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Thank Holmgren for the Flyers Poor Performance

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Old
03-14-2013, 02:45 PM
  #126
LegionOfDoom91
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Get a coach that cares about Defnese and PMD and we probably won't be having this conversation next year.

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Old
03-14-2013, 02:47 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Maybe trade Couturier for a point producing d. Get rid of, hopefully trade Briere, get a coach that fits the roster better and focuses more on a St. Louis or Phoenix type game.

That should be good.
Laughton better be ready to fill that role next year then, and that defenseman better be in the same age range of the rest of the team. Guys like Shattenkirk and OEL are obviously a no-go, but I wouldn't mind them trying to target a guy like Kulikov, Justin Faulk, Nick Leddy, or John Carlson. Pieces might have to be added here or there, but that's the category of guy that they should target if Couturier becomes available.

I just can't help but wonder how much better this team would be playing if Hitch was still coaching for the Flyers.

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Old
03-14-2013, 02:53 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Get a coach that cares about Defnese and PMD and we probably won't be having this conversation next year.
That and prickly personality got him fired with Carolina.

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Old
03-14-2013, 03:00 PM
  #129
Giroux tha Damaja
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
This. At that time, Johnson wasn't available. So can't blame Holmes for that one...but at the time LA had an insane amount of D prospects. Could've asked for one of them instead of the 2nd rounder.
I wouldn't be too surprised if he did and Lombardi told him to kick rocks, since he was already getting two really good young players. I might be wrong here as I don't keep close track of picks, but I think the 2nd ended up getting swapped for Grossmann who is one of the few players who's performance is regarded as acceptable by most Flyers fans. So we're probably okay with how it happened. And of course JJ turned into Carter for you guys, so you feel pretty good about it, I'm sure.

As a Kings fan it's probably natural to look at those trades when trying to figure out what's going on with the Flyers, since they were such big ones. But really Simmonds, Voracek, Schenn and Grossman have all been anywhere from excellent to at least decent this year.

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Old
03-14-2013, 03:03 PM
  #130
Jules Winnfield
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Holmgren ****ed up in a few places IMO but besides that I give him credit because he's not willing to stand by and will have the balls to make a change, unlike someone like McPhee.

Where Holmgren ****ed up...

1) Signing Bryzgalov to that monster deal. What was the point of this? The Flyers just got to the SCF with Leighton. Bryzgalov was not Roy or Hasek in his prime. Teams like Chicago, the Flyers, and Red Wings have shown you don't need a killer goalie with a name to win, i.e. Luongo. I could understand that contract if it was a franchise goalie that became available but not for Bryz. Bryz is a good goalie but not a great goalie you throw that term/money at.

2) Not re-signing Jagr and trading JvR for Schenn and losing Carle. Losing Jagr reminded me of when the Wings lost Hossa. Both great players that when they went to other teams left a void for secondary scoring. Trading JvR for Schenn also contributed to the Flyers losing secondary scoring. JvR has been a beast this year. Loss of secondary scoring when guys like Giroux, Briere, etc aren't racking up points has been a problem. Maybe losing Carle made Holmgren feel like he needed another defender back there.

As a Pens fan, I never felt threatened by the Flyers defense, with or without Pronger. The Flyers ability to roll 4 lines that could beat you in all 3 zones and on special teams is what made them a threat.

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Old
03-14-2013, 03:07 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Depending on if Philly is willing to buyout Bryz, Schneider + Edler for Simmonds + Couts could be a good base for a deal but I don't know how Philly feels about Elder and Schneider.
That fact that I would consider it means that the philly fans say we need to add a big + or something

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Old
03-14-2013, 03:18 PM
  #132
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Holmgren ****ed up in a few places IMO but besides that I give him credit because he's not willing to stand by and will have the balls to make a change, unlike someone like McPhee.

Where Holmgren ****ed up...

1) Signing Bryzgalov to that monster deal. What was the point of this? The Flyers just got to the SCF with Leighton. Bryzgalov was not Roy or Hasek in his prime. Teams like Chicago, the Flyers, and Red Wings have shown you don't need a killer goalie with a name to win, i.e. Luongo. I could understand that contract if it was a franchise goalie that became available but not for Bryz. Bryz is a good goalie but not a great goalie you throw that term/money at.

2) Not re-signing Jagr and trading JvR for Schenn and losing Carle. Losing Jagr reminded me of when the Wings lost Hossa. Both great players that when they went to other teams left a void for secondary scoring. Trading JvR for Schenn also contributed to the Flyers losing secondary scoring. JvR has been a beast this year. Loss of secondary scoring when guys like Giroux, Briere, etc aren't racking up points has been a problem. Maybe losing Carle made Holmgren feel like he needed another defender back there.
1) The mis handling of Bryz and Bobrovsky is really the screw up that begets a lot of the other screw ups, in a way. As for the D personnel, I really think there is a dissonance between Laviolette's style and Holmgren's team building philosophy. Since before we got Pronger he's talked about how the team needs a bunch of big nasties back there. Well, we have em now, and we're getting our ***** handed to us.

2) Spot on with the JvR trade IMO. I don't know if replacing what Carle brought was the reason for targeting Schenn as much as reuniting the two brothers and just needing another defenseman in general (their games are very different). It was a mistake regardless (how big a mistake remains to be seen).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
As a Pens fan, I never felt threatened by the Flyers defense, with or without Pronger. The Flyers ability to roll 4 lines that could beat you in all 3 zones and on special teams is what made them a threat.
I think there's two reasons that this is true. The first is that when our defense was on point, it served to almost make up for tragic goal tending. So the sum of them was a team that was of average difficulty to score against. The second is that when you have Sid and Malkin, they're gonna find a way to do their thing more often than not. A fantastic defense can slow them down and maybe keep them from getting as many dangerous opportunities as they normally would, but when you're Sidney Crosby and the goalie your facing sucks, you don't need a "good" opportunity to put one past him.

It sucks they never had a good goalie behind them, because that top four D was able to will Michael Leighton to shut outs in the conference finals. They probably would've been able to win it all with an average starter back there. C'est la vie I guess.

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Old
03-14-2013, 03:26 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Holmgren ****ed up in a few places IMO but besides that I give him credit because he's not willing to stand by and will have the balls to make a change, unlike someone like McPhee.

Where Holmgren ****ed up...

1) Signing Bryzgalov to that monster deal. What was the point of this? The Flyers just got to the SCF with Leighton. Bryzgalov was not Roy or Hasek in his prime. Teams like Chicago, the Flyers, and Red Wings have shown you don't need a killer goalie with a name to win, i.e. Luongo. I could understand that contract if it was a franchise goalie that became available but not for Bryz. Bryz is a good goalie but not a great goalie you throw that term/money at.

2) Not re-signing Jagr and trading JvR for Schenn and losing Carle. Losing Jagr reminded me of when the Wings lost Hossa. Both great players that when they went to other teams left a void for secondary scoring. Trading JvR for Schenn also contributed to the Flyers losing secondary scoring. JvR has been a beast this year. Loss of secondary scoring when guys like Giroux, Briere, etc aren't racking up points has been a problem. Maybe losing Carle made Holmgren feel like he needed another defender back there.

As a Pens fan, I never felt threatened by the Flyers defense, with or without Pronger. The Flyers ability to roll 4 lines that could beat you in all 3 zones and on special teams is what made them a threat.
Jagr was pretty ineffective second half of last season. I don't view him as a huge loss, as he contributed next to nothing in the 2nd half of last season. As for Carle, the Flyers would still have been short of that #1 d-man that could make the team a real contender and Carle wanted a lot of money. He took a risk, and it didn't pay off, but it's understandable as to why they took it.

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Old
03-14-2013, 06:23 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
They had those tack on years to lower the AAV. They did the same thing with Briere. They front load it, so that potentially at the end of it the actual payroll is low and a team that needs to get to the cap floor but doesn't want high payroll would find the contract attractive when the player is on his last legs. It's actually a smart contract structure. You have to be blind not to acknowledge that.

Look at a team like the Islanders. They traded for Tim Thomas KNOWING he wasn't going to play just so they could get his 5M cap hit with 0 salary.
I'm familiar with the concept of spreading it out to reduce the cap hit. Everyone is. We have seen this constantly during the cap era, many times by the Flyers themselves. If thats what Holmgren and Snider had in mind, what was with putting a NMC in it? Pronger was just going to waive it when he turned 40 and hope Wayne Wang wants his contract so he can cheap out on his fans again? How many organizations in the league subsist just to provide a safe harbor for bad Flyer contracts? I'm not talking about Briere, or other players who still have value.

Then again, if thats the kind of thinking Flyers management was applying, maybe your explanation of wanting to 'just try and see' if the NHL was going to accept the under-35 explanation was true.

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Old
03-14-2013, 06:36 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Accelleratii View Post
The Flyers are a wreck. Anyone who watches hockey can see it. They have ZERO transition game, their team D is terrible and Timonen is the second highest scoring Dman in za league because...well, he's the only one capable of moving the puck up ice from the back end.

Who can we blame?

Paul Holmgrem. He has mismanaged this hockey club. Going hard for Parise and Suter (we all knew they were signing in Minny) and that offer sheet Nashville had to match, he completely overlooked what he had. Matt Carle, albeit prone to turnovers, could move the puck up ice and they simply let him walk. In the NHL you absolutely need a good transition game and the Flyers deserve to be in the bottom third of the league because the simply lack it.

In Richards and Carter he traded offense for offense. He could've easily requested the services of J Johnson from LA in the Richards deal instead of the pick and Simmonds. Schenn, Simmonds and Voracek are all great hockey players and have provided plentiful offense but sheesh, that D sure looks bad!

Yet again a Flyers GM has overlooked the defense and he ought to fix it sooner then later for our sake and his own.

So if you were GM of Flyers, what would you do?
Fire myself and if i was the GM of the Oilers i would fire myself and repay the money i stole for doing nothing ... Ps i am an Oiler fan

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03-14-2013, 06:39 PM
  #136
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I've been waiting to hear Lindy Ruff has been hired in Philly since he's been fired.. I think he'd be a decent fit.

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Old
03-14-2013, 07:09 PM
  #137
NoNecksCurse
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in hindsight flyers fans, would you give up more for weber or would you still have held firm?

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03-14-2013, 07:18 PM
  #138
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Thank you, Paul.

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Old
03-14-2013, 08:43 PM
  #139
Legend Killer
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Turris
Ceci
Lehner
Peumpel
1st
Luke Richardson(coach)


For
Simmonds
Giroux

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Old
03-14-2013, 09:05 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Defense View Post


Jake Gardiner



Sean Corturier

As a Leafs fan don't want to trade Gardiner but Leafs are not even bothering to utilize him. I think a blockbuster trade can be made between these 2 teams.
Would have to be Gardiner + to be of fair value.

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03-14-2013, 09:26 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
in hindsight flyers fans, would you give up more for weber or would you still have held firm?
You'd have to define "more". The alleged offers were Meszaros/Read/picks from the Flyers - which I totally get wasn't enough and Schenn/Couturier/++ which was insanity for the Flyers. I would have been willing to find middle ground back then and still would now.

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Old
03-14-2013, 09:36 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Turris
Ceci
Lehner
Peumpel
1st
Luke Richardson(coach)


For
Simmonds
Giroux
That is atrocious. If you want Giroux start with Karlsson, though neither team would have to add.

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Old
03-14-2013, 09:37 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
in hindsight flyers fans, would you give up more for weber or would you still have held firm?
Not for couturies, b schenn ++ which dreger said was what it would take.

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Old
03-14-2013, 09:54 PM
  #144
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
in hindsight flyers fans, would you give up more for weber or would you still have held firm?
More than what? That's important. I would certainly do more than Read + Meszaros + picks. Would I do Schenn + Couturier +? That's still ano form me. I'm not freaking out yet. This is 30 bad games resulting from some correctable problems. This isn't years of futility. There is talent on the roster, so if some problems get identified and corrected, we should be able to be back in contention for a play off spot next year.

As time passes I'm becoming more and more convinced that Laviolette isn't the man for the job anymore. I think if you need a coach to squeeze every last drop out of a veteran, contending team for a couple years, he's your guy. Like what he did for us in 2010 with that line up. He and they were amazing and I'm happy he came to coach for us. But this roster has turned over so much, I think they might need a different philosophy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Turris
Ceci
Lehner
Peumpel
1st
Luke Richardson(coach)


For
Simmonds
Giroux
I can see why you thought that might do it for us. Turris as the downgrade at center, with Lehner helping us in a problem area in net and Peumpel being a nice D prospect, plus the first of course. But the Flyers aren't in a full on fire sale mode, and they wouldn't move Giroux if they were. Additionally if they do move him it's gonna take stupid value to get him, the kind of value that would almost certainly make acquiring him a counter productive move, unless you have a star goalie and a couple Alex Edlers laying around you can't find minutes for (and nobody has it like that).

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Old
03-14-2013, 10:34 PM
  #145
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Holmgren deserves some blame, but not most of it. He made some ballsy moves and has put together a very impressive core of forwards. Behind Giroux and Hartnell, Simmonds and Vorecek are starting to really break out. Once Couturier and Schenn start to become more established players, their offense will be really impressive (Matt Read is no slouch either for a college signing). Rinaldo is becoming the ultimate pest...and Laughton and Cousins could come along a form a very tough bottom 3 to play against.

Their defense needs work, but you people forget Holmgren made his big moves anticipating having Pronger to lead his defense. Pronger going down was a significant loss, and unfortunately his presence seems to have been the defensive glue for this team.

Where Holmgren struggles is the little moves...bringing in the supporting cast for this core of his. Gervais, Foster, Fedotanko...all were awful signings. If he can make some clever depth moves and get his coach (or a new one) to get these guys on the same page, and playing a system as a team...then the Flyers will be a contender for years to come. At the moment however, that IF seems like a big one.

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Old
03-14-2013, 10:40 PM
  #146
Giroux tha Damaja
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Meh, Fedetenko is payed like a 4th liner and plays like it. He's a good veteran PKer, I don't mind that signing really. The sum of his moves is a mess right now, but no single move aside from his signing of Bryz and moving of Bob stands out as a total ****-up.

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03-14-2013, 10:57 PM
  #147
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I don't get why people think the JVR for Luke Schenn trade was a bad trade for the Flyers. Schenn has been fantastic for the Flyers and has looked much more like the defenseman he was drafted to be - an elite shutdown guy. People talk about JVR and his 12 goals, but honestly, he wouldn't be putting up those numbers in Philadelphia. JVR needed to get out of Philadelphia, just like Schenn needed to get out of Toronto. This was a win win trade for both players.

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:02 PM
  #148
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VanRiemsdyk for L.Schenn is really biting this team in the ass... And losing record aside the only three peeps on the flyers with a positive in the +- is L. Schenn, Timo and of all people leading the flyers with a +6 Ruslan Fedastankho hahaha

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:12 PM
  #149
#57
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
until they can finally find a guy that can help offset the loss of Pronger (which is the biggest reason why this team is struggling... one injury)
Like the Habs without Markov last year

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03-14-2013, 11:14 PM
  #150
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Sami Vatanen + pick for Wayne Simmonds

DSP - Etem - Simmonds

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