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2013 Draft Discussion (Mar. 29 article, post #976)

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03-13-2013, 09:06 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Hagg will probably be somewhere between 20-30. He is not top 10.
I think daynus meant work up a second 1st round pick.

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03-13-2013, 09:29 PM
  #552
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You think the Flyers are making the playoffs?

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03-13-2013, 10:07 PM
  #553
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I genuinely think we're going to be in the bottom 3 after our week off. It's the only thing i'm excited about.

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03-13-2013, 10:09 PM
  #554
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I think Oilers have nothing to ***** about anymore about sucking this year. I feel if they do get #1 overall again, I wouldn't doubt if someone tried to find out of they were rigging the system or something.

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03-13-2013, 10:48 PM
  #555
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yes sorry

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I think daynus meant work up a second 1st round pick.
i did mean 25-30 for hagg. moving 2nd and whatever else. was just frazzled,tired after watching the flyers-debbies game.

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03-14-2013, 12:11 AM
  #556
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5th worst in point% and falling fast!!! How low can we go?

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03-14-2013, 01:23 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
In reality, id be ecstatic with any of Jones, Nurse, Pulock, Ristolainen or Zadorov
It depends on where the flyers pick. If the team stays around the bottom 5, I'd be supremely disappointed if they passed on one of the BPA forwards.

At this point, Flyers should be taking a long look at guys like Lindholm, Barkov, and Monahan.

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03-15-2013, 05:19 AM
  #558
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In projected points over 48 games, we are currently sitting at 5th

We have 25 points in 28 games

The next 3 teams are :
Washington 23 points in 26 games
Tampa bay : 23 points in 27 games
Buffalo : 23 points in 27 games

We have 3 games in the next 9 days
Washington has 6 games in that time
Tampa Bay has 5 games in that time
Buffalo has 5 games in that time

We could be looking at a bottom 2 pick by the time we play pittsburgh next sunday

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03-15-2013, 10:33 AM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
It depends on where the flyers pick. If the team stays around the bottom 5, I'd be supremely disappointed if they passed on one of the BPA forwards.

At this point, Flyers should be taking a long look at guys like Lindholm, Barkov, and Monahan.
And then do what to fix the gaping hole that is our defense now and for the future? Trade Couturier for a guy who hasn't been able to hold a steady nhl job like Runblad? A guy who's taken a scary big step back like Meyers? A guy who's been stuffed in the minors by a team who hasnt made the playoffs since the silent era like Gardiner? It's easier to draft a blue chip defenseman if you have a high draft pick than it is to trade for a blue chip defenseman after the BPA with your pick isn't a defenseman.

If we're at, for example #5, Id be disappointed if homer didnt try to do whatever was in his power to move up to the top 2 for Jones.

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03-15-2013, 11:14 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
And then do what to fix the gaping hole that is our defense now and for the future? Trade Couturier for a guy who hasn't been able to hold a steady nhl job like Runblad? A guy who's taken a scary big step back like Meyers? A guy who's been stuffed in the minors by a team who hasnt made the playoffs since the silent era like Gardiner? It's easier to draft a blue chip defenseman if you have a high draft pick than it is to trade for a blue chip defenseman after the BPA with your pick isn't a defenseman.

If we're at, for example #5, Id be disappointed if homer didnt try to do whatever was in his power to move up to the top 2 for Jones.
If the Flyers end up with a guy like Barkov or Mackinnon or Drouin or Monahan, then I don't think there's anything wrong with exploring what Couturier could land. For instance, if a deal were to be made around Tyler Myers, then I'd certainly hope that Buffalo is adding to the package. Same with regards to a deal for Rundblad. As for Rundblad not being able to hold a steady job in the NHL, I think a lot of that has to do with the franchises he plays for - you know, two teams that have pretty awesome depth on the blue line. Nothing wrong with letting a defenseman develop their game in a low risk environment.

As for Gardiner, he's a victim of circumstance in Toronto. Why the Leafs haven't called him up is beyond me. He should have been up by now. I know that when the season started, he was still suffering from PCS and that they had him up for two games and he was still a little rusty. As for now, he's ready and he should have been called up.

It's very easy to say "well, if the Flyers are in the top 5 they should try to move up to one of the top 2 spots". Fact is, they need to give up assets to move into the top 2 and even then, it's not even a guarantee that they land Jones. The only way to land the guy you want is to move to spot number, which once again, is easier said than done.

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03-15-2013, 11:28 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
And then do what to fix the gaping hole that is our defense now and for the future? Trade Couturier for a guy who hasn't been able to hold a steady nhl job like Runblad? A guy who's taken a scary big step back like Meyers? A guy who's been stuffed in the minors by a team who hasnt made the playoffs since the silent era like Gardiner? It's easier to draft a blue chip defenseman if you have a high draft pick than it is to trade for a blue chip defenseman after the BPA with your pick isn't a defenseman.

If we're at, for example #5, Id be disappointed if homer didnt try to do whatever was in his power to move up to the top 2 for Jones.
I really think the need of an elite defensemen is overblown. Look at the Devils line up. Their defense is no better than the Flyers. They play a structure defensive system and their forwards actually backcheck and dont turnover the puck in the neutral zone. The Flyers do not.

Drafting a defensemen is a crap shoot. The fact is the best one of this draft could be taken after the 1st round. Look at the defensemen taken after rd 1:Letang, Weber, Chara, Keith. Out of the top 10 scorers for defensemen this year, only 3 are first round picks. There is only 8 total 1st rounders in the top 30. The Flyers could get an elite forward and a great defensemen in the same draft as opposed to selling out for one guy who may or may not be the generational talent many think he is.

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03-15-2013, 12:25 PM
  #562
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I don't understand why people think every young defenseman in the league is immovable.

Why would we have to give up Couturier for Rundblad? He was already traded for a 20 point, 22 year old forward who couldn't keep an NHL job. Coburn was the 8th overall pick and was had for Zhitnik. Erik Johnson was traded in a fair deal. Bouwmeester's rights were traded for a 3rd round pick, Mez was traded here for a 2nd when he was 24, a situation not all that different from Myers.

Not everyone is going to cost an arm and a leg, and there are ways of getting defenseman without trading your top young players. You can't just go get Karlsson or Pietrangelo, but I feel like people overestimate how hard it is to get a defenseman.

I mean honestly it's considered nearly impossible on here to get a #1 defenseman, and yet Homer managed to get 2 in the span of what, 3 years? That's a hell of a lot harder to do then get some random young Dman who hasn't established himself yet.

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03-15-2013, 12:46 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I don't understand why people think every young defenseman in the league is immovable.

Why would we have to give up Couturier for Rundblad? He was already traded for a 20 point, 22 year old forward who couldn't keep an NHL job. Coburn was the 8th overall pick and was had for Zhitnik. Erik Johnson was traded in a fair deal. Bouwmeester's rights were traded for a 3rd round pick, Mez was traded here for a 2nd when he was 24, a situation not all that different from Myers.

Not everyone is going to cost an arm and a leg, and there are ways of getting defenseman without trading your top young players. You can't just go get Karlsson or Pietrangelo, but I feel like people overestimate how hard it is to get a defenseman.

I mean honestly it's considered nearly impossible on here to get a #1 defenseman, and yet Homer managed to get 2 in the span of what, 3 years? That's a hell of a lot harder to do then get some random young Dman who hasn't established himself yet.
It's nigh impossible to land a young #1 defenseman. Those kinds of players get locked up forever. Pronger/Timonen, bless their hearts, are on the downswing or end of their careers.

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03-15-2013, 12:59 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I really think the need of an elite defensemen is overblown. Look at the Devils line up. Their defense is no better than the Flyers. They play a structure defensive system and their forwards actually backcheck and dont turnover the puck in the neutral zone. The Flyers do not.

Drafting a defensemen is a crap shoot. The fact is the best one of this draft could be taken after the 1st round. Look at the defensemen taken after rd 1:Letang, Weber, Chara, Keith. Out of the top 10 scorers for defensemen this year, only 3 are first round picks. There is only 8 total 1st rounders in the top 30. The Flyers could get an elite forward and a great defensemen in the same draft as opposed to selling out for one guy who may or may not be the generational talent many think he is.
Well, of the top 10 D in scoring right I count 5 first rounders:

Suter
Kronwall
Shattenkirk
Pietrangelo
OEL

And of course Karlsson would certainly be there if he was playing.

You could say that drafting anyone is a crapshoot, but some are lower risk than others. Barring a real head case, talent will generally show itself sooner or later. When was the last time a defenseman was a consensus #1 like Jones is now? Erik Johnson was last d-man taken #1 overall, in 2006. Before that you go back another 10 years to 1996 (Chris Phillips).

And of the the d-men who have been taken with high picks (but not #1) recent years, are they doing so badly? OEL, Hedman, Pietrangalo, Doughty, heck even Luke Schenn?

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03-15-2013, 01:08 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
It's nigh impossible to land a young #1 defenseman. Those kinds of players get locked up forever. Pronger/Timonen, bless their hearts, are on the downswing or end of their careers.
That's why I mentioned Karlsson and Pietrangelo, but people on here make it seem like every young defenseman would require an enormous over payment.

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03-15-2013, 01:11 PM
  #566
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That's why I mentioned Karlsson and Pietrangelo, but people on here make it seem like every young defenseman would require an enormous over payment.
I think every young defenseman with realistic potential to become a top-pairing player is going to be over-valued simply because of demand.

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03-15-2013, 05:56 PM
  #567
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Did anyone hear Timmy P on the pregame show suggest trading our high first rounder for Ryan Whitney?

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03-15-2013, 06:00 PM
  #568
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Did anyone hear Timmy P on the pregame show suggest trading our high first rounder for Ryan Whitney?

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03-15-2013, 06:02 PM
  #569
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That is possibly the worst thing I have ever heard.

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03-15-2013, 07:01 PM
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That is possibly the worst thing I have ever heard.
I think he locked up on camera and blurted out the first name he could think of.

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03-15-2013, 07:03 PM
  #571
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The Flyers should pony up and trade their 1st round pick for a star defenseman, someone like Steve Montador or Erik Karlsson.

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03-15-2013, 07:06 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
And then do what to fix the gaping hole that is our defense now and for the future? Trade Couturier for a guy who hasn't been able to hold a steady nhl job like Runblad? A guy who's taken a scary big step back like Meyers? A guy who's been stuffed in the minors by a team who hasnt made the playoffs since the silent era like Gardiner? It's easier to draft a blue chip defenseman if you have a high draft pick than it is to trade for a blue chip defenseman after the BPA with your pick isn't a defenseman.

If we're at, for example #5, Id be disappointed if homer didnt try to do whatever was in his power to move up to the top 2 for Jones.
You can deal with that sort of problem when it comes. Counting your chickens before they hatch has proven to be a poor strategy, and that's why drafting BPA is the best way to go.

Also, it would be amazing to get Jones, but every team in the league will be after him. I'm not expecting Holmgren to be able to move up even a few spots to get him.

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03-15-2013, 09:19 PM
  #573
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Well, of the top 10 D in scoring right I count 5 first rounders:

Suter
Kronwall
Shattenkirk
Pietrangelo
OEL

And of course Karlsson would certainly be there if he was playing.

You could say that drafting anyone is a crapshoot, but some are lower risk than others. Barring a real head case, talent will generally show itself sooner or later. When was the last time a defenseman was a consensus #1 like Jones is now? Erik Johnson was last d-man taken #1 overall, in 2006. Before that you go back another 10 years to 1996 (Chris Phillips).

And of the the d-men who have been taken with high picks (but not #1) recent years, are they doing so badly? OEL, Hedman, Pietrangalo, Doughty, heck even Luke Schenn?
Whoops completely missed Shattenkirk so 5 out of top 12 (OEL tied at ten with 2 other guys), 9 out of the top 30. Add Karlson and its 6 out of 13 and 10 out of 30. Karlson actually proves might point about hype and defensemen. 6 more hyped defensemen were chosen ahead of him and he might be the best of that group. The year before Karl Alzner was considered the best defensemen, yet P.K. Subban was taken in the 2nd. 2005 Jack Johnson at 3rd overall or Kris Letang in the 3rd rd. 2004 Cam Barker 3rd overall vs Alexander Elder in the 3rd. Please find me a draft since the lockout where the best forward was drafted after the 1st round or even the top 5 picks.

I am not saying that if Jones is available when the Flyers come up, don't pick him. I am saying he is not worth adding resources to move up and pick him with what will be available if the Flyers stayed put. Let me rephrase my argument. If the Flyers had the 2nd pick in 2008, would it have made sense to trade up by adding another 1st or a player to draft Doughty or just stay put and draft Stamkos. Would you have added Couturier to get Hedman instead of just picking Tavares or even Duchene? I know the Flyers need a defensemen, but I think it would be better to save those resources to get someone more established or draft dmen in bulk.


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03-15-2013, 09:31 PM
  #574
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the whole "stack up on offense and ignore defense and goaltending" philosophy has really worked out well for us in the past 25 years.



Seth Jones is a potential franchise defensemen. That would make a huge huge impact on this franchise and it's future.


Drouin and Mackinnon are great consolation prizes, but ultimately leave us in the same spot we are now. Dynamic offense, not many difference makers on defense and in goal.

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03-15-2013, 10:31 PM
  #575
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Whoops completely missed Shattenkirk so 5 out of top 12 (OEL tied at ten with 2 other guys), 9 out of the top 30. Add Karlson and its 6 out of 13 and 10 out of 30. Karlson actually proves might point about hype and defensemen. 6 more hyped defensemen were chosen ahead of him and he might be the best of that group. The year before Karl Alzner was considered the best defensemen, yet P.K. Subban was taken in the 2nd. 2005 Jack Johnson at 3rd overall or Kris Letang in the 3rd rd. 2004 Cam Barker 3rd overall vs Alexander Elder in the 3rd. Please find me a draft since the lockout where the best forward was drafted after the 1st round or even the top 5 picks.

I am not saying that if Jones is available when the Flyers come up, don't pick him. I am saying he is not worth adding resources to move up and pick him with what will be available if the Flyers stayed put. Let me rephrase my argument. If the Flyers had the 2nd pick in 2008, would it have made sense to trade up by adding another 1st or a player to draft Doughty or just stay put and draft Stamkos. Would you have added Couturier to get Hedman instead of just picking Tavares or even Duchene? I know the Flyers need a defensemen, but I think it would be better to save those resources to get someone more established or draft dmen in bulk.
I'm not sure I exactly see your point about 2008. Doughty was taken 2nd, so you wouldn't have had to trade up to get him (if you had #2). Unless you mean, just to be sure you could get him? I do remember some debate over who would go #1, but as best as I can recall, Stamkos was generally considered the likely #1. I could be wrong about that.

But in that kind of situation, which may not be all that different from this year, it's going to depend on who drafts where and what they need. If the Flyers get #3 and the two teams ahead of them want forwards, then I would certainly try to make a deal. Even if the Flyers pick is somewhere in the top 10, I think if you're Homer you have to at least make the inquiry. It comes down to what you need, who's available where, and what it would take to get what you want. In this case, there is no player in the draft (as far as what's known right now) that meets the Flyers most pressing need more than Jones.

But I'm not saying sell the farm. If you can get say, Nurse in the first round and hold on to your other picks, and maybe make a trade for a veteran defenseman (like if Homer could pull off another Timonen type trade. Doubtful but maybe something like that) then I can see that being a good approach.

But I would definitely be willing to trade up to get Jones if the cost is reasonable. I really am not all that interested in either MacKinnon or Drouin- not that I don't believe they won't both be extremely good players. I just think this would more of the same for the Flyers. The last elite center they drafted who won a Cup with the Flyers was named Bobby Clarke.

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