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Old
03-15-2013, 10:29 AM
  #526
Paralyzer008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
IMO, this is exactly what we should be doing with mid round pics. We draft skill in the first round, defence in the 2nd, fill holes or long shots with everything else.

The reality is that the vast majority of 3rd round pics will never contribute as much as Brown doing right now. The majority of 3rd round pics will never see one NHL game. The ones that do are usually guys who offer a specific skill like fighting or 3rd line grinder.

Trading away mid picks for guaranteed results is smart asset management.
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:47 AM
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.
Do you want the list of non-notable players drafted there?

Clowe, Zidlicky, J. Jokinen, A.Alberts, Laich, Boogard, Huet, Moss, Oduya, Svatos, Gerber, Hollweg, Jurcina, Parenteau,

These guys were all 6th, 7th and 8th rounders in one draft, maybe we should never deal a later rounder ever.

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03-15-2013, 10:49 AM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.

18 guys out of 120 drafted is less than 10%. That means that over 90% of the 3rd round picks in those years would not contribute as much as Brown is right now.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:51 AM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.
You listed 18 names of players who turned out from rounds 3 and 4 from 2000 - 2004. 30 teams * 2 rounds * 5 years of drafting = 300 names picked. 18/300 is 6%. That is not "turning out quite a bit".

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:54 AM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.
So because 18 players out of 300 drafted have turned out to be solid NHL players, we should never deal a 3rd or 4th rounder? You do realize that is only a 6% chance of getting a solid player. I don't think that is helping your argument.

Edit: looks like I was it has already been pointed out.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:56 AM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.
So it's terrible asset management because 16 out of 300 players (im not conting tootoo or rupp) drafted in a 5 year stretch turned out better then him? Brown brings a consistent effort night in and night out and embraces his role far better then Eager did, while being a far better hockey player then Hordichuk is.

So we gave up a pick that had approximately a 5% chance of being a more effective hockey player then Mike Brown... I guess some people would rather just watch our shiny new prospects spoil in the minors year in and year out then get a player who actually brings a consistent effort finally.


Last edited by Mcjlockhart89: 03-15-2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Ha I see as I was slugging away on my iPad 2 other people mention the exact same thing. Point made.
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Old
03-15-2013, 11:00 AM
  #532
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Gagner and Harti for a signed Perry
Paajarvi and Lander for Pominville.
Sign Howard, Jones, Smid,


CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Jason Pominville ($5.300m) / Ryan N.-Hopkins ($3.775m) / Corey Perry ($6.325m)
Taylor Hall ($6.000m) / Shawn Horcoff ($5.500m) / Jordan Eberle ($6.000m)
Nail Yakupov ($3.775m) / Ryan Smyth ($2.250m) / Ales Hemsky ($5.000m)
Ryan Jones ($1.500m) / Eric Belanger ($1.750m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
Lennart Petrell ($0.955m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nick Schultz ($3.500m) / Justin Schultz ($3.775m)
Ladislav Smid ($3.250m) / Jeff Petry ($1.750m)
Oscar Klefbom ($1.275m) / Mark Fistric ($1.675m)
David Musil ($0.925m) / Corey Potter ($0.775m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($4.250m)
Devan Dubnyk ($3.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Ben Eager ($0.175m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,894,167; BONUSES: $8,900,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $228,333

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03-15-2013, 11:12 AM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
Gagner and Harti for a signed Perry
Paajarvi and Lander for Pominville.
Sign Howard, Jones, Smid,


CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Jason Pominville ($5.300m) / Ryan N.-Hopkins ($3.775m) / Corey Perry ($6.325m)
Taylor Hall ($6.000m) / Shawn Horcoff ($5.500m) / Jordan Eberle ($6.000m)
Nail Yakupov ($3.775m) / Ryan Smyth ($2.250m) / Ales Hemsky ($5.000m)
Ryan Jones ($1.500m) / Eric Belanger ($1.750m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
Lennart Petrell ($0.955m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nick Schultz ($3.500m) / Justin Schultz ($3.775m)
Ladislav Smid ($3.250m) / Jeff Petry ($1.750m)
Oscar Klefbom ($1.275m) / Mark Fistric ($1.675m)
David Musil ($0.925m) / Corey Potter ($0.775m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($4.250m)
Devan Dubnyk ($3.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Ben Eager ($0.175m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,894,167; BONUSES: $8,900,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $228,333

...no thanks.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:20 AM
  #534
ponokanocker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
Gagner and Harti for a signed Perry
Paajarvi and Lander for Pominville.
Sign Howard, Jones, Smid,


CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Jason Pominville ($5.300m) / Ryan N.-Hopkins ($3.775m) / Corey Perry ($6.325m)
Taylor Hall ($6.000m) / Shawn Horcoff ($5.500m) / Jordan Eberle ($6.000m)
Nail Yakupov ($3.775m) / Ryan Smyth ($2.250m) / Ales Hemsky ($5.000m)
Ryan Jones ($1.500m) / Eric Belanger ($1.750m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
Lennart Petrell ($0.955m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nick Schultz ($3.500m) / Justin Schultz ($3.775m)
Ladislav Smid ($3.250m) / Jeff Petry ($1.750m)
Oscar Klefbom ($1.275m) / Mark Fistric ($1.675m)
David Musil ($0.925m) / Corey Potter ($0.775m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($4.250m)
Devan Dubnyk ($3.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Ben Eager ($0.175m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,894,167; BONUSES: $8,900,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $228,333
Perry's taking that much less than Getzlaf? Horcoff as your #2C? Smyth as your #3C?

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:29 AM
  #535
Mr Forever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
Gagner and Harti for a signed Perry
Paajarvi and Lander for Pominville.
Sign Howard, Jones, Smid,


CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Jason Pominville ($5.300m) / Ryan N.-Hopkins ($3.775m) / Corey Perry ($6.325m)
Taylor Hall ($6.000m) / Shawn Horcoff ($5.500m) / Jordan Eberle ($6.000m)
Nail Yakupov ($3.775m) / Ryan Smyth ($2.250m) / Ales Hemsky ($5.000m)
Ryan Jones ($1.500m) / Eric Belanger ($1.750m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
Lennart Petrell ($0.955m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nick Schultz ($3.500m) / Justin Schultz ($3.775m)
Ladislav Smid ($3.250m) / Jeff Petry ($1.750m)
Oscar Klefbom ($1.275m) / Mark Fistric ($1.675m)
David Musil ($0.925m) / Corey Potter ($0.775m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($4.250m)
Devan Dubnyk ($3.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Ben Eager ($0.175m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,894,167; BONUSES: $8,900,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $228,333
This is unrealistic and terrible

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:33 AM
  #536
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Well, he didn't say to never deal them yet half of the people to respond are saying he did. All he's saying is to be smart about it.

I agree with what Sakich is saying in principal. 3+ round picks are usually better off being traded for players. The problem I have is when you're using them on players like Brown who are often available for nothing late into free agency and are often waived throughout the season.

Philly trading a 4th for Gagner was a good use of a pick that's likely to be of little help to your team. Edmonton trading a 4th (potentially a 3rd) for Brown was not. Especially when we already had a perfectly capable player in the exact same role.

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03-15-2013, 11:37 AM
  #537
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Well, he didn't say to never deal them yet half of the people to respond are saying he did. All he's saying is to be smart about it.

I agree with what Sakich is saying in principal. 3+ round picks are usually better off being traded for players. The problem I have is when you're using them on players like Brown who are often available for nothing late into free agency and are often waived throughout the season.

Philly trading a 4th for Gagner was a good use of a pick that's likely to be of little help to your team. Edmonton trading a 4th (potentially a 3rd) for Brown was not. Especially when we already had a perfectly capable player in the exact same role.
Eager was not a perfectly capable player. He was so bad that no one in the league would even take him for free.

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03-15-2013, 11:48 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Philly trading a 4th for Gagner was a good use of a pick that's likely to be of little help to your team. Edmonton trading a 4th (potentially a 3rd) for Brown was not. Especially when we already had a perfectly capable player in the exact same role.
Eager? Hordichuk? both of those scrubs couldn't do what Brown does...like hit, fight, grind along the corners, handle 8-10 minutes/night
they were both available on waivers and no one wanted them

it's funny, since Toronto traded Mike Brown, they've stunk

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Old
03-15-2013, 12:02 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Well, he didn't say to never deal them yet half of the people to respond are saying he did. All he's saying is to be smart about it.

I agree with what Sakich is saying in principal. 3+ round picks are usually better off being traded for players. The problem I have is when you're using them on players like Brown who are often available for nothing late into free agency and are often waived throughout the season.

Philly trading a 4th for Gagner was a good use of a pick that's likely to be of little help to your team. Edmonton trading a 4th (potentially a 3rd) for Brown was not. Especially when we already had a perfectly capable player in the exact same role.
Brown plays hard every single shift, there's no need to motivate him, he fights when he's supposed to and doesn't when he's not. He is a significant upgrade on Eager and most "goons". I cannot believe how so many people are so upset to part with a 4th round pick for a player that we so desperately needed. People complain about a lack of toughness than can play, we get a player that can play 8-10 minutes a night and add that along with a great work ethic and now we're supposed to be longing for a 4th round pick with a less than 10% chance of it being a 3rd?

Forget what other scouting staffs in the league have done with 3rd and 4th round picks back in 2004, what has this scouting staff done with the picks in those rounds? This is the scouting staff that will be drafting for us not Dallas', Minnesota's, etc.

3rd round:
Hesketh
Abney

Martindale
Perhonen
Ewanyk (possibly a center version of Mike Brown)
Khaira
Zharkov

With the exception of Rieder this is the better group of prospects, however the odds of us making the playoffs are quite slim so the chances that TO gets a 3rd are quite low and barely worth mentioning at this point IMO. A little more than 1/2 of these players look to be potential solid pro players with NHL careers up in the air for all of them at this point.

4th round:
Motin
Bigos
Rajala
Blain
Simpson
Rieder
Gustafsson

At least 2 of those picks are write offs, and while Rajala is doing well at the AHL level I doubt that he ends up being an Oiler due to our team's current make-up. Bigos is the wildcard and Rieder is the most promising of the bunch, if we're lucky 2/7 become NHLers for us.

The only players on this list that I'd at least hesitate to deal for Brown are: Martindale, Khaira, and Zharkov from the 3rd round and Rieder from the 4th. I like Ewanyk but his upside might be that of Brown so it's a wash. I would be pissed if we moved a 2nd rounder for Brown, however we didn't and a 3rd looks like a real stretch too. I could live with a 3rd just due to the raw numbers or prospects and suspects we have in the system, the fact that we have a pair of 2nd round picks this upcoming draft and the likelihood that we will have some picks coming back at the deadline.

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03-15-2013, 12:02 PM
  #540
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Eager? Hordichuk? both of those scrubs couldn't do what Brown does...like hit, fight, grind along the corners, handle 8-10 minutes/night
they were both available on waivers and no one wanted them

it's funny, since Toronto traded Mike Brown, they've stunk
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

I also think Mike Brown is an upgrade over Eager and Horidichuk, but he doesn't have that much of an impact.

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03-15-2013, 12:04 PM
  #541
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Adam Hall on waivers. I want.

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03-15-2013, 12:05 PM
  #542
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This is unrealistic and terrible
lol concise but exactly the same thing i was thinking

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03-15-2013, 12:06 PM
  #543
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Adam Hall on waivers. I want.
He can play center right? I'm with you, he doesn't make the Oilers' bottom-6 worse.

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03-15-2013, 12:07 PM
  #544
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc

I also think Mike Brown is an upgrade over Eager and Horidichuk, but he doesn't have that much of an impact.
wtf does that even mean...? Its like saying Eberle is really clutch, but it doesnt impact the game.

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03-15-2013, 12:08 PM
  #545
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He can play center right? I'm with you, he doesn't make the Oilers' bottom-6 worse.
Yep, 56.4 on the dot this year.

He'll get picked up, at the very least Chicago needs a 4th line center.

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03-15-2013, 12:12 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Thanks to Tyler Dellow, here's a list of notable guys drafted in the 3rd and 4th rounds between 2000-2004 who made it to the NHL:

Kurt Sauer, Mike Rupp, Dominic Moore, Lubomir Visnovsky, Niclas Wallin, Tomas Plekanec, Patrick Sharp, Christian Ehrhoff, Jordin Tootoo, Gregory Campbell, Valterri Filppula, Tom Gilbert, Clarke MacArthur, Jan Hejda, Tyler Kennedy, Ryan Callahan, Alex Edler and Johan Franzen

Point being is, even though you are dealing a lower pick, you still need to be careful about who you are acquiring because these guys do turn out quite a bit. For a team who wants to follow Chicago's model to fit under the cap, you need to draft these guys to fill the remainder of the team.

You could say Detroit uses smart asset management by using their first round picks as trade bait because they get similar value players later in the draft anyways. Our scouting staff isn't Detroit's, but a draft pick we trade for Brown could easily become a way better player down the road, as shown above. This isn't a problem if it costs a lesser draft pick, but a 3rd or a 4th is still significant for a team who isn't a cup contender yet.
You have to go back to the early 80s to find three Oilers 4th round picks who have played over 100 NHL games.

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03-15-2013, 12:13 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Well, he didn't say to never deal them yet half of the people to respond are saying he did. All he's saying is to be smart about it.

I agree with what Sakich is saying in principal. 3+ round picks are usually better off being traded for players. The problem I have is when you're using them on players like Brown who are often available for nothing late into free agency and are often waived throughout the season.

Philly trading a 4th for Gagner was a good use of a pick that's likely to be of little help to your team. Edmonton trading a 4th (potentially a 3rd) for Brown was not. Especially when we already had a perfectly capable player in the exact same role.
The Oilers might not have been able to get Brown through waivers, see Volpatti plus who's this guy that plays the same exact role? Please don't say Hordichuk. Brown is much much more effective in that role while Hordichuk is incapable of holding down a regular shift without being a complete liability or committing a dumb penalty.
I just don't see the big deal in giving up a miniscule 4th rounder for a guy who fills a need and can play every day.

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03-15-2013, 12:14 PM
  #548
Jimmi McJenkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Yep, 56.4 on the dot this year.

He'll get picked up, at the very least Chicago needs a 4th line center.
Wow, a MASSIVE upgrade on Smyth and VV

Plus you'd get to look forward to a Gene Principe "Halls" intro and puns


Last edited by Jimmi McJenkins: 03-15-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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Old
03-15-2013, 12:26 PM
  #549
Bryanbryoil
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I really haven't seen Hall, but he's listed at 6'3" and 213lbs. so he'd add some size to our 4th line, does he play big or small? I'd put in a claim for him, send down Hartikainen and then deal Belanger and call Harski back up.

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03-15-2013, 12:29 PM
  #550
OilerTyler
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The stats make Hall look like a good fourth line centre.

So why is a team worse than us waiving him?

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