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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:36 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Actually, I would create such thread, if I thought that Fedorov is the No. 1 hockey player of all time.

But I only rank Sergei second. After Bob Nystrom.

.....zing


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03-13-2013, 06:02 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Off the top of my head, Lindros in 1997 was swept, Forsberg in 1999 and 2002 didn't make it to the Finals, Gaborik was a point away from leading in 2003 without making it to the Finals, and I want to say that Giroux nearly did it from two rounds of work in 2012. It's not that strange, but still quite an accomplishment.
Well, when the list from the past 20 years includes Lindros and Forsberg, you're in good company. But going back to the '94/95 lockout, I think the full list of players to lead the playoffs in point scoring in a losing cause (not necessarily swept) reads as such:

'95 Fedorov
'97 Lindros
'99 Forsberg
'00 Hull
'02 Forsberg
'07 Spezza/Heatley/Alfredsson (lol)
'08 *Crosby (tied Zetterberg, technically)
'10 Briere

So you're right, not so "rare" in terms of frequency if not limited to a sweep, but the company you keep on that list kind of is - Briere and Heatley aside, perhaps. .

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Like I said though, he led the playoffs in scoring because he was able to really pound the stuffing out of San Jose's .850 goaltending (11 points in 4 games). Francis and Fleury had some rounds like that themselves, but they didn't make it out of rounds one/two respectively, so it's not like they were going to chase down Fedorov for the lead. Who else was up there? Broten?
I'm pretty sure anyone who has led the playoffs in scoring in the history of the league has beaten up on one team more than others along the way, and I'm sure goaltending was a factor more often than not. Not sure I'm prepared to put much consideration into series to series production variability, to be honest, or the "root(s)" thereof.

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03-14-2013, 02:53 PM
  #228
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Fedorov easily. Wasn't quite the pure goal Selanne was, but was better in every other aspect and was certainly better defensively.

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03-14-2013, 06:26 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
'08 *Crosby (tied Zetterberg, technically)
Zetterberg won the tiebreaker on goals handily; so unless you're throwing that out, Crosby doesn't make the list.

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03-14-2013, 06:34 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Zetterberg won the tiebreaker on goals handily; so unless you're throwing that out, Crosby doesn't make the list.
He tied for the lead in points. Arbitrary tie-breaking rules are inconsequential.

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03-14-2013, 08:18 PM
  #231
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Fedorov easily. Wasn't quite the pure goal Selanne was, but was better in every other aspect and was certainly better defensively.
Pretty much that. Peak and prime easily go to Fedorov. Career (almost wrote "Kariya") is a toss-up. It's wrong to denigrate a player just because he chose to finish his playing days in KHL vs. NHL. Hopefully, Jagr's legacy isn't gonna be tarnished over this.

Selanne was a scorer, but Fedorov was everything else and on top of that, a winner. And I don't think Norris would be out of the question, had he actually spent a full season on D. The sense, the vision, the passing, the speed, the positioning, the PP-QBacking... sounds like Norris to me! Of course, it would still be a waste.

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03-14-2013, 08:46 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Pretty much that. Peak and prime easily go to Fedorov. Career (almost wrote "Kariya") is a toss-up. It's wrong to denigrate a player just because he chose to finish his playing days in KHL vs. NHL. Hopefully, Jagr's legacy isn't gonna be tarnished over this.

Selanne was a scorer, but Fedorov was everything else and on top of that, a winner. And I don't think Norris would be out of the question, had he actually spent a full season on D. The sense, the vision, the passing, the speed, the positioning, the PP-QBacking... sounds like Norris to me! Of course, it would still be a waste.


Exactly, sounds like Norris. Fedorov was a hockey Chuck Norris

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03-14-2013, 08:59 PM
  #233
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Here are Fedorov's PPG finishes in those four 20+ point playoffs:

1995: Third-place, but we can confidently toss out first-place finisher Theo Fleury who rampaged through a opening round loss at 2ppg. That puts Fedorov second behind Francis, but mere fractions ahead of Leetch and Messier (who only played five less games than Fedorov). Still, Sergei is miles ahead of anyone else who played in the finals. Pretty good season.

1996: Ninth-place. Behind teammate Yzerman. Also behind other immortals such as Petr Nedved and Shayne Corson. Interestingly, also only .053ppg behind an aging Mark Messier.

1997: Tied for tenth-place. Tied, btw, with defensemen Dmitri Mironov and Sandis Ozolinsh. Also a few spots behind Rod Brind'Amour who played a similar role as Fedorov on the Flyers (defensive role, lesser linemates) but whose team sucked in the finals. Remember that comparison to Brind'Amour that someone made a few pages back (and was studiously ignored by the pro-Fedorov crowd)? Sure looks interesting now, huh?

1998: Seventh-place. Behind teammate Yzerman, and barely ahead of teammates Lidstrom and Holmstrom.

What's really interesting in looking at these lists, is the scarcity of players from Detroit's opponents in the three years they made the finals. 1995? No Devils. 1998? No Caps. 1997, of course, is the exception with Philly's, 'big three' all placing ahead of Fedorov in PPG. This begs the question: if the Eastern Conference was capable of producing a champion that wasn't a collection of journeyman trapping for their lives, how much further down these lists would Fedorov fall?

Regardless. Not Fedorov's fault he played against some trap-happy, 'miracle' teams. He took advantage of it, and he deserves credit for that. It was certainly a accomplishment, but let's not act like this makes him God's gift to the playoffs. He was a mid-level producer who strung together some health and consistency on a stacked team that played more games than any other franchise during that time-frame. Actually. . . does four years even count as consistency? Those are the only four years Fedorov ever even cracks the top-ten in PPG!

I mean, even an aging Messier had finishes of 4th, 9th, 4th, 5th and 10th. . . and that's just in the 1990s (y'know, the decade in which Sergei was, 'the most valuable player' in the game ). That's where Fedorov fits on a list of playoff performers. Behind an ancient Messier playing on (for the most part) inferior teams.

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03-14-2013, 09:04 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Here are Fedorov's PPG finishes in those four 20+ point playoffs:

1995: Third-place, but we can confidently toss out first-place finisher Theo Fleury who rampaged through a opening round loss at 2ppg. That puts Fedorov second behind Francis, but mere fractions ahead of Leetch and Messier (who only played five less games than Fedorov). Still, Sergei is miles ahead of anyone else who played in the finals. Pretty good season.

1996: Ninth-place. Behind teammate Yzerman. Also behind other immortals such as Petr Nedved and Shayne Corson. Interestingly, also only .053ppg behind an aging Mark Messier.

1997: Tied for tenth-place. Tied, btw, with defensemen Dmitri Mironov and Sandis Ozolinsh. Also a few spots behind Rod Brind'Amour who played a similar role as Fedorov on the Flyers (defensive role, lesser linemates) but whose team sucked in the finals. Remember that comparison to Brind'Amour that someone made a few pages back (and was studiously ignored by the pro-Fedorov crowd)? Sure looks interesting now, huh?

1998: Seventh-place. Behind teammate Yzerman, and barely ahead of teammates Lidstrom and Holmstrom.

What's really interesting in looking at these lists, is the scarcity of players from Detroit's opponents in the three years they made the finals. 1995? No Devils. 1998? No Caps. 1997, of course, is the exception with Philly's, 'big three' all placing ahead of Fedorov in PPG. This begs the question: if the Eastern Conference was capable of producing a champion that wasn't a collection of journeyman trapping for their lives, how much further down these lists would Fedorov fall?

Regardless. Not Fedorov's fault he played against some trap-happy, 'miracle' teams. He took advantage of it, and he deserves credit for that. It was certainly a accomplishment, but let's not act like this makes him God's gift to the playoffs. He was a mid-level producer who strung together some health and consistency on a stacked team that played more games than any other franchise during that time-frame. Actually. . . does four years even count as consistency? Those are the only four years Fedorov ever even cracks the top-ten in PPG!

I mean, even an aging Messier had finishes of 4th, 9th, 4th, 5th and 10th. . . and that's just in the 1990s (y'know, the decade in which Sergei was, 'the most valuable player' in the game ). That's where Fedorov fits on a list of playoff performers. Behind an ancient Messier playing on (for the most part) inferior teams.
How many of those guys with high PPG in the playoffs were eliminated in the first or second round? It's MUCH harder to maintain a high scoring pace as the playoffs move along.

I'm pretty sure Claude Giroux had the highest PPG in the 2012 playoffs because of dominating the first round, despite the fact that he didn't do so well in the second.

I honestly don't see how anyone who followed hockey in the late 90s could question Fedorov in the playoffs. I thought he was the one Detroit player who never had a bad playoff year (and that includes both Yzerman and Lidstrom).

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03-14-2013, 09:40 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How many of those guys with high PPG in the playoffs were eliminated in the first or second round? It's MUCH harder to maintain a high scoring pace as the playoffs move along.

I'm pretty sure Claude Giroux had the highest PPG in the 2012 playoffs because of dominating the first round, despite the fact that he didn't do so well in the second.

I honestly don't see how anyone who followed hockey in the late 90s could question Fedorov in the playoffs. I thought he was the one Detroit player who never had a bad playoff year (and that includes both Yzerman and Lidstrom).


Great response.

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03-14-2013, 09:43 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How many of those guys with high PPG in the playoffs were eliminated in the first or second round? It's MUCH harder to maintain a high scoring pace as the playoffs move along.

I'm pretty sure Claude Giroux had the highest PPG in the 2012 playoffs because of dominating the first round, despite the fact that he didn't do so well in the second.

I honestly don't see how anyone who followed hockey in the late 90s could question Fedorov in the playoffs. I thought he was the one Detroit player who never had a bad playoff year (and that includes both Yzerman and Lidstrom).
And its also a lot easier to squeak past 20 points when you make the finals every year, right?

I'm not discounting him. He was a playoff performer, no question about it. What I am saying is that these four playoffs are, without a doubt and pretty demonstrably, overrated.

Second of all; for a player being touted as one of the top four of the decade and/or as being more valuable than Gretzky or Lemieux, the fact that we are now at the point of, 'well, some of those NINE people finishing ahead of him in PPG probably don't belond there' says a lot. But sure, I'll play along. . .

1995- Like I said, you can discount Theo Fleury for exactly the reasons you describe. Ron Francis (2nd place) played five less games than Fedorov.

1996- Sakic played more. Mario, well, let's just discount him because he's Mario. Jagr played one less game. Gretzky- same deal as Mario. Roenick played nine less games, so discount him. Nedved; one less game. Yzerman- same team. Corson- six less games, he stands. So being extremely generous to Fedorov, he now moves up to sixth place.

1997- Sakic played three less games. Lindros was a finalist. Claude Lemieux played three less. Gretzky is Gretzky. Kamensky and Forsberg- three less. Kariya- eleven games, let's cut him. And then Brind'Amour and Leclair were, again, finalists. So Feds gets bumped up to eigth place.

1998- Forsberg did a 'Fleury' in a first-round defeat so he's out. Recchi- ten games, he's out. Yzerman's a teammate. Drop the three St Louis Blues who played only ten games (although one's a defenseman, and the other two are journeymen. . .but I want to be fair to Fedorov here). So OK, this year, Sergei moves up from seventh to second. Although, it should be noted, that with those deletions the only people left on the list are Red Wings, of which Fedorov is smack in the middle of; behind Yzerman, just a fraction ahead of Lidstrom (a defenseman) and Holmstrom (one of those 'talentless' wingers poor Sergei always got saddled with). This seems to be just a bizarre year where the other three Conference finalists were Buffalo, Washington and Dallas; all trapping, goalie-oriented teams who didn't have a single PPG player between them. So yes, if we eliminate everyone out in the second-round, Fedorov finishes second in PPG (barely) on the only team left that could score. Bravo.


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03-14-2013, 10:38 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
second-round, Fedorov finishes second in PPG (barely) on the only team left that could score. Bravo.
Your nickname suits you, what can I say.

Btw, Fedorov was injured in the second half of 1997. That makes his goals against Colorado so much more incredible (one of them being the series winner).

He should have won at least one Conn Smythe. Either in 1997 or in 2002. The 2002 campaign was the best two way play I have EVER seen (when he carried the mortally injured Yzerman on his back).

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03-14-2013, 10:53 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
He tied for the lead in points. Arbitrary tie-breaking rules are inconsequential.
One of the following statements is true, and one is not:

Sidney Crosby had the most points in the 2008 playoffs.

Sidney Crosby was the league-leader in points in the 2008 playoffs.

Your list is incorrect because it assumes the false statement to be true.

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03-14-2013, 11:21 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
One of the following statements is true, and one is not:

Sidney Crosby had the most points in the 2008 playoffs.

Sidney Crosby was the league-leader in points in the 2008 playoffs.

Your list is incorrect because it assumes the false statement to be true.
List is fine, regardless of what you want my words "lead in point scoring in a losing cause" to mean. I even put an asterisk beside it and explained, so please stop being pedantic about it.

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03-14-2013, 11:38 PM
  #240
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Teemu Selanne is my favorite hockey player of all-time. As a kid and teenager, I had a backboard-mounted wall-sized posterboard of him, no joke. With that said, this comparison easily goes to Sergei Fedorov, and I'm absolutely flabbergasted to read some of the attempts to demean Fedorov's career and especially his playoff record. Of course, these are using vacuous measurements such as points per game which completely diminish and discount the overall effect Fedorov had defensively and over the whole ice surface. Despite being a bigger fan of Lidstrom than Fedorov, he is, in my mind, the single most important piece of the 97/97/02 championship teams (Lidstrom wins out overall due to being a key player on the 08 team).

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03-14-2013, 11:56 PM
  #241
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Teemu Selanne is my favorite hockey player of all-time. As a kid and teenager, I had a backboard-mounted wall-sized posterboard of him, no joke. With that said, this comparison easily goes to Sergei Fedorov, and I'm absolutely flabbergasted to read some of the attempts to demean Fedorov's career and especially his playoff record. Of course, these are using vacuous measurements such as points per game which completely diminish and discount the overall effect Fedorov had defensively and over the whole ice surface. Despite being a bigger fan of Lidstrom than Fedorov, he is, in my mind, the single most important piece of the 97/97/02 championship teams (Lidstrom wins out overall due to being a key player on the 08 team).
Ah yes, the two classic Fedorov defenses:

1. 'You just don't get it. . .he was really good!'

2. 'Ignore his numbers. . . he played defense!'

1. If we're all so dumb that we can't grasp the brilliance that was Sergei Fedorov. . .why don't you explain it to us? Because there has been a ton of stats and facts laid out in this thread that have all been ignored in favour of responses of, 'you just don't get it. . . he was really good!'.

2. And here comes the circular logic again. I posted the PPG stuff because the constant harping on what an accomplishment his four 20-point playoffs were. . .and as soon as I do that? The debate switches to how good he was defensively. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: either he was this brilliant two-way player or he wasn't. And if he was, then why did playing defense mean his offense dipped to second-line production?

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03-15-2013, 12:25 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
And if he was, then why did playing defense mean his offense dipped to second-line production?


Fedorov from 1996-97 through 1999-00 was 36th in points per game among all players who played 60+ games (15 games per season).

From 1993-94 through 1995-96, he was fourth among all who played 45+. One spot ahead of Gretzky.

From 1990-91 through 1992-93, he was 31st overall (26th among forwards) among those with 45+ games.

For the entire decade, for those with at least 150GP, he was 18th overall and among forwards.

That's generally considered first-line production, is it not?

Not sure where you're getting this "second line" production idea.

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03-15-2013, 12:50 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Teemu Selanne is my favorite hockey player of all-time. As a kid and teenager, I had a backboard-mounted wall-sized posterboard of him, no joke. With that said, this comparison easily goes to Sergei Fedorov
And I have a twelve-inch doll of Sergei Fedorov, but it doesn't make him finish top-eight in points seven times - or even just twice. There's nothing EASY about this comparison; we're comparing an habitual 60-70 point defensive forward with a questionable work ethic on the deepest team in hockey to an offensive star from two bottom-feeders with devastating injuries and an uncommon back-nine resurgence. The only thing they have in common is their popularity. Everything else was different: opportunities, responsibilities, attitude, teammates, coaching, etc.

Yeah, Fedorov's playoffs are going to get called into question. Two people just said he was more valuable in the 1990s than Gretzky and Lemieux. Not everyone gets the chance to collect 11 and 9 points from bottom-ten defensive teams like the 1998 Coyotes and 1995 Sharks. Some players jump into the playoffs with 109 points and see Nicklas Lidstrom looking at them in the first round. When was the last time Fedorov had to deal with #5 trying to shut him down in the playoffs? I don't think those Sandis Ozolinsh matchups took a lot out Fedorov.

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03-15-2013, 01:17 AM
  #244
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If everyone agrees that Fedorov can't hold Gretzky or Lemieux's jock, can we stop trying to denigrate his playoff performances?

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03-15-2013, 01:28 AM
  #245
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Two people just said he was more valuable in the 1990s than Gretzky and Lemieux.
You're not crediting me as one of them, are you?

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03-15-2013, 01:47 AM
  #246
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Hi!

Both great hockey players and strong persons.

Career: Selänne
Peak: Selänne
Season: Selänne

Fedorov was during his career also Duck. The way Ducks who have the experience of having both guys decided awhile ago when Fedorov was let go and Selänne ... ok. Sergei is a nice guy and doing great work with Moscow CSKA as a GM today, but I go with Teemu in all categories. The support cast Feds had in DRW and Flash in the Mighty Ducks is not comparable. Also one was centerman another wing does not help this comparison.
This is the problem with assessing Selanne's career in general: he wasn't even the best forward on the team in those earlier years with the Ducks, Kariya was. In fact, for most of his career, he hasn't been the best forward on his team. It's not even clear he was the best player on those Jets teams, as Tkachuk was a dominant force and undoubtedly deserves to be in the conversation after Teemu's heroic rookie season. He has been consistent, he is incredibly talented, he's a hall of famer for sure. But he's not what some people on here are making him out to be.

As far as who the better player is: I think it's hard to argue that Selanne had a better peak. For about three years, Fedorov was one of the top-three to five or so players in the league. Selanne has never had a stretch like that. But Selanne's career numbers are hard to beat. I also think that Fedorov's best season was on another level when measured against Selanne's rookie year which, as has been pointed out many, many times took place in perhaps the freakiest of freaky seasons in NHL history.


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03-15-2013, 02:09 AM
  #247
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It's not even clear he was the best player on those Jets teams, as Tkachuk undoubtedly deserves to be in the conversation
No. Zhamnov's crazy year in 1995, maybe. But at no point was Tkachuk better than Selanne. Selanne was injured and missed 33 games in 1993-94, so Tkachuk led the Jets in scoring that year. But Selanne was 3 points above PPG, and Tkachuk was 3 points below. Tkachuk was not yet the defensive player he would become; he was as weak if not weaker than Selanne in that area at the time. In 1994-95, Both were 3 points above, but Selanne played fewer games and thus had a better PPG. They both scored 22 goals.

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But Selanne's career numbers are hard to beat. I also think that Fedorov's best season was on another level when measured against Selanne's rookie year which, as has been pointed out many, many times took place in perhaps the freakiest of freaky seasons in NHL history.
In their overlapping period (1992-93 to 2008-09) Selanne outscored Fedorov by 198 points in 41 more games. Fedorov won two Selkes, a Hart, and was named to the first-team. Selanne won the Calder, a Richard, three first-teams, and two second-teams. Selanne was fourth in scoring and Fedorov was ninth. Paul Kariya was 12th and Nicklas Lidstrom was 14th. Selanne was 8th in PPG and Fedorov was 23rd. Paul Kariya was 10th and Steve Yzerman was 15th.

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03-15-2013, 02:29 AM
  #248
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No. Zhamnov's crazy year in 1995, maybe. But at no point was Tkachuk better than Selanne. Selanne was injured and missed 33 games in 1993-94, so Tkachuk led the Jets in scoring that year. But Selanne was 3 points above PPG, and Tkachuk was 3 points below. Tkachuk was not yet the defensive player he would become; he was as weak if not weaker than Selanne in that area at the time. In 1994-95, Both were 3 points above, but Selanne played fewer games and thus had a better PPG. They both scored 22 goals.
And, regardless of his defensive prowess, Tkachuk brought an element that Selanne did not, while putting up very similar numbers. I think if you asked GMs around the league from '93-'96 who they'd rather have, you'd find quite a few taking Tkachuk who brought a very rare combination of goal scoring, size, and toughness. That's not to say there isn't an argument: there is, and many people would probably side with Selanne, as I acknowledged in my post.


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In their overlapping period (1992-93 to 2008-09) Selanne outscored Fedorov by 198 points in 41 more games. Fedorov won two Selkes, a Hart, and was named to the first-team. Selanne won the Calder, a Richard, three first-teams, and two second-teams. Selanne was fourth in scoring and Fedorov was ninth. Paul Kariya was 12th and Nicklas Lidstrom was 14th. Selanne was 8th in PPG and Fedorov was 23rd. Paul Kariya was 10th and Steve Yzerman was 15th.
Not sure what this is supposed to prove, as none of these stats disprove or even work against anything I said in the quoted post. I think Fedorov was clearly the better player in his best three season stretch. Not 16 years. Three. Peak. Even if you disagree, I'm confident this isn't an outlandish statement to make. I think Forsberg had a better peak too. And Lindros. And Neely, when he was at his absolute best. Yet none of them are even close to Selanne in terms of points over any complete time period that their careers overlapped.

I also think Paul Kariya was a better player in his prime. He was a more explosive player, he did more to make the players around him better, and based on years of watching them play together, I think he was more of a headache for other teams to deal with than Selanne due to the fact that he was a better all-around playmaker, plain and simple.

I agreed that Selanne was better over that LONG stretch of time, which is part of why he is now considered to be such a great player. He's a better-goal scoring version of Ron Francis, with one truly exceptional season and a few really great ones played with a really great linemate with whom he had really great chemistry. He's better than Francis, no question in my mind whatsoever. But for the bulk of his career, he's been closer to Francis than Jagr.


Last edited by RewBicks: 03-15-2013 at 02:45 AM.
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03-15-2013, 03:34 AM
  #249
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by RewBicks View Post
This is the problem with assessing Selanne's career in general: he wasn't even the best forward on the team in those earlier years with the Ducks, Kariya was. In fact, for most of his career, he hasn't been the best forward on his team. It's not even clear he was the best player on those Jets teams, as Tkachuk was a dominant force and undoubtedly deserves to be in the conversation after Teemu's heroic rookie season. He has been consistent, he is incredibly talented, he's a hall of famer for sure. But he's not what some people on here are making him out to be.

As far as who the better player is: I think it's hard to argue that Selanne had a better peak. For about three years, Fedorov was one of the top-three to five or so players in the league. Selanne has never had a stretch like that. But Selanne's career numbers are hard to beat. I also think that Fedorov's best season was on another level when measured against Selanne's rookie year which, as has been pointed out many, many times took place in perhaps the freakiest of freaky seasons in NHL history.
Well, Kariya being better than Selanne in their joined years is highly debatable and i would think Selanne has the better case. Helthier, higher production.
For the Jets team, Selanne was the slam dunk best player on that team. No contest.

BTW, in which years Fedorov was the best forward in his team?

For consecutive 5 years Selanne finished top-10 in points every year.

7th
2nd next to Lemieux
8th (2nd in PPG when he decided to stop playing after the Ducks were out of Playoffs)
2nd Next to Jagr
5th

Fedorov has 2 top-10 finishes in '93-'94 and '95-'96 in 2nd and 9th places.


That is not comparable offensive production. Is the gap in overall play enough to bring Fedorov to the top of this comparison? I sure as hell am not sure.

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03-15-2013, 07:21 AM
  #250
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I can't believe this goes on and on for 10 friggin' pages. Even if Selanne was better than Fedorov offensively, there is no way in hell this offensive advantage overcomes the chasm that is the difference in their defensive play.

Offense: Selanne > Fedorov
Defense: Selanne <<<< Fedorov

Regular season: Selanne > Fedorov (except 94 and 96)
Playoffs: Selanne << Fedorov

I do concede that Feds always left me wanting for more. But Bowman's system and his four-line-rotation principle hardly left room for individual accomplishments. In fact, I can argue that starting in 96-97 season Fedorov played on the THIRD line (behind Yzerman and Larionov-Shanahan). Fedorov did what he was asked to do.

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