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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:53 AM
  #251
Yamaguchi
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I can't believe this goes on and on for 10 friggin' pages. Even if Selanne was better than Fedorov offensively, there is no way in hell this offensive advantage overcomes the chasm that is the difference in their defensive play.

Offense: Selanne > Fedorov
Defense: Selanne <<<< Fedorov

Regular season: Selanne > Fedorov (except 94 and 96)
Playoffs: Selanne << Fedorov

I do concede that Feds always left me wanting for more. But Bowman's system and his four-line-rotation principle hardly left room for individual accomplishments. In fact, I can argue that starting in 96-97 season Fedorov played on the THIRD line (behind Yzerman and Larionov-Shanahan). Fedorov did what he was asked to do.


I always prefer players who are able to raise their game when it matters the most (in the playoffs) and win it.


Who cares if you score 100 goals in a regular season but can't help your team win against a bunch of guys with not particularly impressive individual stats.

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03-15-2013, 08:15 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I always prefer players who are able to raise their game when it matters the most (in the playoffs) and win it.


Who cares if you score 100 goals in a regular season but can't help your team win against a bunch of guys with not particularly impressive individual stats.
Not that I don't agree with you here, but it can be so difficult to compare the playoff perfomances of some players when clearly they did not have the equal chances to proof themselfs in the playoffs. One is playing for one of the best teams of the decade filled with HHOF-players, and one is playing for a Disney company with limited chances to even reach the playoffs. When did the Red Wings miss playoffs last time? Oh, that's right..

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03-15-2013, 08:17 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And I have a twelve-inch doll of Sergei Fedorov, but it doesn't make him finish top-eight in points seven times - or even just twice. There's nothing EASY about this comparison; we're comparing an habitual 60-70 point defensive forward with a questionable work ethic on the deepest team in hockey to an offensive star from two bottom-feeders with devastating injuries and an uncommon back-nine resurgence. The only thing they have in common is their popularity. Everything else was different: opportunities, responsibilities, attitude, teammates, coaching, etc.
Yes and Stevie Y was a habitual PPG player, if we take out the beginning of his career as well.

While we are at it, a habitual 60-70 top defensive type center is really extremely good for the "clutch and grab era."

I'll take his performance in the 90's over an over rated bobby clarke in the 70's 8 days a week and Clarke was my favorite player as a kid but no paraphernalia sadly.

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Yeah, Fedorov's playoffs are going to get called into question. Two people just said he was more valuable in the 1990s than Gretzky and Lemieux. Not everyone gets the chance to collect 11 and 9 points from bottom-ten defensive teams like the 1998 Coyotes and 1995 Sharks. Some players jump into the playoffs with 109 points and see Nicklas Lidstrom looking at them in the first round. When was the last time Fedorov had to deal with #5 trying to shut him down in the playoffs? I don't think those Sandis Ozolinsh matchups took a lot out Fedorov.
Look, when you bring up on how Wayne beat up on LA, Winnipeg and Vancouver in the early 80's then we can compare on which player scored less meaning full points, which is what you are implying here.

Wayne never had to deal with the Moose either but who cares.

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03-15-2013, 09:42 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If everyone agrees that Fedorov can't hold Gretzky or Lemieux's jock, can we stop trying to denigrate his playoff performances?
Well, you'd also have to concede that it's not a difference in performance but instead a difference in opportunity when one skater records 120 games (favorite in 17 of 22 series) in his 20s while the other records 21 games (favorite in 1 of 4 series) in his 20s. 38% of Selanne's games were against Detroit, by the way.


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Originally Posted by RewBicks View Post
For about three years, Fedorov was one of the top-three to five or so players in the league. Selanne has never had a stretch like that.
Missed 1996-97, 1997-98, and 1998-99, eh?


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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
For consecutive 5 years Selanne finished top-10 in points every year.

7th
2nd next to Lemieux
8th (2nd in PPG when he decided to stop playing after the Ducks were out of Playoffs)
2nd Next to Jagr
5th
Correction: He was second in points when he sat out with his injuries. First in points at the time of the first injury (68 in 56 prior; 18 in 17 after), hence the Hart/Pearson nominations despite the 8th-place finish.

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03-15-2013, 11:39 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by RewBicks View Post
It's not even clear he was the best player on those Jets teams, as Tkachuk was a dominant force and undoubtedly deserves to be in the conversation after Teemu's heroic rookie season.
This is not the Tkachuk thread, but Tkachuk as a Jet 0.93 PPG, Zhamnov as a Jet 1.13 PPG. That's a significant difference of 0.2 PPG

Selšnne was easily better than Tkachuk, but Tkachuk is a bit overrated by some people so I don't know what that says.

But one thing Fedorov have over Selšnne is that he wasn't traded in his prime. Especially not for Tverdovsky and to make room for Keith Tkachuk. Red Wings was instead rumoured to trade captain Yzerman to Ottawa for Yashin.

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03-15-2013, 12:09 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Tmu84 View Post
Not that I don't agree with you here, but it can be so difficult to compare the playoff perfomances of some players when clearly they did not have the equal chances to proof themselfs in the playoffs. One is playing for one of the best teams of the decade filled with HHOF-players, and one is playing for a Disney company with limited chances to even reach the playoffs. When did the Red Wings miss playoffs last time? Oh, that's right..
the year fedorov came over? (being 95% sarcastic here)

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03-15-2013, 12:18 PM
  #257
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Fedorov has the better peak but its just sad how biased this forum is in favour red wings players. Selanne played for horrible teams, Fedorov played on loaded teams. I'm sorry but 80% of a forward's responsibility is to score and based on overall career, Selanne dusts him away in this category. Then compare the teams that they were playing on and Selanne's offense was vastly more valuable than Fedorov's. Sergie gets my vote for most overrated player on hfboards. People here are too ignorant to realize that the defensive impact of a forward is nothing compared to the defensive impact of an actual defensive defenseman. Selanne will be ranked ahead of the likes of gilmour, modano and francis, but the red wings homer site just cant acknowledge that Teemu has clearly surpassed thier golden pretty boy.

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03-15-2013, 12:28 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Fedorov has the better peak but its just sad how biased this forum is in favour red wings players. Selanne played for horrible teams, Fedorov played on loaded teams. I'm sorry but 80% of a forward's responsibility is to score and based on overall career, Selanne dusts him away in this category. Then compare the teams that they were playing on and Selanne's offense was vastly more valuable than Fedorov's. Sergie gets my vote for most overrated player on hfboards. People here are too ignorant to realize that the defensive impact of a forward is nothing compared to the defensive impact of an actual defensive defenseman. Selanne will be ranked ahead of the likes of gilmour, modano and francis, but the red wings homer site just cant acknowledge that Teemu has clearly surpassed thier golden pretty boy.




Then Wayne Gretzky must be a Red Wings fan....

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03-15-2013, 12:33 PM
  #259
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Then Wayne Gretzky must be a Red Wings fan....
This forum is starting to rank selanne above gretzky's legendary sidekick. I have never seen fedorov get ranked above kurri in any mainstream publication or top 100 lists. Like I swear to god, its just ridiculous how having 1 hart season and then being a 60 point scorer for half of your career can take you so far in terms of getting overrated. Put this guy on a crappy team and hes another rod brind'amour or jonathan toews. Fedorov is hfboard's offficial prettyboy, lol.

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03-15-2013, 12:36 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well, you'd also have to concede that it's not a difference in performance but instead a difference in opportunity when one skater records 120 games (favorite in 17 of 22 series) in his 20s while the other records 21 games (favorite in 1 of 4 series) in his 20s. 38% of Selanne's games were against Detroit, by the way.
Yes, poor Teemu didn't get a chance to play much in the playoffs in his prime because his team was crappy. But you know what? That's life and that's hockey. Fedorov did have chances Teemu never had, and he absolutely excelled with them. Teemu's lack of opportunity does not mean we should take anything from a player who had that opportunity and excelled with it.

And the opportunity thing is a two-way street. Selanne played for a team that gave him as much ice time as he could handle, had a linemate in Kariya who was better offensively than anyone Fedorov played with, and Selanne was one of a few superstars during the dead puck era who was allowed to completely ignore defense - and one of the few other superstars who could ignore defense was on his line! Selanne had much more opportunities than Fedorov to rack up fancy looking numbers in the regular season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Fedorov has the better peak but its just sad how biased this forum is in favour red wings players. Selanne played for horrible teams, Fedorov played on loaded teams. I'm sorry but 80% of a forward's responsibility is to score and based on overall career, Selanne dusts him away in this category. Then compare the teams that they were playing on and Selanne's offense was vastly more valuable than Fedorov's. Sergie gets my vote for most overrated player on hfboards. People here are too ignorant to realize that the defensive impact of a forward is nothing compared to the defensive impact of an actual defensive defenseman. Selanne will be ranked ahead of the likes of gilmour, modano and francis, but the red wings homer site just cant acknowledge that Teemu has clearly surpassed thier golden pretty boy.
When you're too young to have seen Fedorov in his prime (and you are, you've said this in the past), and almost everyone who did see him raves about the overall impact he had on a game, maybe just maybe, you should listen to them.

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03-15-2013, 12:38 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, poor Teemu didn't get a chance to play much in the playoffs in his prime because his team was crappy. But you know what? That's life and that's hockey. Fedorov did have chances Teemu never had, and he absolutely excelled with them. Teemu's lack of opportunity does not mean we should take anything from a player who had that opportunity and excelled with it.

And the opportunity thing is a two-way street. Selanne played for a team that gave him as much ice time as he could handle, had a linemate in Kariya who was better offensively than anyone Fedorov played with, and Selanne was one of a few superstars during the dead puck era who was allowed to completely ignore defense - and one of the few other superstars who could ignore defense was on his line! Selanne had much more opportunities than Fedorov to rack up fancy looking numbers in the regular season.



When you're too young to have seen Fedorov in your prime (and you are, you've said this in the past), and almost everyone who did see him raves about the overall impact he had on a game, maybe just maybe, you should listen to them.
I have seen plenty of his games, dont try and give me a lecture when you always have a 'horse' in comparisons and are to blind to ignore context. 80% of forwards contribution comes from offense, dont try and change your standards now because your goldenboy is in the comparison. You have horses in comparisons so i wouldnt really care anyways.

By the way, you said in the past that Fedorov's defensive advantage wasnt enough to put him above sakic in 1996. So dont act like his defense now makes up for a lopsided difference in offense. As always, devilmademe changes his standards when he has a horse in a comparison.

I take the offensive player when the difference is lopsided, put fedorov on anaheim for his whole career and its a string of 60 point seasons with no playoff success, so freakin overrated on this board. By the way, you took fedorov over malkin, so yeah i dont need to say any more.

Maybe, just maybe, you should get the rose tinted glasses off and realize that his prime lasted 15 seconds, a mere flash in his overall career.

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03-15-2013, 12:40 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sergie gets my vote for most overrated player on hfboards.
It's those white Nike skates. I swear. He looked so good in those people couldn't tell it was a Lada painted as a Porsche.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And the opportunity thing is a two-way street. Selanne played for a team that gave him as much ice time as he could handle, had a linemate in Kariya who was better offensively than anyone Fedorov played with, and Selanne was one of a few superstars during the dead puck era who was allowed to completely ignore defense - and one of the few other superstars who could ignore defense was on his line! Selanne had much more opportunities than Fedorov to rack up fancy looking numbers in the regular season.
^ This.

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03-15-2013, 12:42 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I have seen plenty of his games, dont try and give me a lecture when you always have a 'horse' in comparisons and are to blind to ignore context. 809% of forwards contribution comes from offense, dont try and change your standards now because your goldenboy is in the comparison. You have horses in comparisons so i wouldnt really care anyways.

By the way, you said in the past that Fedorov's defensive advantage wasnt enough to put him above sakic in 1996. So dont act like his defense now makes up for a lopsided difference in offense. As always, devilmademe changes his standards when he has a horse in a comparison.
LOL, I've been called many things on teh interwebs before, but being called a Red Wings homer is certainly a new one.

PS. I've already said that I think this comparison is very close and could go either way, so I guess your temper tantrum about me having a "horse" is misguided.


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Old
03-15-2013, 12:48 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
It's those white Nike skates. I swear. He looked so good in those people couldn't tell it was a Lada painted as a Porsche.



^ This.
Yeah except the difference is Selanne had superstar seasons wthout kariya and he put up those fancy numbers on aweful teams. But yeah lets pretend fedorov has the same success on a crappy team.. In 1998 selanne was the only player on his team that was scoring, when you have offense that valauble to your team, it more than makes up for 2 way play, especially when your on a stacked red wings team loaded with offense. But I forgot, when Fedorov comes up, lets ignore context.

Why dont we rank Sakic above Jagr, i mean the gap in offense is smaller compared to the fedorov/selanne gap, and sakic is miles above jagr defensively.

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03-15-2013, 12:49 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
This forum is starting to rank selanne above gretzky's legendary sidekick. I have never seen fedorov get ranked above kurri in any mainstream publication or top 100 lists. Like I swear to god, its just ridiculous how having 1 hart season and then being a 60 point scorer for half of your career can take you so far in terms of getting overrated. Put this guy on a crappy team and hes another rod brind'amour or jonathan toews. Fedorov is hfboard's offficial prettyboy, lol.
I somewhat agree.

Fedorov's peak was outstanding but for much of the rest of his regular season career he was coasting in comparison -- and he had a team where he could do so.

He gets full marks from me for picking up again at playoff time but it is a luxury he enjoyed that he could pace himself in the regular season and have lots of gas left for the playoffs.

Most players don't get that opportunity.

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03-15-2013, 12:49 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
This forum is starting to rank selanne above gretzky's legendary sidekick. I have never seen fedorov get ranked above kurri in any mainstream publication or top 100 lists. Like I swear to god, its just ridiculous how having 1 hart season and then being a 60 point scorer for half of your career can take you so far in terms of getting overrated. Put this guy on a crappy team and hes another rod brind'amour or jonathan toews. Fedorov is hfboard's offficial prettyboy, lol.



I do not know what sort of "mainstream" media you were talking about but I trust the judgement of people who actually have played hockey at the highest level.

We mentioned Gretzky's opinion earlier in this thread.

And here is a quote by Yzerman:
"Sergei is a game-breaker for us anytime he's on the ice...He's the most talented player I've ever seen".

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03-15-2013, 12:51 PM
  #267
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I do not know what sort of "mainstream" media you were talking about but I trust the judgement of people who actually have played hockey at the highest level.

We mentioned Gretzky's opinion earlier in this thread.

And here is a quote by Yzerman:
"Sergei is a game-breaker for us anytime he's on the ice...He's the most talented player I've ever seen".
You dont think he has complimented other players?

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03-15-2013, 12:53 PM
  #268
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Then Wayne Gretzky must be a Red Wings fan....
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He's a great player, he's one of the elite players in the game

His skill is as good as anyone's in the National Hockey League.

He takes a hit to make a play, he might be the best passer in the game, he sees the open guys as good or better than anyone at this level.

I really have a lot of respect for him as a player. I've said for years he's one of the best players in the game, I wasn't as smooth as he is.

He's got tremendous smoothness and incredible hands.

"There's a few guys in the league who can pass the puck better than the other guys, I think Hemsky is right in that class."
- Wayne Gretzky

I guess we should get the Hemsky vs Fedorov thread started?

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03-15-2013, 12:54 PM
  #269
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I somewhat agree.

Fedorov's peak was outstanding but for much of the rest of his regular season career he was coasting in comparison -- and he had a team where he could do so.

He gets full marks from me for picking up again at playoff time but it is a luxury he enjoyed that he could pace himself in the regular season and have lots of gas left for the playoffs.

Most players don't get that opportunity.
The problem is you've got posters like devilmademe that want to ignore context. Context like the fact that in 1998 Selanne was THE OFFENCE of his team. When your offense is that valuable, it makes up for 2 way play. Put fedorov on that 1998 ducks team and they score even less and he has no playoff success at all. When you've got people saying fedorov is better than malkin, it speaks for itself.

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03-15-2013, 12:57 PM
  #270
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I somewhat agree.

Fedorov's peak was outstanding but for much of the rest of his regular season career he was coasting in comparison -- and he had a team where he could do so.

He gets full marks from me for picking up again at playoff time but it is a luxury he enjoyed that he could pace himself in the regular season and have lots of gas left for the playoffs.

Most players don't get that opportunity.
which is kind of ironic because if there was one forward of the last 30 years who was born to play heavy minutes in all situations without gassing himself, it was sergei fedorov. i don't think for a minute he needed to coast to "save himself," even if he obviously took advantage of that luxury.

and that, by the way, is what made him such a singular and special player, and that makes him so hard to compare... to anyone. the conventional metrics: points, points per game, scoring finishes, paint a pale picture of what he really was. he may be the only forward i've ever seen who could control the game on both sides of the puck and over every inch of the rink the way bourque and chelios did on D. partly that was a product of the role of the center in the old soviet system, but partly that was the effortless stride and ridiculous stamina that sergei was blessed with.

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03-15-2013, 01:04 PM
  #271
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Yes, poor Teemu didn't get a chance to play much in the playoffs in his prime because his team was crappy. But you know what? That's life and that's hockey. Fedorov did have chances Teemu never had, and he absolutely excelled with them. Teemu's lack of opportunity does not mean we should take anything from a player who had that opportunity and excelled with it.
How exactly did he excel? One PPG season in a decade? On a team with more offense and more talent than anyone else over that time-span?

And don't tell me he played defense. Its great that he played defense, but if you're arguing he's one of the top five players during that exact era, or better than a guy who set a record that will never be broken and who was one of the dominant offensive players of the era. . . that's not dominating. That's Rod Brind'Amour.

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And the opportunity thing is a two-way street. Selanne played for a team that gave him as much ice time as he could handle, had a linemate in Kariya who was better offensively than anyone Fedorov played with, and Selanne was one of a few superstars during the dead puck era who was allowed to completely ignore defense - and one of the few other superstars who could ignore defense was on his line! Selanne had much more opportunities than Fedorov to rack up fancy looking numbers in the regular season.
Fedorov didn't play against other teams' top checking lines. Fedorov wasn't the sole reason his team was ever in games. Fedorov was almost never the underdog in a playoff series. Fedorov never played a game of his Detroit career without at least one Hall-of-Fame puck-moving defenseman on the ice with him.

Amongst the many crazy things being said in this thread. . . the fact that we are going to try and argue that playing on the 1990s Red Wings did not benefit Fedorov is probably number one.

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When you're too young to have seen Fedorov in his prime (and you are, you've said this in the past), and almost everyone who did see him raves about the overall impact he had on a game, maybe just maybe, you should listen to them.
I watched him. He simply was not as good as he is being portrayed.

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03-15-2013, 01:04 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Then Wayne Gretzky must be a Red Wings fan....
Oh, please. Gretzky has a quote for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Gretzky
I know for a fact that if [Selanne and Kariya] were playing together and it was 1982, they would definitely break the records.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, poor Teemu didn't get a chance to play much in the playoffs in his prime because his team was crappy. But you know what? That's life and that's hockey.
But having opportunities doesn't make one player better than the other, especially when we have a surplus of evidence from the regular season and international play that suggests that Teemu Selanne was the better player. You're relying on a comparison of 120 games to 21 games with disparate levels of competition and team depth (thus allowing for easier offensive matchups) to conclude that the player on the better team must have been a better playoff performer rather than merely being a very good player with opportunity. If that's the case, why is it that Teemu Selanne led best-on-best Olympics in scoring twice and finished top-eight in regular season scoring seven times? Equal opportunity, because everyone played the same amount of games. If he didn't dry up completely by playing 38% of his 20s playoff games against Nicklas Lidstrom, then he's not going to dry up by playing the 1995 San Jose Sharks (sixth-worst defensive team; 11 of 24 points from this series) or the 1998 Phoenix Coyotes (eighth-worst defensive team; 9 of 20 points from this series).

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Fedorov has the better peak but its just sad how biased this forum is in favour red wings players.
It's a wonder they lost at all from 1992-2003, given the fact that they had the fifth-best player of all-time*, the best defenseman of all-time*, and a player with a peak season that rivals that of Gretzky and Lemieux*.

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03-15-2013, 01:09 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
The problem is you've got posters like devilmademe that want to ignore context. Context like the fact that in 1998 Selanne was THE OFFENCE of his team. When your offense is that valuable, it makes up for 2 way play. Put fedorov on that 1998 ducks team and they score even less and he has no playoff success at all. When you've got people saying fedorov is better than malkin, it speaks for itself.



Bowman needed Fedorov to generate more offense in the 1993/94 season and Sergei got over 50 goals and 120 points.

When later Bowman had decided to change Fedorov's role, Sergei excelled as a defensive forward.


Regarding Selanne -- if he was on the Detroit team in the 90s, I can see him as another Ray Sheppard or Dino Ciccarelli.

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03-15-2013, 01:11 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
It's a wonder they lost at all from 1992-2003, given the fact that they had the fifth-best player of all-time*, the best defenseman of all-time*, and a player with a peak season that rivals that of Gretzky and Lemieux*.
And a coach who managed to never play any of the three together because, as we all know, every single Red Wing had terrible linemates.

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03-15-2013, 01:12 PM
  #275
quoipourquoi
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
had a linemate in Kariya who was better offensively than anyone Fedorov played with
Paul Coffey.

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