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How to draft Seth Jones?

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Old
03-14-2013, 05:30 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
They've traded for young 1st round talent dmen. They also have taken a a good amount in the 2nd-3rd. If you're picking in the 1st round there should be an abundance of skill there anyway, not as much development needed.

Bartulis, Rathchuk, Bodrov, Marshall, Bourdon, Bertilsson were all second round picks if I remember correctly.

I'm not saying Jones would suck if he came here, but I'm not opposed to taking a forward, and trading for/signing a dman.



I understand. I wouldn't be upset if they took him, but I don't agree that he'll be the answer as soon as he steps on the ice. That's why I'm not opposed to getting someone else in the draft and going about acquiring a dman another way. I am more leery of defenseman though because they are usually less of a sure thing than forwards.
It's hard as heck to trade for good NHL ready players, and usually expensive. We got lucky with Coburn, paid 2 firsts for Carle and gave up the heigher ceiling player for Schenn.

With the scouting team we have, we are much better off holding onto our picks.

Nobody is expecting jones to fix anything next year, but we badly need top d talent in the system anyway.

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03-14-2013, 05:37 PM
  #77
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People throw the Pronger comparisons around way too much. It was used for EJ, now it's being used for Seth Jones and it's just not accurate. Chris Pronger was so great, in part because he had an unteachable mean streak in his game. He was a dirty mother****er, he knew it, and he didn't care. He was ridiculously physical. Seth Jones isn't and he's not going to be. He even stated as much in an interview... here's the article followed by the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Star
Jones has future Norris Trophy winner written all over him. Those expecting to see Chris Pronger 2.0 or a big, mean hombre on the back end, however, might end up disappointed when they see more of a Nicklas Lidstrom type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Jones
People know I’m not much of a fighter. I can give the big hit or be physical in the corners if that’s what they’re looking for. But I’ve learned to use my stick and use my feet rather than just my body all the time. If I can just poke the puck away and transition to offence quickly, I’d rather do that than just get the big hit.
Link:http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...draft_cox.html

I'm not saying Jones is going to be a bad player, he very well could be a future Norris winner as predicted by the article, but he's not another Pronger. Anybody who says "I can be physical if that's what they're looking for" doesn't have that mean streak to be Pronger or anything resembling Pronger.

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03-14-2013, 05:42 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
People throw the Pronger comparisons around way too much. It was used for EJ, now it's being used for Seth Jones and it's just not accurate. Chris Pronger was so great, in part because he had an unteachable mean streak in his game. He was a dirty mother****er, he knew it, and he didn't care. He was ridiculously physical. Seth Jones isn't and he's not going to be. He even stated as much in an interview... here's the article followed by the quote:





Link:http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...draft_cox.html

I'm not saying Jones is going to be a bad player, he very well could be a future Norris winner as predicted by the article, but he's not another Pronger. Anybody who says "I can be physical if that's what they're looking for" doesn't have that mean streak to be Pronger or anything resembling Pronger.
TSN compares some defensemen to Pronger every year. It has no meaning to it anymore. Gudbranson was compared to him for Christ sakes. Any big physical defensemen they compare to Pronger. It's really lazy.

But I think most people get confused when it comes to Jones and Pronger. I believe Craig Button said he's the best defensive prospect since Chris Pronger and I guess some take that as he's comparing him to Pronger by playing style.

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03-14-2013, 05:51 PM
  #79
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This team is bad but I don't think they'll end up bad enough to get a top 5 pick let alone first (or second) over all. As bad as we are I'd easily say the Oilers, Avalanche, Flames, Panthers, Blue Jackets, and Sabres are worse than us. The Lightening and Capitals are about on our level. Most of the players on the team who are good I don't want to get rid of, and those I would get rid of for the most part aren't helping anyway. The only way maybe is if Bryz get hurt and we got with a Leighton/Boucher tandem the rest of the season. Otherwise I don't see the point in even worrying about this because it will only end in disappointment, and there as already been enough of that this season.

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03-14-2013, 06:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
This team is bad but I don't think they'll end up bad enough to get a top 5 pick let alone first (or second) over all. As bad as we are I'd easily say the Oilers, Avalanche, Flames, Panthers, Blue Jackets, and Sabres are worse than us. The Lightening and Capitals are about on our level. Most of the players on the team who are good I don't want to get rid of, and those I would get rid of for the most part aren't helping anyway. The only way maybe is if Bryz get hurt and we got with a Leighton/Boucher tandem the rest of the season. Otherwise I don't see the point in even worrying about this because it will only end in disappointment, and there as already been enough of that this season.
The games aren't played on paper though. People have been saying "we're not this bad" for weeks now, yet we still continue to play terribly. Some might say even worse. Every year there are talented teams who finish behind less-talented teams. There's no reason to think this year will be any different.

Plus the Oilers, Avalanche, Blue Jackets, and Sabres all have more confident / better goalies than us right now... that helps a lot when it comes to winning games.

The Oilers are also vastly under-performing offensively compared to what they're capable of. If you expect us to break out, they could easily do so too.

The top 5 is absolutely a possibility for us. I actually consider it LIKELY at this point.

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03-14-2013, 06:06 PM
  #81
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Do people not know who Pronger is?

"But Ive learned to use my stick and use my feet rather than just my body all the time. If I can just poke the puck away and transition to offence quickly, Id rather do that than just get the big hit."

That is DIRECTLY out of the Pronger book of playing defense.

Pronger was mean and dirty, but overly physical he was not. Maybe earlier in his career he was a tad more physical but I really don't know who people were watching when they thought they were seeing Pronger laying out big hits... Prongers positioning and stick and his ability to transition very quickly were much bigger assets to him than his physicality ever were.

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03-14-2013, 06:11 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Do people not know who Pronger is?

"But I’ve learned to use my stick and use my feet rather than just my body all the time. If I can just poke the puck away and transition to offence quickly, I’d rather do that than just get the big hit."

That is DIRECTLY out of the Pronger book of playing defense.

Pronger was mean and dirty, but overly physical he was not. Maybe earlier in his career he was a tad more physical but I really don't know who people were watching when they thought they were seeing Pronger laying out big hits... Prongers positioning and stick and his ability to transition very quickly were much bigger assets to him than his physicality ever were.
As an aside, my favorite Pronger play came in the Buffalo series. A Buffalo forward was about to skate into the Flyers zone, when he noticed Pronger. Pronger was positioned to cut off his approach to the net, and also to stop him if he tried to go up the boards. The forward stopped for a second, halting the rush, before dumping it to the opposite corner and hoping a teammate could win the puck battle. He stopped an offensive opportunity just by standing in the right place, and I'm sure his reputation/effective play thus far helped.

Who knows how long it will be before the team has another Dman like that.

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03-14-2013, 06:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
The games aren't played on paper though. People have been saying "we're not this bad" for weeks now, yet we still continue to play terribly. Some might say even worse. Every year there are talented teams who finish behind less-talented teams. There's no reason to think this year will be any different.

Plus the Oilers, Avalanche, Blue Jackets, and Sabres all have more confident / better goalies than us right now... that helps a lot when it comes to winning games.

The Oilers are also vastly under-performing offensively compared to what they're capable of. If you expect us to break out, they could easily do so too.

The top 5 is absolutely a possibility for us. I actually consider it LIKELY at this point.
Don't get me wrong, we're bad and I have long abandoned any hope of making the playoffs. But I've been watching a lot of hockey recently, and we just aren't the worst. The Oilers goal tending is horrible, and worse then ours I'm not sure where you got the idea it was good. The Blue Jackets goal tending is ok when Bob (and we pretty much know he's not a world beater) is in net, but Mason is a train wreck. The Avs and Sabres have better goal tending, but the rest of their team is pretty awful.

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03-14-2013, 06:21 PM
  #84
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In the EDM games I've watched, Dubnyk gets shelled worse than Bryzgalov does and he holds up better. If the Oilers offense picks up they can start winning games.

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03-15-2013, 03:17 AM
  #85
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I guess the good thing for us is that
Washington, Tampa Bay and Florida have to beat each other.
so that could help us move up a spot or two.

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03-15-2013, 08:01 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Do people not know who Pronger is?

"But I’ve learned to use my stick and use my feet rather than just my body all the time. If I can just poke the puck away and transition to offence quickly, I’d rather do that than just get the big hit."

That is DIRECTLY out of the Pronger book of playing defense.

Pronger was mean and dirty, but overly physical he was not. Maybe earlier in his career he was a tad more physical but I really don't know who people were watching when they thought they were seeing Pronger laying out big hits... Prongers positioning and stick and his ability to transition very quickly were much bigger assets to him than his physicality ever were.
Physicality isn't relegated to big hits though. Pronger punished people in front of the net and in the corners. He rarely laid big open ice hits because going for them takes you out of position. He'd wait to go in the corner with someone, and proceed to abuse them lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
It's hard as heck to trade for good NHL ready players, and usually expensive. We got lucky with Coburn, paid 2 firsts for Carle and gave up the heigher ceiling player for Schenn.

With the scouting team we have, we are much better off holding onto our picks.

Nobody is expecting jones to fix anything next year, but we badly need top d talent in the system anyway.
You said the team never uses high picks on Dmen, so you can't say they haven't deveolped anyone. But there's a list of 2nd round picks that never amounted to anything.

People may say they don't expect Jones to fix anything in the short term, but they sure as hell make it seem like they do.


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03-15-2013, 09:22 AM
  #87
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Physicality isn't relegated to big hits though. Pronger punished people in front of the net and in the corners. He rarely laid big open ice hits because going for them takes you out of position. He'd wait to go in the corner with someone, and proceed to abuse them lol.



You said the team never uses high picks on Dmen, so you can't say they haven't deveolped anyone. But there's a list of 2nd round picks that never amounted to anything.

People may say they don't expect Jones to fix anything in the short term, but they sure as hell make it seem like they do.
"Fix" is one of those words that leaves no gray area. It's either fixed or it's not. But how about "improve"? While I wouldn't necessarily expect him to make the team right away, I wouldn't shock me if he did. Heck, I'm not so sure he wouldn't improve certain aspects of the teams play right now, if he was on the team.

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03-15-2013, 09:39 AM
  #88
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"Fix" is one of those words that leaves no gray area. It's either fixed or it's not. But how about "improve"? While I wouldn't necessarily expect him to make the team right away, I wouldn't shock me if he did. Heck, I'm not so sure he wouldn't improve certain aspects of the teams play right now, if he was on the team.
We also have a longer window of opportunity than most teams considering how incredibly young the core of our team is. If Jones were a serious contributor in 3 years, our young Centers, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, Laughton, Cousins, L. Schenn, Grossmann, and Coburn still have many, many years of success from that point on.

Taking a young player like Jones wouldn't directly help the core of many, many teams because of their age, but in Philadelphia.... he would be well-timed to contribute to this group of players.

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03-15-2013, 10:00 AM
  #89
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We also have a longer window of opportunity than most teams considering how incredibly young the core of our team is. If Jones were a serious contributor in 3 years, our young Centers, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, Laughton, Cousins, L. Schenn, Grossmann, and Coburn still have many, many years of success from that point on.

Taking a young player like Jones wouldn't directly help the core of many, many teams because of their age, but in Philadelphia.... he would be well-timed to contribute to this group of players.
Agreed. It would be hard to find a situation where a player fits a team's needs more than Jones would for the Flyers.

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03-15-2013, 10:30 AM
  #90
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Tonight if we lose and Calgary at least grabs one point we are in the bottom 5. The Flyers have been so disappointing it's starting to be depressing looking at where we are in the standings. April 29th is the date of the Draft Lottery also.

Florida's fan base seems to be set on drafting another forward it seems. If we want any shot at Jones/Drouin we need to get top 3 then. It very well is starting to look like this could be happening. Homer and management will hopefully notice after tonight's game where this team stands, which is no chance at the playoffs. My two scenerios I would like to happen

1) Get high enough and have the oppurtunity to draft Seth Jones. Would improve our teams defense immediately when he enters the NHL

2)Draft Drouin and make one of our young centers available in a trade for a BIG time defender(No Buff, Bouw, or any of those types). I am talking Weber, Piety, OEL(still developing). Honestly if Nashville doesn't make the playoffs and doesn't hold a grudge against us I would call them regarding Weber again. Couts+Coburn+1st for Weber. It would be amazing to finally have him on this team. I know it's a pipe dream, but we really have no idea what executives are talking about right now and anything can happen.

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03-15-2013, 10:36 AM
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Tonight if we lose and Calgary at least grabs one point we are in the bottom 5. The Flyers have been so disappointing it's starting to be depressing looking at where we are in the standings. April 29th is the date of the Draft Lottery also.

Florida's fan base seems to be set on drafting another forward it seems. If we want any shot at Jones/Drouin we need to get top 3 then. It very well is starting to look like this could be happening. Homer and management will hopefully notice after tonight's game where this team stands, which is no chance at the playoffs. My two scenerios I would like to happen

1) Get high enough and have the oppurtunity to draft Seth Jones. Would improve our teams defense immediately when he enters the NHL

2)Draft Drouin and make one of our young centers available in a trade for a BIG time defender(No Buff, Bouw, or any of those types). I am talking Weber, Piety, OEL(still developing). Honestly if Nashville doesn't make the playoffs and doesn't hold a grudge against us I would call them regarding Weber again. Couts+Coburn+1st for Weber. It would be amazing to finally have him on this team. I know it's a pipe dream, but we really have no idea what executives are talking about right now and anything can happen.
Honestly, I would be shocked if a Weber or OEL will be available in trade. And remember, Weber cannot be traded until one calendar year after the date he signed with Nashville. That would be July 19.

Personally, if the Flyers can't get Jones I would look at drafting one of the other defensemen if they're available. Maybe even trade down and get another pick in the deal.

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03-15-2013, 10:38 AM
  #92
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There are some people on this board that make some of the most embarrassing trade proposals. Gagne + Timonen for Lindholm???? Laughton for Dumba? Wth
It is less crazy than you think. 3 of Anahiem's top 5 players may be gone next year: Koivu, Selanne and Perry. The team has a good chance of winning the cup this year. There is not better available defenseman than Timmonen. Gagne is still a very good player. Anahiem may be willing to sacrifice a good prospect for getting a very good forward and defensman to try to take a run at winning the cup.

Laughton's stock has clearly risen. Dumba' stock has fallen. Minnesota may be interested in swapping Dumba for Laughton. Laughton is also the type of hard noised player Minnesota really likes.

Again, not saying these trades are likely. Just that there not insanely unimaginable.

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03-15-2013, 10:39 AM
  #93
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Honestly, I would be shocked if a Weber or OEL will be available in trade. And remember, Weber cannot be traded until one calendar year after the date he signed with Nashville. That would be July 19.

Personally, if the Flyers can't get Jones I would look at drafting one of the other defensemen if they're available. Maybe even trade down and get another pick in the deal.
I think we have to take Drouin/Mac if they are available. If we move down say 2 or 3 spots we only collect a 2nd probably a 3rd. I think Drouin will be one of the elite players of this draft class(just my opinion). If he is sitting there and we have the chance to get him, we have to.

Also I understand we have to wait till the 19th of July for Weber, which would actually make it better for us trying to deal for him. The first rounder would be 2014 instead of this years which will be top 10.

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03-15-2013, 10:46 AM
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IMO, you just have to let it play out and see what happens. I would trade Briere for whatever you can get, amnesty Bryz in the summer, and then start over with your young core.

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03-15-2013, 10:47 AM
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If it was just that easy perhaps you should be applying for a GM job.

Why is minn gonna do that, why is wsh gonna do that, ANH won't trade lindholm....come on!
Again, not saying these trades are likely. But Washington already has Green and Carlson and Alzner. There are relatively strong on defense but are sorely lacking on offense. They might considering dealing some of their defensive depth, in Orlov, for a forward prospect(s) they really like.

Anaheim might trade Lindholm. As I just stated in a previous post, Anahiem is a cup-contender this year but will not be next year. Next year they may lose as many as 3 of their top 5 players: Koivu, Selanne, and Perry. They might be willing to sacrifice a top prospect, such as Lindholm, to get one of the best defensman available on the trade market and a still very good two winger in Gagne.

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03-15-2013, 10:53 AM
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If we're top 5, we need to do whatever we can to get Jones. I'm entirely on board with this. Give up Laughton if we need to.

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03-15-2013, 10:57 AM
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If we're top 5, we need to do whatever we can to get Jones. I'm entirely on board with this. Give up Laughton if we need to.
That seems like a lot. Don't teams usually just trade picks when moving up a couple spots? I could be wrong.

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03-15-2013, 11:01 AM
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That seems like a lot. Don't teams usually just trade picks when moving up a couple spots? I could be wrong.
A "couple of spots" at the top of the 1st round is considerably different from a bit of shuffling later in the round or in the 2nd, I think.

IIRC, the Penguins sent M. Samuellsson + a 2nd + 3rd overall to FLA for the 1st overall (+ some lesser picks) in 2003.

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03-15-2013, 11:06 AM
  #99
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I think we have to take Drouin/Mac if they are available. If we move down say 2 or 3 spots we only collect a 2nd probably a 3rd. I think Drouin will be one of the elite players of this draft class(just my opinion). If he is sitting there and we have the chance to get him, we have to.

Also I understand we have to wait till the 19th of July for Weber, which would actually make it better for us trying to deal for him. The first rounder would be 2014 instead of this years which will be top 10.
I agree regarding Drouin, he's a magician. I think both he and MacK will be elite players. And it may be that I'm over-reacting because this franchise seems to have some kind of allergy to drafting and developing defensemen, but I just am not anxious to see them draft another forward, especially a center (which I think is where Drouin is best suited to play). If they can't get Jones I would be very excited to see them get Nurse or one of the other highly ranked D-men. It would make me sleep better, at least over the summer.

Trying to trade for Weber at that point would be risky. They would have to clear cap space in advance, and then what if you don't get him? This is basically the same way Homer screwed up last summer, miss out and you probably won't have any other good options. I want to see this team stop going for the quick (and expensive) fixes and try a little patience for a change.

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03-15-2013, 11:16 AM
  #100
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Tonight if we lose and Calgary at least grabs one point we are in the bottom 5. The Flyers have been so disappointing it's starting to be depressing looking at where we are in the standings. April 29th is the date of the Draft Lottery also.

Florida's fan base seems to be set on drafting another forward it seems. If we want any shot at Jones/Drouin we need to get top 3 then. It very well is starting to look like this could be happening. Homer and management will hopefully notice after tonight's game where this team stands, which is no chance at the playoffs. My two scenerios I would like to happen

1) Get high enough and have the oppurtunity to draft Seth Jones. Would improve our teams defense immediately when he enters the NHL

2)Draft Drouin and make one of our young centers available in a trade for a BIG time defender(No Buff, Bouw, or any of those types). I am talking Weber, Piety, OEL(still developing). Honestly if Nashville doesn't make the playoffs and doesn't hold a grudge against us I would call them regarding Weber again. Couts+Coburn+1st for Weber. It would be amazing to finally have him on this team. I know it's a pipe dream, but we really have no idea what executives are talking about right now and anything can happen.
Agree on all points

Not sure about trading Couts, but i'd be willing to let coburn go, as well as briere, read, etc

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