHL, the $3 to $4 million cost savings for the next two years (not giving Subban the moon immediately) equals adding a very good DMan to this roster or a very good forward. Not Corey Perry, but a damned good forward.

I think Bergevin has a plan on how to pay Subban his salary in two years while making the moves on the team to make it possible. He learned well in Chicago.

Look how easily he made Cole's contract disappear. Same for Gomez. And soon to be same for Kaberle.

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03-14-2013, 04:38 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Not all of us lol i'm quite secure in PK Subban and myself
Well not all of us, but living in the city I'm sure you've met your fair share.

I'd give it a conservative estimate of...99 % of the population.

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03-14-2013, 04:52 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
The way I see it is that yes all teams have highly paid players, but my best examples are Crosby and Malkin. If any players deserve leagues max, it would be Crosby right? Max a player could make I believe is 20% so at 64.3 mil cap, that is 12.86 million. Knowing that Crosby took a discount (Ovechkin is the highest at 9.5), it helps his team stay competitive. Max took a good discount, look at the players making more than him, a lot of them aren't producing like Max is.

Saying that teams can be competitive with players making 6+ M is obvious, but saving cap space a million here, 1.5 there, can get you a player that would make 4.5 instead of 1 a year. Sometimes taking the risk can backfire (a la Gomez) but you can't be afraid to take the risk.
Key is in developping young players, if everytime a player leaves or retire you have to acquire another via trade or UFA you'll be in trouble, but if you have young players (even if only one) ready to step in and replace those who left you should be O.K.

for example, when Gionta leaves if there's a young player making 1 mil ready to take his spot (or at least be a regular in the NHL) then we're good with the Cap, if we have to spend another 4 or 5 Mil to replace him then it's going to be hard to ice a good team.

Pens are the exception as they arent really good at drafting, but since they have two generationnal talent on their team they'll look decent to good for a long while.

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03-14-2013, 05:49 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Bergevin is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World.

Do you think that Bergevin just woke up one day and pulled a number out of his ass and ran with it? Remember, his first name is not Pierre and he understands hockey, including player management and what it takes to build a competitive team.

In the Cap World of the NHL, One Million dollars per year one way or the other over time is insignificant. One million dollars is what you would pay a press box sitter.

In the Cap World of the NHL, the $3 to $4 million cost savings for the next two years (not giving Subban the moon immediately) equals adding a very good DMan to this roster or a very good forward. Not Corey Perry, but a damned good forward.

I think Bergevin has a plan on how to pay Subban his salary in two years while making the moves on the team to make it possible. He learned well in Chicago.

Look how easily he made Cole's contract disappear. Same for Gomez. And soon to be same for Kaberle.
You're not making much sense..
Bergevin bought himself one season. One only. The only way this makes sense is if we would be going for broke next year. So you sign him at a cheap short deal, leave big space to get a big name in, and go for the cup.

In any event, in two years, with our cap being much lower, with guys like MaxPad, DD, Emelin, Diaz, Eller all also getting increases, you're not setting yourself up to be in a great situation, and PK is your biggest case.

Taken care of PK right away for multiple years would have been much simpler. Not only that, but out of all the players you have on the team that needs to be re-signed, he's a sure bet to keep.

PK was allegedly asking for about 1.5M more than what he's getting except over 6-8years. You just said the difference in cap is insignificant when it's that low. Well, then we absolutely needed to sign him for longer because if he keeps it up (and there's no reason to believe he won't), that 1.5M will easily transform itself into a 3M increase, and possibly even more.

I think that's where you seem to go wrong. You believe PK was asking 6-7M. I seriously doubt this is true, and the fact he actually signed such a cheap deal makes it even less believable. Makes a lot more sense that he was asking for about 4.5M.

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03-14-2013, 06:22 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Bergevin is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World.
You do realize that Bergevin himself said he wasn't good with the numbers part of the job right... we're talking about a former hockey player with zero education here.

Now, the season has turned out very well. I think he deserves a lot of credit for a lot of the things he did but let's not act like he's this big time hot shot with the cap and everything.

Quote:
Do you think that Bergevin just woke up one day and pulled a number out of his ass and ran with it? Remember, his first name is not Pierre and he understands hockey, including player management and what it takes to build a competitive team.
I don't know where he got his number but is Subban worse than MDZ? You're insane if you think so yet that's what Subban's cap hit is. So clearly, whatever way Bergevin used to come up with that number was really quite silly.

Quote:
In the Cap World of the NHL, One Million dollars per year one way or the other over time is insignificant. One million dollars is what you would pay a press box sitter.
Yeah, if 1M is insignificant why lowball Subban into a holdout? Just give him whatever, right ? Yeah... your argument falls to pieces because there's zero logic in your thought process.

Quote:
In the Cap World of the NHL, the $3 to $4 million cost savings for the next two years (not giving Subban the moon immediately) equals adding a very good DMan to this roster or a very good forward. Not Corey Perry, but a damned good forward.
3 or 4M ... what .. are you talking about ? He has a 2.75M cap hit right now. You think he would have costed 5.75M-6.75M cap hit over a long term deal this summer ? I'm sorry but you're clueless. It's hard to take you seriously when you say stuff like that.

Quote:
I think Bergevin has a plan on how to pay Subban his salary in two years while making the moves on the team to make it possible. He learned well in Chicago.
His plan is stupid and short sighted.

He gained nothing from this except a lower cap hit next year. That's it. In the process, he ran the risk of having a diminished Subban for this season (players who miss training camp + beginning of season tend to suck the whole year), while also running the risk of alienating the player all for the privilege of paying more later. If you think it was worth it, I don't know what to tell you. You obviously can't admit you were wrong.

Quote:
Look how easily he made Cole's contract disappear. Same for Gomez. And soon to be same for Kaberle.
lol, yeah he bought Gomez out with Molson's money with a special buyout available twice at the beginning of a new CBA. Quite the magician. Thank God we have a GM who : "is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World." No one else could have done it !

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03-14-2013, 09:09 PM
  #160
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Such silly talk here. PK is from a good family. A family of hard workers. There is no way he'd just coast on a big contract. He's the type of guy that would be motivated to live up to his contract. How are fans of this team so out of touch with our players?

A mega deal for PK was NOT a risk. Bridge deal was silly and hearing people still defending it is hillarious.

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03-14-2013, 09:27 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You do realize that Bergevin himself said he wasn't good with the numbers part of the job right... we're talking about a former hockey player with zero education here.

Now, the season has turned out very well. I think he deserves a lot of credit for a lot of the things he did but let's not act like he's this big time hot shot with the cap and everything.



I don't know where he got his number but is Subban worse than MDZ? You're insane if you think so yet that's what Subban's cap hit is. So clearly, whatever way Bergevin used to come up with that number was really quite silly.



Yeah, if 1M is insignificant why lowball Subban into a holdout? Just give him whatever, right ? Yeah... your argument falls to pieces because there's zero logic in your thought process.



3 or 4M ... what .. are you talking about ? He has a 2.75M cap hit right now. You think he would have costed 5.75M-6.75M cap hit over a long term deal this summer ? I'm sorry but you're clueless. It's hard to take you seriously when you say stuff like that.



His plan is stupid and short sighted.

He gained nothing from this except a lower cap hit next year. That's it. In the process, he ran the risk of having a diminished Subban for this season (players who miss training camp + beginning of season tend to suck the whole year), while also running the risk of alienating the player all for the privilege of paying more later. If you think it was worth it, I don't know what to tell you. You obviously can't admit you were wrong.



lol, yeah he bought Gomez out with Molson's money with a special buyout available twice at the beginning of a new CBA. Quite the magician. Thank God we have a GM who : "is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World." No one else could have done it !
I still trust Bergevin over you.

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03-14-2013, 10:05 PM
  #162
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Although PK is playing better, and I agree to that, I'm not ready to start heaping praise on Therrien for it. The guy had him on the THIRD PAIRING until Diaz got hurt.. and to be honest, if he hadn't got hurt, he still might be there.

PK has been given a lot more responsibility since Diaz went down (and rightly so... should have had it when Diaz was playing BUT..) and it's paying off, like I expected it too. In my opinion, a better coaching move would have had him playing with Gorges right away.

I like Therrien, I like his system, and you can't argue with the results he's gotten.. But the guy makes some real questionable decisions sometimes.

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03-14-2013, 10:19 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I still trust Bergevin over you.
I trust Bergevin over any poster here. Still doesn't mean he handled the PK situation well. The fact PK is playing so well, and that he'll likely command an extra 2M over what he was most likely demanding is proof enough of it.

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03-14-2013, 10:21 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I trust Bergevin over any poster here. Still doesn't mean he handled the PK situation well. The fact PK is playing so well, and that he'll likely command an extra 2M over what he was most likely demanding is proof enough of it.
so, the proof is what, that rumors were he asked for X and it may cost us X+ ?

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03-14-2013, 10:22 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Although PK is playing better, and I agree to that, I'm not ready to start heaping praise on Therrien for it. The guy had him on the THIRD PAIRING until Diaz got hurt.. and to be honest, if he hadn't got hurt, he still might be there.

PK has been given a lot more responsibility since Diaz went down (and rightly so... should have had it when Diaz was playing BUT..) and it's paying off, like I expected it too. In my opinion, a better coaching move would have had him playing with Gorges right away.

I like Therrien, I like his system, and you can't argue with the results he's gotten.. But the guy makes some real questionable decisions sometimes.
Though I love the job that Therrien has done this season - who can deny it really?? - I get your point. I was confused as to why PK was on the 3rd pairing and 2nd PP unit for so long, even after he shook off the cobwebs and was playing quality hockey. Logically, I would've thought 2nd pairing duties with, let's say Gorges while Diaz pairs with Markov would've made sense for everyone, no?

Whatevs... The team's in 1st, PK is playing like Suberman (copyright pending) and maybe - just maybe it's because MT challenges his players to dig deeper. Whatever he's doing, it's working!

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03-14-2013, 10:30 PM
  #166
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so, the proof is what, that rumors were he asked for X and it may cost us X+ ?
It may cost us X+?
Because you think PK will ask the same amount of cash in 2014 that he was asking for before this season?? Of course he will ask x+.

But if you don't want to talk contract rumors, PK's play is making the insistence on a bridge deal (to the point where you lock him out) look moronic. And it's not like it's a surprise that PK is excelling. Just go back in time and look at how many people predicted it.

Just admit you were wrong already, and let it go.

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03-14-2013, 10:34 PM
  #167
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Though I love the job that Therrien has done this season - who can deny it really?? - I get your point. I was confused as to why PK was on the 3rd pairing and 2nd PP unit for so long, even after he shook off the cobwebs and was playing quality hockey. Logically, I would've thought 2nd pairing duties with, let's say Gorges while Diaz pairs with Markov would've made sense for everyone, no?

Whatevs... The team's in 1st, PK is playing like Suberman (copyright pending) and maybe - just maybe it's because MT challenges his players to dig deeper. Whatever he's doing, it's working!
An effective coach handles indidvidual players differently on his team.

Look at what adversity did for Eller. He is a completely different and more confident player than he was last year.

Look at the improvements of Subban after being on the 3rd pairing.

Sometimes a leader understands that you need to have players prove their worth which in turn increases their worth. Keep the players hungry and not complacent.

Therrien 2.0 is a dramatic improvement over the 1.0 version.

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03-14-2013, 10:40 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Although PK is playing better, and I agree to that, I'm not ready to start heaping praise on Therrien for it. The guy had him on the THIRD PAIRING until Diaz got hurt.. and to be honest, if he hadn't got hurt, he still might be there.

PK has been given a lot more responsibility since Diaz went down (and rightly so... should have had it when Diaz was playing BUT..) and it's paying off, like I expected it too. In my opinion, a better coaching move would have had him playing with Gorges right away.

I like Therrien, I like his system, and you can't argue with the results he's gotten.. But the guy makes some real questionable decisions sometimes.
I didn't understand his reasoning either. And it's too bad that he didn't play Subban more earlier on because it just might cost him the Norris.

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03-14-2013, 10:41 PM
  #169
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Though I love the job that Therrien has done this season - who can deny it really?? - I get your point. I was confused as to why PK was on the 3rd pairing and 2nd PP unit for so long, even after he shook off the cobwebs and was playing quality hockey. Logically, I would've thought 2nd pairing duties with, let's say Gorges while Diaz pairs with Markov would've made sense for everyone, no?

Whatevs... The team's in 1st, PK is playing like Suberman (copyright pending) and maybe - just maybe it's because MT challenges his players to dig deeper. Whatever he's doing, it's working!
Exactly.. Or Diaz playing with Bouillon even. But like you said, it would be a lot worst if the team was crapping the bed. As much as it sucks to see, Diaz's injury might have been what was needed for PK and maybe the team. I'm not saying I like seeing him out of the line up, but I think he'll pair up with Beef when he comes back and we'll have 3 solid D lines.

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03-14-2013, 10:43 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
An effective coach handles indidvidual players differently on his team.

Look at what adversity did for Eller. He is a completely different and more confident player than he was last year.

Look at the improvements of Subban after being on the 3rd pairing.

Sometimes a leader understands that you need to have players prove their worth which in turn increases their worth. Keep the players hungry and not complacent.

Therrien 2.0 is a dramatic improvement over the 1.0 version.
Yes, 2.0 is a lot better, and I do see your point regarding Eller. But if Therrien really sees how good Eller is, why does he never play the powerplay compared to guys like Gionta? At the start of the year, for the first 15ish games, why didn't Lars PK, even though he's clearly one of our best defensive forwards?

Like I said, I like Therrien. He's a good coach, and he's done a fabulous job thus far. But that doesn't mean he's perfect and doesn't make mistakes.

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03-14-2013, 10:54 PM
  #171
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Subban's offensive awareness and sense to make the right play in such situations has improved astronomically in these few weeks since has arrived. As a pointman, he has matured greatly. He''s not winding up every time and he's patient in waiting for shooting lanes.

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03-14-2013, 10:55 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
An effective coach handles indidvidual players differently on his team.

Look at what adversity did for Eller. He is a completely different and more confident player than he was last year.

Look at the improvements of Subban after being on the 3rd pairing.

Sometimes a leader understands that you need to have players prove their worth which in turn increases their worth. Keep the players hungry and not complacent.

Therrien 2.0 is a dramatic improvement over the 1.0 version.
I have a hard time with this. Don't get me wrong, I think Therrien did a great job. But I disagree that he's the one that merits the credit for what PK and Eller are showing.

PK had already proven himself effective of shutting down top opponents. This wasn't new. This kid had tremendous talent and was already putting it to use in previous years. I doubt PK left last year thinking he needed to work on nothing, that his game was perfect. He even said during the interviews how hard he had practiced all summer. I'm sure Therrien and JJ are coaching him things as he goes, but he was already a solid player and he would have had the same success elsewhere imo. Heck, even under a moronic and clueless duo last year with RC-RL, he still managed to look good!
PK's 3rd line pairing was stupid. So was having him on the 2nd PP wave with Bouillon.
The only reason he was moved up was because Diaz got injured as well. It's not because they somehow noticed a change and felt he was ready. Diaz gets injured, PK gets a lot more icetime and responsibilities, and there you have it, he looks as solid as ever.
The way we used him early one was a waste. A waste of our best player. He never had any issues being placed in a high pressure situation, he actually responded very well to it. So, this isn't new, and if you look at how this kid has developed over his years since Juniors, then you'd know this guy improves well and fast.
So again, not surprising, and I don't think Therrien should get that much credit for him.

Same for Eller. I will give Eller all the merit in the world. This kid has been forced out and pushed aside consistently. Even Therrien did it. The whole team plays like crap in game one, but Eller is the one that gets scratched. I mean, we were all very impressed by Armstrong and Moen (just to name 2), God knows they deserved to be there over Eller.
Anyways, kid works hard, comes back. One game he plays 10min, the next 15, back to 12, to 17, plays on the wing, at center, on the 4th line, on the 3rd line. Eller's played some great minutes for us on the PK last year too, he had become very reliable there. A position he was very comfortable with. Well, that was taken away from him and given to less reliable players. This guy was given absolutely every obstacle possible to slow his progression. He sees rookies that have 0 experience and yet, right off the bat, already given better linemates.
I don't think that was the right way to go with Eller. I feel he should have been given better linemates right away, been kept at center, and given PP time (he still doesn't get much of that) as well as regularly used on the PK. I also think that when DD struggled early on, it was a perfect time to move him to the wing and try Eller at centering better wingers (he had earned his right by playing well in the bottom role).

I'll give credit to Therrien for how this team as a whole is prepared and for the rookies. He is a coach so obviously, every player is taking something from him, but in PK and Eller's case, I credit the individuals a lot more and it's not even close.


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03-14-2013, 10:59 PM
  #173
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Subban is ultra serious this year. Even in interviews he doesn't smile, just answers the questions, stares into the camera and walks away.

The kid appears to be forming a killer instinct, which can only be good for the team!

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03-14-2013, 11:04 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
Subban's offensive awareness and sense to make the right play in such situations has improved astronomically in these few weeks since has arrived. As a pointman, he has matured greatly. He''s not winding up every time and he's patient in waiting for shooting lanes.
His wind up wasn't an issue. He had no problem scoring 14goals with it in his rookie year. I do agree about him being more patient, but I feel this is also greatly influenced from having better options. Having a guy like Markov on the other side that can control the puck patiently and take good decisions gives PK the time to position himself well. Don't you see how much they move around at the point? Compare that to our 2nd PP wave where Bouillon and Gorges are stiff.

I don't think this has much to do with maturity. I think it has more to do with having better options. However I do agree that he has matured.

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03-14-2013, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Bergevin is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World.

Do you think that Bergevin just woke up one day and pulled a number out of his ass and ran with it? Remember, his first name is not Pierre and he understands hockey, including player management and what it takes to build a competitive team.

In the Cap World of the NHL, One Million dollars per year one way or the other over time is insignificant. One million dollars is what you would pay a press box sitter.

In the Cap World of the NHL, the $3 to $4 million cost savings for the next two years (not giving Subban the moon immediately) equals adding a very good DMan to this roster or a very good forward. Not Corey Perry, but a damned good forward.

I think Bergevin has a plan on how to pay Subban his salary in two years while making the moves on the team to make it possible. He learned well in Chicago.

Look how easily he made Cole's contract disappear. Same for Gomez. And soon to be same for Kaberle.


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