I heard him say this on TSN radio Toronto earlier today. I can't believe he's actually serious about this.
I mean, Iggy is an upgrade over Kennedy on Sutter's line and everything...
Seriously, that's just warped thinking.
At this point, it's not just that he's a tool for manufacturing speculation to write ******** stories. It's that he's also criminally ignorant about the sport if he doesn't see Iginla as a nice upgrade for our top 6.
I'd say the comparable offer is what the Rags gave up for Nash.
To NYR: Nash + Delisle + 3rd (Conditional)
TO CLB: Dubinsky + Anisimov + Erixon + 1st
Erixon is now on his 3rd team and that's never a good sign, Dubinsky is barely a top 6 player and Anisimov might be the only decent player out of that bunch outside of that 1st.
Drop Kreider and ok...
TO NYR: Orpik + 1st + TK/Jeffrey/Glass + D'Agostino
TO PGH: Gaborik
But the Jackets HAD to move Nash and there was really only one team in the running, because Nash controlled everything. Gaborik has a NTC but I doubt it would affect our interest in him. Assuming Shero actually is interested.
Columbus was in rebuilding mode when they made the Nash deal. The Blueshirts aren't really rebuilding here. They just want certain types of players. So, let's not give them a first rounder. Let's give them what they want: Niskanen, Dupuis and Glass would be what they'd want...right offensive defenseman for their top six, size and grit for their bottom six. Sather already had Dupuis for a little while, too, during the Jagr era. He knows him well.
Then, to seal the deal, Orpik could be added. Then we could get a little something back from the Rangers, and then we would be in position to go shopping for a short-term defenseman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp
You know it's because everyone is saying 'OMG YOU CAN'T MOVE DUPUIS FROM THAT LINE!"
Hell, Sid may even believe it. This is Sid. Dupuis probably got the #87 tattooed on his ass.
This is SO similar to 2008. Colby Armstrong was the 'heart and soul' of this team. OMG we traded Colby! OMG
Yea, but I think the team may really believe it this time. It's hard to ignore counting stats
The job of the GM though is to improve his team. And selling high whenever a player is producing above his head is usually a great way of improving your team.
We have a few players we could sell high right now that would improve our chances of winning the Stanley Cup, imo.
Yea, but I think the team may really believe it this time. It's hard to ignore counting stats
Yes, Colby was coming off a 12 goal year in 80 games and had 9 in 54 that season. I would say it was a little different. Colby Armstrong has a career high of 40 points. Duper had 25 goals last season and 59 points.
In saying that, if they have a chance to get Iggy, they will. It is Ray Shero.
The job of the GM though is to improve his team. And selling high whenever a player is producing above his head is usually a great way of improving your team.
We have a few players we could sell high right now that would improve our chances of winning the Stanley Cup, imo.
Sure, if Dupuis has actual real value and not "2nd-round pick" value, because even when he's playing normal Pascal Dupuis, I think he's a valuable player on a cup team. Just not a 1st-line winger.
So if it's true that Sid/Shero got Orpik to sign for significantly less than he could have elsewhere, does that make Shero a little hesitant to move him? I.E. maybe I owe it to this guy to let him dig himself out of the dumps instead of moving him while he's playing through a funk.
Did anyone in Canada watch the insider trading segment? Any rumors to report?
Yes. Re Iginla, he "suggested' that along with Boston + Pittsburgh, which are the "obvious" destinations, that L.A. are also interested if Jarome is made available, which he believes is a near certainty, and that the Kings would dangle Bernier.
But what's probably more relevant is Bobie Mac's assertion (aka reminder of the fact) that any trade for Jarome Iginla would have to be done IN CONCERT with Jarome Iginla. Some people assume he wants to stay in the West to be closer to home (this could be true or false, it's 100% speculation at this point, since Jarome has never talked about it). But perhaps Jarome wants to go East so he doesn't have to compete against his former team; or to get more of a "fresh start" and distance from Calgary; or because travel is easier in the East; or because he specifically wants to play with Sid/the Pens, or some other specific player/team.
In short, Jarome will decide where he wants to go to, and he will tell CGY. His list could be 1 team long, or it could be 3 or 4 teams long. Nobody knows, and Jarome will control his destination, and rightfully so. Until he or the Flames start to discuss this publicly, we will just have to wait and see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGoPens70
Also some info on college free agents.
Yes. Mentioned Sustr as one of the top-3 guys. If Sustr were to sign with the Pens, and they view him as near-NHL ready, it could make a guy like Bortuzzo available (whom I wouldn't want to trade without an adequate replacement), which could generate a great return. But he also mentioned that the other top Dman (forget his name) was the clear-cut #1 college UFA that teams were going after, which could be good for us regarding Sustr, since he's not the only (or considered the best) college UFA Dman this year.
Also, what I found interesting, though I'm not sure if correct, was the info he said about Agostino's Yale teammate, Antoine Laganiere. I always saw him listed as a centre, but McKenzie mentioned him as a RWer. If the latter is true, or if he projects to be a RW at the pro level, he could be a very nice fit for us, because that would bring us significant size to our RW position, and forward depth in general, which we need (#Wingerz). That being said, I have zero knowledge of this player, and yet the Pens know him well from their summer camp, so we'll see how much they think of him by whether they're in on the race to sign him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBenSF
Trading Duper right now would cause riots
And rightfully so. Now I, too, would like to see Dupers be on the 3rd line instead of the 1st, but let's give this guy some credit for not only being among our better & most consistent players, and for improving in each of the last few years; but let's also give this guy HUGE credit for taking a significant hometown discount the last time he signed. And because of that, and how much he loves being here, there is every reason to believe he will take a signifcant discount to re-sign here beyond this season (i.e. only a modest raise over his current salary, such as in the $2 to $2.5 range tops, IMO).
As a cap team with key players we need to re-sign (Malkin, Letang, Kunitz, and perhaps even Cooke & Nisky), we need players like Dupers who will take less to stay here. We need to ADD to our RW depth, not trade Dupers out for one other RWer, even if that other player was younger/better. He is a key guy in our dressing room and can contribute even when not scoring. Trading Dupers for, say, Gaborik or Setoguchi, may create as many problems as it solves. We have to trade from defense (preferably Orpik, who sucked tonight) rather than what little forward depth we have. TK, on the other hand, can be had for a bag of **** (a bag of pucks would be a compliment )
Yes, Colby was coming off a 12 goal year in 80 games and had 9 in 54 that season. I would say it was a little different. Colby Armstrong has a career high of 40 points. Duper had 25 goals last season and 59 points.
Armstrong was equally important, though. Played in all situations, just like Dupuis. And let's not forget the physical force he used to be. He was a BIG reason why we were able to snag Hossa.
Armstrong was equally important, though. Played in all situations, just like Dupuis. And let's not forget the physical force he used to be. He was a BIG reason why we were able to snag Hossa.
Why does he not play that way anymore? i miss that physical side to his game. It seemed to die in Pittsburgh.
Yes. Re Iginla, he "suggested' that along with Boston + Pittsburgh, which are the "obvious" destinations, that L.A. are also interested if Jarome is made available, which he believes is a near certainty, and that the Kings would dangle Bernier.
But what's probably more relevant is Bobie Mac's assertion (aka reminder of the fact) that any trade for Jarome Iginla would have to be done IN CONCERT with Jarome Iginla. Some people assume he wants to stay in the West to be closer to home (this could be true or false, it's 100% speculation at this point, since Jarome has never talked about it). But perhaps Jarome wants to go East so he doesn't have to compete against his former team; or to get more of a "fresh start" and distance from Calgary; or because travel is easier in the East; or because he specifically wants to play with Sid/the Pens, or some other specific player/team.
In short, Jarome will decide where he wants to go to, and he will tell CGY. His list could be 1 team long, or it could be 3 or 4 teams long. Nobody knows, and Jarome will control his destination, and rightfully so. Until he or the Flames start to discuss this publicly, we will just have to wait and see.
And rightfully so. Now I, too, would like to see Dupers be on the 3rd line instead of the 1st, but let's give this guy some credit for not only being among our better & most consistent players, and for improving in each of the last few years; but let's also give this guy HUGE credit for taking a significant hometown discount the last time he signed. And because of that, and how much he loves being here, there is every reason to believe he will take a signifcant discount to re-sign here beyond this season (i.e. only a modest raise over his current salary, such as in the $2 to $2.5 range tops, IMO).
As a cap team with key players we need to re-sign (Malkin, Letang, Kunitz, and perhaps even Cooke & Nisky), we need players like Dupers who will take less to stay here. We need to ADD to our RW depth, not trade Dupers out for one other RWer, even if that other player was younger/better. He is a key guy in our dressing room and can contribute even when not scoring. Trading Dupers for, say, Gaborik or Setoguchi, may create as many problems as it solves. We have to trade from defense (preferably Orpik, who sucked tonight) rather than what little forward depth we have. TK, on the other hand, can be had for a bag of **** (a bag of pucks would be a compliment )
Re: Iginla, I think IF he chooses to leave Calgary, I have a feeling he'll go play with Darryl Sutter's team. Sutter brings out the best in Iginla. And the fact they're the defending champs gives them a little extra advantage imo.
But I'm still not convinced Iggy's leaving Calgary. Though when Bobby Mac says it, you stop to think.
As for Dupuis, you have to give to get. If he were having Kennedy's season, and Kennedy would be having Dupuis' season, everybody would want Dupuis gone and Kennedy on the third line for life. But we're not getting ANY value whatsoever for Kennedy. Dupuis, on the other hand, has huge value.
Also, I don't believe he'll give the team another discount. And $2.5 million seems excessive for a guy whose offense could go at any time.
GM's have to make tough decisions to improve. Trading Dupuis would be just that. Especially in this year of the hockey trade.
So if it's true that Sid/Shero got Orpik to sign for significantly less than he could have elsewhere, does that make Shero a little hesitant to move him? I.E. maybe I owe it to this guy to let him dig himself out of the dumps instead of moving him while he's playing through a funk.
I don't think Orpik will be moved. I just don't think he has significant enough value around the league to make it worth it to the Pens. Orpik said he stayed with the Pens for less money to win a Cup. He didn't want to start over in a rebuilding situation like Atlanta and even LA was rebuilding at that time. He won his Cup in 2009 so I think he got what he wanted out of taking less to stay here. I don't think the team owes him anything at this point.
So, honest question- with the play of the 1st line and Bennett...does this team really need a top-6 winger at all?
Yup. I like dupuis...and did before he started scoring past few years. But he simply cannot get the puck to Sid. There's a reason Sid has 12 goals and 35 assists. It's because he knows what he has to do for that line to score...perfect passes to dupuis and Kunitz . I can't count how many times dupuis has had the puck in the zone with Crosby wide open ( and other times close to it) in front of the net, yet dupuis failed to see him and ripped off a shot.
I'm not saying its horrible he's on that line, just answering your question. Iginla with Crosby would be insane. Iginla has the playmaking skills and would certainly be able to setup Crosby ( while Sid sets him up as well) , something that has only been done for him a few times this year...usually from letang
Last edited by JimmyTwoTimes: 03-15-2013 at 12:02 AM.
Yup. I like dupuis...and did before he started scoring past few years. But he simply cannot get the puck to Sid. There's a reason Sid has 12 goals and 35 assists. It's because he knows what he has to do for that line to score...perfect passes to dupuis and Kunitz . I can't count how many times dupuis has had the pick in the zone with Crosby wide open ( and other times close to it) in front of the net, yet dupuis failed to see him and ripped off a shot.
I'm not saying its horrible he's on that line, just answering your question. Iginla with Crosby would be insane. Iginla has the playmaking skills and would certainly be able to setup Crosby ( while Sid sets him up as well) , something that has only been done for him a few times this year...usually from letang
Plus it would really help our bottom 6 to move Dupuis down there. Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis looks a lot better than what we have right now with Kennedy.
Re: Iginla, I think IF he chooses to leave Calgary, I have a feeling he'll go play with Darryl Sutter's team. Sutter brings out the best in Iginla. And the fact they're the defending champs gives them a little extra advantage imo.
But I'm still not convinced Iggy's leaving Calgary. Though when Bobby Mac says it, you stop to think.
You're obviously not getting my point. It is totally pointless and futile for people to speculate that he wants to go to LA, or that he wants to go to the Pens, or that he wants to stay in CGY, etc. It's not just you, so I don't mean to take it out on you, but I'm tired of hearing everyone say stuff like this. Very simply:
(A) NOBODY knows ANYTHING about where Jarome may want to go or what teams are seriously contenders for his services until such time as either the Flames or Jarome make it public. Until then, it's just a bunch of opinions or speculation that are meaningless. I have no problenm with people making trade PROPOSALS (such as IF Iginla was availalbe, because all such proposals are based on hypotheticals), but I have a problem with people stating -- without ANY source or ANY credible info -- that he wants to go to a certain team or play for a certain coach or whatever. It's entirely dumb and irrelevant.
(B) While there is no certain info about whether Jarome will be made available by trade, there are CREDIBLE people (McKenzie, LeBrun, Dreger, Eric Francis) who are all singing the same tune: that they believe that Jarome will be made available and/or want to move if the Flames are out of contention. Couple this with the publicly-known fact that Jarome has neither signed an extension or explicitly stated he is intending on doing so, and it is pretty damn clear that there's more than a strong probability that he could be available by trade if the Flames are out of contention. So again, I have a problem when people, with zero credible sources or direct ties to the player/their agent/their team, state that they simply believe that Jarome "doesn't want to leave Calgary".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
As for Dupuis, you have to give to get. If he were having Kennedy's season, and Kennedy would be having Dupuis' season, everybody would want Dupuis gone and Kennedy on the third line for life. But we're not getting ANY value whatsoever for Kennedy. Dupuis, on the other hand, has huge value.
Also, I don't believe he'll give the team another discount. And $2.5 million seems excessive for a guy whose offense could go at any time.
GM's have to make tough decisions to improve. Trading Dupuis would be just that. Especially in this year of the hockey trade.
I don't deny the concept that you have to give to get, but the question is this: the Penguins, a team that has a clearly established need for wingers; do they really trade Dupuis when they are making a Cup run? And does he hold more value to the Penguins as a (productive) linemate for Crosby, or on the trade market where teams are lining up because they think he's the missing piece to their puzzle? I think the answer is clear. Dupuis holds much more value to this team than he does on the open trade market.
He is also a player that has shown a VERY distinct interest in staying with the Penguins, so as a pending UFA, does that sound like a player that (insert team here) would give up an NHL-ready asset who will make our team better for Pascal Dupuis? Again, I think the answer is clear.
Furthermore, I believe that the very definition of "upgrading" our team is to fix the parts that are not working well. Dupuis is not part of the problem on our team. He is our 3rd leading goal scorer, and makes less than the league average salary. I believe that the best way to upgrade a team is to look at the "weakest links" or the parts of the equation that are not working, and upgrade those areas. At forward, those positions are clearly Tyler Kennedy, and Tanner Glass. Both of these players are contributing nothing -- and I don't count Glass's PK time, because that could be replaced by 10 other people, in as good or better a fashion, the very next day and even from within our existing line-up (i.e. Jeffrey/Kunitz/Malkin/Vitale, or even dressing 7d and using 3 D at a time on the PK. Radical? Yes, but that's how bad/replaceable he is) -- and if we can upgrade their spots, then we will have a better team.
Now, I have ZERO problem with moving Dupers down to the 3rd line if we get someone better for Sid, and I have zero problem keeping Dupers on the 1st line if we can get someone better than TK for that role. But in either scenario, the common denominator is upgrading that 3rd line RW positionn (which can be done directly, or indirectly by upgrading the 1st line RW). And if I look beyond this current season, I look at Kennedy, Glass and Orpik and I say "see ya later", and simultaneously look at Dupuis, Cooke, Kunitz and perhaps Niskanen as guys that I want to re-tain for the next couple of years because they are good players and make us a competitive team, and also because they are all guys who will almost certainly take a signifcant discount to stay here. A bird in the hand, you know?
If you want to give quality to get quality, and you want to compete for the Cup now, then you trade a quality prospect (i.e. Maatta, Dumoulin, etc) for a quality player. Trust me, top prospects like that hold much more value than old, expiring UFAs who have an affinity/allegiance to Pittsburgh and offer no value to a rebuilding/re-tooling team.
So if it's true that Sid/Shero got Orpik to sign for significantly less than he could have elsewhere, does that make Shero a little hesitant to move him? I.E. maybe I owe it to this guy to let him dig himself out of the dumps instead of moving him while he's playing through a funk.
No, it doesn't matter at all, IMO, unless Shero truly believes that he either (A) wants to keep Orpik for beyond this season, or (B) that Orpik is essential for our playoff run and outweighs what he could get for him via trade at/before the deadline. But I don't think he "owes" him anything. We saw Shero trade Michalek 2 years after he signed as a UFA. What I don't think Shero will do is ask Brooks to waive his limited-NTC by going to a team that wasn't on his list; but I do believe he has every right to (and should) trade Brooks to a team that is on his list of accepted teams. It was several years ago that Brooks signed, so it's not like he signed-then-traded him quickly. That ship has sailed, and Brooks is free to be a tradeable asset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Clavin
So, honest question- with the play of the 1st line and Bennett...does this team really need a top-6 winger at all?
Well, we desperately need to upgrade our 3rd line RW spot (which I believe must come from outside), and Glass' spot (though I believe that can come from within, namely by keeping Jeffrey on the 4th line and ditching Glass when Geno comes back).
To address the former need, of upgrading 3rd line RW, and as I just said above: I have no problem whether upgrading that position comes in the form of directly moving TK out and someone else in (i.e. Setoguchi, Glencross, etc.), or getting a higher-end 1st line guy (i.e. Iginla, Stewart, Perry) and bump Dupuis down to 3rd line RW. In either scenario, we get the same net effect of upgrading that position. The only question is by how much do we upgrade, and what would be the cost for doing so? (i.e. do we want to give up a Despres/1st/Morrow/Pouliot/etc.)
Niskanen, Dupuis and Glass for Gaborik. Do it Ray Ray.
No way in hell I would do that deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoktorZaius
I hadn't really thought if it that way before. But yeah, our cap situation isn't nearly as dire as I often assume, once the trash gets taken out.
This is from a hot-off-the-presses Rossi article. Does anyone know what the **** he's talking about? It's just so stupid that I have hard time understanding what those words are supposed to mean.
Rossi... so guys we can without a doubt expect a trade to happen within the next 24-48 hours then!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Clavin
So, honest question- with the play of the 1st line and Bennett...does this team really need a top-6 winger at all?
Yes, anytime you can upgrade your team in ANY area... you do it.
Matthias would be a nice acquisition though we would be buying him High.
He scored a nice sorry yesterday (8th goal of the season).
Size, nice hands, low cap hit, young, and some defensive prowess. Plus, you an consider the Panthers as Sellers now.
Mueller would also be nice :-)
Any veteran clutch playoff pro formers that have a scoring touch for the 4th line? I agree we need a good RW for Sid. I also think we need some scoring and gritt for the 4th line. thanks
So, honest question- with the play of the 1st line and Bennett...does this team really need a top-6 winger at all?
I'm in the minority (at least of people active in this thread), but IMO, no they don't. I don't buy the idea that the first line has will somehow get shut down in the playoffs. I mean any line might get shut down in a given series but the idea that the first line is somehow fatally flawed due to Duper's inadequacy, I simply don't buy that notion, and don't accept the questionable and specious evidence that is often presented for same.
Now sure if there's an obvious upgrade there to be had, go for it. But they shouldn't break the bank by any stretch and personally I would target third line upgrades.
I'm in the minority (at least of people active in this thread), but IMO, no they don't. I don't buy the idea that the first line has will somehow get shut down in the playoffs. I mean any line might get shut down in a given series but the idea that the first line is somehow fatally flawed due to Duper's inadequacy, I simply don't buy that notion, and don't accept the questionable and specious evidence that is often presented for same.
Now sure if there's an obvious upgrade there to be had, go for it. But they shouldn't break the bank by any stretch and personally I would target third line upgrades.
I agree that upgrading the 3rd and 4th lines is a much bigger priority that the top 6, however if upgrading the top six for the right deal strengthens the bottom 6 that's better, because we have little top 6 depth right now. Jeffrey/Sutter/Kennedy are not guys I want playing in the top 6 in the playoffs due to injury or Bennett playing like crap. Hence why I'm in favor of getting a 2nd/3rd line tweener with some grit, like Kulemin or Clowe, to give us a top 6 option AND upgrade the bottom 6.
So, honest question- with the play of the 1st line and Bennett...does this team really need a top-6 winger at all?
I think the major thought with this is that by adding a top 6, we improve the bottom 6 which is MUCH more of a need. IMO, I'd rather go out and get a 3rd and a 4th liner, and let the top 6 be. It'll cost us less in assets to acquire these guys, than one top 6.
I do worry about BB in the playoffs, but at the same time I don't want him on the 3rd line.
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