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Swiss NLA overtakes Sweden in attendance

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Old
03-15-2013, 08:00 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by stv11 View Post
Why the focus on size? Modern arenas tend to be smaller since the focus is on seats and VIP facilities, while in the past most of the crowd was standing. It's about income, not attendance.

You have to remember that a lot of teams play in small towns where it doesn't make sense to have 10000+ arenas.
Even Helsinki teams can't fill their arenas to capacity in every game, the likes of SaiPa, Lukko, Ässät, Kalpa or never fill Hartwall Areena (unless there's really cheap ticket campaign for those games). HIFK could get their new 10500 arena (the actual capacity for hockey games) sell out the first season but once the sense of seeing something new and the team (potentially) sucking, the attendance will drop below 10K just like it was with Hartwall Areena.

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03-15-2013, 08:53 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
NLA, KHL have increased every season, Elitserien not. I just want to know if there is potential for grow in euro leagues. I am sure KHL has potential for growing. Not sure about other leagues. Number of fans at arenas is not the main factor of league´s popularity, but says a lot.
Looking at things from a distance it's obvious this season wasn't a banner year for the 'SEL' but last year it set an attendance record so it isn't like the league has been in some sort of decline in recent years. It appears the vast majority of this years decline can be explained by two things.

-Djurgarden going down and Rogle coming up. Really the relagation of Djurgarden pretty much accounts for AIK's drop in attendance as well.
-An extended run of mediocrity finally catching up to Frolunda at the gate.

In a weird way I think the apparent depth currently in Swedish professional hockey hurts the SEL from a econmic point of view. Half the clubs in the 2nd tier now probably have a legit and realistic goal of making it to the SEL. This is making things crowded at the top and pretty difficult for 'big market' and/or prestigious clubs like Djurgarden, Malmo and Leksands to make it back up. Given the depth I wonder if it is time to increase the amount of teams to at least 14?

One interesting thing is the combined attendance of the top 2 tiers this year is pretty much the same as least year.

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03-15-2013, 09:32 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Looking at things from a distance it's obvious this season wasn't a banner year for the 'SEL' but last year it set an attendance record so it isn't like the league has been in some sort of decline in recent years. It appears the vast majority of this years decline can be explained by two things.

-Djurgarden going down and Rogle coming up. Really the relagation of Djurgarden pretty much accounts for AIK's drop in attendance as well.
-An extended run of mediocrity finally catching up to Frolunda at the gate.

In a weird way I think the apparent depth currently in Swedish professional hockey hurts the SEL from a econmic point of view. Half the clubs in the 2nd tier now probably have a legit and realistic goal of making it to the SEL. This is making things crowded at the top and pretty difficult for 'big market' and/or prestigious clubs like Djurgarden, Malmo and Leksands to make it back up. Given the depth I wonder if it is time to increase the amount of teams to at least 14?

One interesting thing is the combined attendance of the top 2 tiers this year is pretty much the same as least year.
I know about Djurgarden thing. It can explain this season´s numbers.

I dont know how to make table, so I am writing average attendance since 08/09 until now (if anybody has reliable source of average leagues attendance before 08/09 I will welcome it)

NLA
2008/09 - 2012/13
6 073
6 181
6 306
6 305
6 620


Elitserien
2008/09 - 2012/13

6 260
6 190
6 160
6 385
5 717

As you can see, NLA has grown every season. Elitserien has decreased every season, only exception is last year. Can it be explained by "Djurgarden type of case" in 09/10, 10/11 as well?

Is there any potential for grow in NLA, SEL with current arenas? If not, will clubs build new? KHL forces clubs to build new arenas (minimum of 9000 or 12000), therefore many clubs project new arenas. I dont agree with KHL here, IMO minimal capacity should be 12000 or 15000. If a club can not afford it (small city, fanbase), it can play lower leagues.

I ask because of vision euro competition in future - Champions League or one league, it does not matter. Where do euro clubs want to play it? At current arenas for 5-7000? I see euro clubs, they dont have any plan for future (no Champions League or so), so no reason to build new arenas. Current one are enough. KHL is another story, there is a vision of big league.. therefore they will build new arenas. Torpedo Nizny Novgorod should start to build new arena for 15000 this year, even Tyumen which is not in KHL - but wants to join - has been building arena for 13000 etc.

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03-15-2013, 09:46 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Looking at things from a distance it's obvious this season wasn't a banner year for the 'SEL' but last year it set an attendance record so it isn't like the league has been in some sort of decline in recent years. It appears the vast majority of this years decline can be explained by two things.

-Djurgarden going down and Rogle coming up. Really the relagation of Djurgarden pretty much accounts for AIK's drop in attendance as well.
-An extended run of mediocrity finally catching up to Frolunda at the gate.

In a weird way I think the apparent depth currently in Swedish professional hockey hurts the SEL from a econmic point of view. Half the clubs in the 2nd tier now probably have a legit and realistic goal of making it to the SEL. This is making things crowded at the top and pretty difficult for 'big market' and/or prestigious clubs like Djurgarden, Malmo and Leksands to make it back up. Given the depth I wonder if it is time to increase the amount of teams to at least 14?

One interesting thing is the combined attendance of the top 2 tiers this year is pretty much the same as least year.
There is already talk about 14-16 teams, thanks to the depth and the new tvdeal. The question is who gets promoted? cuz they cant simply chose someone to advance and clubs will have to have a good while to prepare for a bigger kvalserie. If ishockey förbundet just picks some clubs the sport will lose all it's honor and the general hockey interest will likely diminish.

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03-15-2013, 10:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Looking at things from a distance it's obvious this season wasn't a banner year for the 'SEL' but last year it set an attendance record so it isn't like the league has been in some sort of decline in recent years. It appears the vast majority of this years decline can be explained by two things.

-Djurgarden going down and Rogle coming up. Really the relagation of Djurgarden pretty much accounts for AIK's drop in attendance as well.
-An extended run of mediocrity finally catching up to Frolunda at the gate.

In a weird way I think the apparent depth currently in Swedish professional hockey hurts the SEL from a econmic point of view. Half the clubs in the 2nd tier now probably have a legit and realistic goal of making it to the SEL. This is making things crowded at the top and pretty difficult for 'big market' and/or prestigious clubs like Djurgarden, Malmo and Leksands to make it back up. Given the depth I wonder if it is time to increase the amount of teams to at least 14?

One interesting thing is the combined attendance of the top 2 tiers this year is pretty much the same as least year.
I'm surprised they haven't done it already. Finnish league's been 14 teams for a number of years even though there's barely depth for 12 competitive teams.

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03-15-2013, 10:41 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
NLA
2008/09 - 2012/13
6 073
6 181
6 306
6 305
6 620


Elitserien
2008/09 - 2012/13

6 260
6 190
6 160
6 385
5 717

As you can see, NLA has grown every season. Elitserien has decreased every season, only exception is last year. Can it be explained by "Djurgarden type of case" in 09/10, 10/11 as well?

Is there any potential for grow in NLA, SEL with current arenas? If not, will clubs build new? KHL forces clubs to build new arenas (minimum of 9000 or 12000), therefore many clubs project new arenas. I dont agree with KHL here, IMO minimal capacity should be 12000 or 15000. If a club can not afford it (small city, fanbase), it can play lower leagues.
Well technically based on your numbers the NLA did experience a decrease from the 10-11 to 11-12 seasons.

From 08-09 to 10-11 Eliteserien had a 1.5% (rough math) drop over those three seasons. To be honest given how ‘fluid’ the Eliteserien seems to be I am surprised the attendance numbers are as steady as they are.

I don’t think, other than the odd exception, there is going to be a need for 10-15 thousand seat arenas in either Switzerland or Sweden. I think most of the 'major' clubs in both countries have either built new, or done major renovations on existing arenas within the past decade. I think if the clubs thought there was a need for such large arenas we would have seen more of them built during the recent/current arena boom.

I don’t think you can compare KHL cubs, often playing in cities with a million+ people, with clubs from the other major European leagues. If the KHL feels that 15 thousand seat arenas are necessary and they think they can fill them than that is awesome but I don’t think it is the way to go for clubs/places like Zlin, Pori or Lulea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
There is already talk about 14-16 teams, thanks to the depth and the new tvdeal. The question is who gets promoted? cuz they cant simply chose someone to advance and clubs will have to have a good while to prepare for a bigger kvalserie. If ishockey förbundet just picks some clubs the sport will lose all it's honor and the general hockey interest will likely diminish.
I would hope/think that if they did expand the number of teams they wouldn't close the league. I believe as it works now the top 2 teams from the qualifying round are promoted/remain in the SEL correct? Really all what they would have to do the year before expanding is to promote/keep the top 4 teams from the qualifying round.

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03-15-2013, 11:23 AM
  #57
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I hope Germany is able to establish more rinks and get better leadership for hockey. With such massive population and wealth, Germany has the potential to be a major hockey power. And the attendance figures for teams like Berlin is awesome.

Is Germany improving? Do you see it heading in the right direction? Or is it kind of stagnating? Would a German star player in the NHL make a difference?
I don't think the rink situation is going to improve anytime soon. Many cities and villages are in debt and can barely, if at all, afford to keep the rinks open that are already there, let alone build new ones or renovate the old ones.

It seemed like we were improving, but with the recent setbacks (terrible performance at the 2012 World Championships and subsequently missing the 2014 Olympics) it is hard to tell which was the aberration the improvement before or these setbacks.

I do believe things in Junior hockey have improved ever so slightly.

I don't really think that a star player in the NHL would make a big difference.
In Basketball we have Dirk Nowitzki, and our Basketball Association has done very little to use his success for the promotion of the game in Germany.
I don't know who is more incompetent the people running German Hockey or the ones running German Basketball but it is a close call. So even if we had a real star in the NHL it wouldn't do much good.
Especially since the NHL is not that popular her to begin with. It would be a bigger deal if a German player or team would play an amazing Olympic tournament (in 2018 maybe), because that is what everyone would watch. And even a standout performance at a World Championship might have a bigger impact than a star player in a league nobody is watching over here (except a few lunatics who need no sleep).

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03-15-2013, 11:48 AM
  #58
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Is there any potential for grow in NLA, SEL with current arenas? If not, will clubs build new? KHL forces clubs to build new arenas (minimum of 9000 or 12000), therefore many clubs project new arenas. I dont agree with KHL here, IMO minimal capacity should be 12000 or 15000. If a club can not afford it (small city, fanbase), it can play lower leagues.
The SEL capacity minimum is 4k. Short answer is no. The arena boom is somewhat over in Sweden, clubs(actually, the municipalities) have built like crazy the last 10-12 years. I'd estimate there won't be a wave like this for another 25+ years.

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03-15-2013, 12:27 PM
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Well technically based on your numbers the NLA did experience a decrease from the 10-11 to 11-12 seasons.
yes, but it is only 1 person, not a different for me. Status quo is better.

Quote:
From 08-09 to 10-11 Eliteserien had a 1.5% (rough math) drop over those three seasons. To be honest given how ‘fluid’ the Eliteserien seems to be I am surprised the attendance numbers are as steady as they are.

I don’t think, other than the odd exception, there is going to be a need for 10-15 thousand seat arenas in either Switzerland or Sweden. I think most of the 'major' clubs in both countries have either built new, or done major renovations on existing arenas within the past decade. I think if the clubs thought there was a need for such large arenas we would have seen more of them built during the recent/current arena boom.

I don’t think you can compare KHL cubs, often playing in cities with a million+ people, with clubs from the other major European leagues. If the KHL feels that 15 thousand seat arenas are necessary and they think they can fill them than that is awesome but I don’t think it is the way to go for clubs/places like Zlin, Pori or Lulea.
therefore I compared NLA a SEL.

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03-15-2013, 03:57 PM
  #60
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I'm surprised they haven't done it already. Finnish league's been 14 teams for a number of years even though there's barely depth for 12 competitive teams.
The SEL teams have historically been a bunch of greedy misers, why let anyone else in when they can keep all the money for themselves?

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03-15-2013, 05:14 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Looking at things from a distance it's obvious this season wasn't a banner year for the 'SEL' but last year it set an attendance record so it isn't like the league has been in some sort of decline in recent years. It appears the vast majority of this years decline can be explained by two things.

-Djurgarden going down and Rogle coming up. Really the relagation of Djurgarden pretty much accounts for AIK's drop in attendance as well.
-An extended run of mediocrity finally catching up to Frolunda at the gate.

In a weird way I think the apparent depth currently in Swedish professional hockey hurts the SEL from a econmic point of view. Half the clubs in the 2nd tier now probably have a legit and realistic goal of making it to the SEL. This is making things crowded at the top and pretty difficult for 'big market' and/or prestigious clubs like Djurgarden, Malmo and Leksands to make it back up. Given the depth I wonder if it is time to increase the amount of teams to at least 14?

One interesting thing is the combined attendance of the top 2 tiers this year is pretty much the same as least year.
Having a strong second tier is beneficial. Greater competition from below is always a good thing. Closing the league and creating a monopoly in European hockey can potentially kill off certain teams/regions if you aren't clever.

If there are numerous teams competing for promotion, and whom won't be out of place in the SEL, that is a tremendous thing.

I should preface this by saying i extremely limited knowledge of Finnish clubs and their domestic hockey structure, but i would be curious on peoples opinion of how a closed league impacted on domestic hockey?

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03-16-2013, 12:10 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Having a strong second tier is beneficial. Greater competition from below is always a good thing. Closing the league and creating a monopoly in European hockey can potentially kill off certain teams/regions if you aren't clever.

If there are numerous teams competing for promotion, and whom won't be out of place in the SEL, that is a tremendous thing.

I should preface this by saying i extremely limited knowledge of Finnish clubs and their domestic hockey structure, but i would be curious on peoples opinion of how a closed league impacted on domestic hockey?
Well, to some extent one could say it prevented clubs from going bankrupt but on the other hand, it limited potential growth in the second tier league. Sad truth is that if an SM-Liiga team would get relegated these days, it would mean almost automatic bankruptcy and in case the club was from a smaller town/economic area, a death sentence. The economic situation in Finland is vastly different to Sweden, especially when it come to sponsoring local sports teams. If some company spends big money on sponsorship while laying off workers at the same time(this doesn't even need to happen), the public outrage would be huge. Team sports culture is still very close minded or in baby shoes in Finland.

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03-16-2013, 02:25 AM
  #63
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Having a strong second tier is beneficial. Greater competition from below is always a good thing. Closing the league and creating a monopoly in European hockey can potentially kill off certain teams/regions if you aren't clever.
Just to be clear I am not suggesting closing the top league. I am just wondering if now is the time to increase the amount of teams that play in it.

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03-16-2013, 10:45 AM
  #64
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Just to be clear I am not suggesting closing the top league. I am just wondering if now is the time to increase the amount of teams that play in it.
Even if from an economic point of view it would make sense for Sweden to increase the chance of having Malmö, Djurgården and the likes in the top league, I think they have it right with the current system.

Having a strong second tier is good for the overall popularity of hockey in the country, as most people live close from a high level team. It's also a good thing for player development, many young players found ice time in the Allsvenskan.

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03-17-2013, 12:30 PM
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thx, any more projects of new arenas in SM-Liiga and Elitserien?
Ässät from Pori and Kärpät from Oulu are planning to build new arenas. Kärpät board member announced that they need a new arena for a possible matches in the new European League (in Finnish: http://http://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/...ilasta/612125/). Maybe KHL? I hope not, we're not subpar even in the Finnish league atm.

Also Ässät announced a plan for the new arena recently.


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03-17-2013, 01:36 PM
  #66
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Ässät from Pori and Kärpät from Oulu are planning to build new arenas. Kärpät board member announced that they need a new arena for a possible matches in the new European League (in Finnish: http://http://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/...ilasta/612125/). Maybe KHL? I hope not, we're subpar even in the Finnish league atm.

Also Ässät announced a plan for the new arena recently.
Not new arena but renovation and upgrading of current arena to modern standards: http://yle.fi/uutiset/assat_aloittaa...ellaan/6414613

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03-17-2013, 06:49 PM
  #67
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Not new arena but renovation and upgrading of current arena to modern standards: http://yle.fi/uutiset/assat_aloittaa...ellaan/6414613
Oh I see. That's better than nothing though?

Raksila and Isomäki are both straight from the Soviet era anyways.

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03-17-2013, 06:51 PM
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I don't think the rink situation is going to improve anytime soon. Many cities and villages are in debt and can barely, if at all, afford to keep the rinks open that are already there, let alone build new ones or renovate the old ones.

It seemed like we were improving, but with the recent setbacks (terrible performance at the 2012 World Championships and subsequently missing the 2014 Olympics) it is hard to tell which was the aberration the improvement before or these setbacks.

I do believe things in Junior hockey have improved ever so slightly.

I don't really think that a star player in the NHL would make a big difference.
In Basketball we have Dirk Nowitzki, and our Basketball Association has done very little to use his success for the promotion of the game in Germany.
I don't know who is more incompetent the people running German Hockey or the ones running German Basketball but it is a close call. So even if we had a real star in the NHL it wouldn't do much good.
Especially since the NHL is not that popular her to begin with. It would be a bigger deal if a German player or team would play an amazing Olympic tournament (in 2018 maybe), because that is what everyone would watch. And even a standout performance at a World Championship might have a bigger impact than a star player in a league nobody is watching over here (except a few lunatics who need no sleep).
Hasn't Dirk made an impact on the popularity of Basketball here? I was under that impression. The difference of course is that Dirk put us on the map in international competition (the 2005 EURO silver medal was 80% due to him), and of course it's in the nature of the sport that one single player can't make as much of an impact in hockey.

It's difficult to get into hockey in Germany because you just don't get in touch with it. Every three year old german has kicked a ball and if they like it, they stay. You just can't try out hockey like you can with soccer, or even handball and basketball. You can play street hockey but that doesn't lead many to ice hockey.

In general it's difficult to get any attention here due to the domination of soccer. I spoke to Horst Bredemeyer in the summer who is influental in german handball, and he said that Handball's TV ratings weren't at all encouraging, but still light years ahead of basketball and hockey. And I am pretty sure in large part that's because Handball had its golden years when german soccer had its worst slump, in the late 90s and early 00s. They managed to establish themselves when many were tired of soccer. It needs special occurrences like that to have some spotlght.

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03-17-2013, 06:56 PM
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Hasn't Dirk made an impact on the popularity of Basketball here? I was under that impression. The difference of course is that Dirk put us on the map in international competition (the 2005 EURO silver medal was 80% due to him), and of course it's in the nature of the sport that one single player can't make as much of an impact in hockey.

It's difficult to get into hockey in Germany because you just don't get in touch with it. Every three year old german has kicked a ball and if they like it, they stay. You just can't try out hockey like you can with soccer, or even handball and basketball. You can play street hockey but that doesn't lead many to ice hockey.

In general it's difficult to get any attention here due to the domination of soccer. I spoke to Horst Bredemeyer in the summer who is influental in german handball, and he said that Handball's TV ratings weren't at all encouraging, but still light years ahead of basketball and hockey. And I am pretty sure in large part that's because Handball had its golden years when german soccer had its worst slump, in the late 90s and early 00s. They managed to establish themselves when many were tired of soccer. It needs special occurrences like that to have some spotlght.

Swap hockey with soccer and you have Finland. Different worlds...

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03-18-2013, 08:20 AM
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Swap hockey with soccer and you have Finland. Different worlds...
Well soccer is still the most popular sport in Finland in terms of people playing it (as it is pretty much everywhere in the world). The difference between hockey and soccer in Finland is that we have some success in hockey, thus making it popular. And if everyone who watches soccer in some form would watch Finnish Veikkausliiga, it would be almost as popular as SM-Liiga.

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03-18-2013, 09:42 AM
  #71
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Well soccer is still the most popular sport in Finland in terms of people playing it (as it is pretty much everywhere in the world). The difference between hockey and soccer in Finland is that we have some success in hockey, thus making it popular. And if everyone who watches soccer in some form would watch Finnish Veikkausliiga, it would be almost as popular as SM-Liiga.
The size of the football "stadiums" in Finland and the inability to watch it on tv make that a bit impossible.

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03-18-2013, 10:33 AM
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The size of the football "stadiums" in Finland and the inability to watch it on tv make that a bit impossible.
The size of those football "stadiums" is around the same in most places as the arenas teams in SM-Liiga play, but that doesn't make the conditions the same. I think most people would still pick hockey if they were asked to either watch a game at Isomäki (the worst arena in the league) or at some football stadium if the weather is bad.

And the past few seasons Veikkausliiga games have been broadcasted by Urho, so if you watch SM-Liiga, you can watch Veikkausliiga as well (not anymore next season ofcourse). Also, in the end of last season and in this season as well, Kutonen will broadcast a few games so you can even watch them free. Ofcourse, since not everyone even knows such a channel exists, it kinda goes to waste.

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09-27-2013, 08:07 PM
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I lived in Sweden for a couple of years, and let me comment about hockey attendance there.

The most important factor is that, apart from Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmo, all the teams are from small towns. So the potential for attendance is many of these cities are small. For example, MODO is in Ornskoldsvik, a municipality of 50,000 people. The arena seats 7,000, so there's one seat for ever seven people in the city. And there's not much nearby in that part of the north. But northern teams like MODO, Lulea and Skelleftea pull 4-5,000 people every game.

I don't understand why the games in Stockholm (AIK and Djurgardens aren't better attended; AIK hasn't drawn well even in the Elitserien, Djurgarden usually had close to a sell-out with they were in Elitserien.

It matters a lot what day of the week games are; early week games aren't nearly as well as attended as on the weekend.

Another interesting financial fact about Swedish clubs (and they are clubs, formally): Swedish clubs cannot carry a financial loss from one season to the next. So if they lose money one year they have to make it up the second, or cut costs the season after that.

There have been a wave of new areas built the last 10-15 years. Arenas are built by the municipal government. They regard them as a civic benefit, so they are willing to spend to build. The new arena in Vaxjo is a good example. It was built even when Vaxjo Lakers were in the Allsvenskan. Orebro also built without an Elitserien club, but last year both were promoted. At other times, big shows and theaters are booked into these theaters, but even if they sell-out, they usually only break even. So the city government are admitting that arenas are good for the city, unlike in the USA where builders claim that they will make money for the city (which they don't, as many studies have shown).

I can't think of many towns where they can build a new arena. Rogle could use one. Leksands has a magnificant arena for 6,000, but the hockey team there has such tradition and big support, even when they were in second-division Allsvenskan. They draw from throughout the province of Dalarna.

Swedish hockey probably gets a good amount of TV money, but I don't know how much. All I know that the monthly subscription for the channels that carry both first and second divisions are pretty expensive, around $40/month.

Tickets are pretty reasonably for what you get, in most cities around $20-$30. In Stockholm it's more.

One mention about players' salaries. I'd be surprised if there are many Swedish players that make more than the NHL minimum. So the incentive is there, and lots of young players go.

And one comment about the KHL and Europe. KHL interests are not doing this for the money. All these clubs have sponsors that write multi-million ruble checks to support the clubs. It's guys with more money than they know what to do with, and want to buy prestige. I don't think they'd ever be accepted in Sweden.

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10-04-2013, 05:04 PM
  #74
HabsFan1909
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vCash:
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfrilla View Post
The longside in Berns Arena is standing sections? Crazy.

O_O geez

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