HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Dallas Stars
Notices

Derek Roy's Next Contract

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-15-2013, 01:29 PM
  #101
Cin
Eurosnob.
 
Cin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Country: Thailand
Posts: 6,936
vCash: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Who was the last rental player to land a first round pick in return? When was it?



Poorly using good players makes me cry also.
Oh you mean Paul Gaustad?

Teams will only trade for him if they think they can sign him to a deal, so he won't really be a 'rental' in that sense.

Cin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 01:32 PM
  #102
StarsFan74
Registered User
 
StarsFan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Country: India
Posts: 2,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Who was the last rental player to land a first round pick in return? When was it?
Paul Gaustad (+4th rounder) around the 2012 deadline.

StarsFan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 01:39 PM
  #103
Troy McClure
Registered User
 
Troy McClure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Win it for Robidas!
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 24,426
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin View Post
Oh you mean Paul Gaustad?
Not asking to be snarky. I couldn't remember.

In years past, you would see quite a few first rounders go for rentals. That seems to have slowed a lot.

Troy McClure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 01:46 PM
  #104
StarsFan74
Registered User
 
StarsFan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Country: India
Posts: 2,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Not asking to be snarky. I couldn't remember.

In years past, you would see quite a few first rounders go for rentals. That seems to have slowed a lot.
It depends on whom we deal with, I guess. NSH, that has looked for offensive pieces for deeper playoff runs, has tended to give up a bit more for forwards. They should've been our intended target vis-a-vis Ryder.

StarsFan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 02:03 PM
  #105
Mr Misty
The Irons Are Back!
 
Mr Misty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
It depends on whom we deal with, I guess. NSH, that has looked for offensive pieces for deeper playoff runs, has tended to give up a bit more for forwards. They should've been our intended target vis-a-vis Ryder.
The story goes that the Red Winks were anteing up for Gaustad, and Nashville felt they had to go higher to keep him out of Detroit.

Mr Misty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 02:10 PM
  #106
Frozen Failure
Best Threadkiller
 
Frozen Failure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,410
vCash: 2111
Send a message via AIM to Frozen Failure Send a message via Yahoo to Frozen Failure
It's cutthroat out there. You can't ignore a valid method of player acquisition in offersheets if there's going to be straight up bidding wars for players that actually are available.

Regardless...

We can afford to give Roy a 3 year 18 million dollar deal. That's about as long as we want to give out, plus we have plenty of money coming off the books in the next year or two which will in all likelyhood be replaced with ELCs.

Frozen Failure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 02:21 PM
  #107
Troy McClure
Registered User
 
Troy McClure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Win it for Robidas!
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 24,426
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
We can afford to give Roy a 3 year 18 million dollar deal. That's about as long as we want to give out, plus we have plenty of money coming off the books in the next year or two which will in all likelyhood be replaced with ELCs.
I don't even mind going beyond three years.

If the Stars end up overpaying or in a cap crunch in the coming seasons partly due to Roy's moderately large contract, that will be because a few of these rookies have performed well enough to deserve hefty raises. God knows I'd be thrilled with the Stars having a problem caused by having too many good players.

Troy McClure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 02:21 PM
  #108
StarsFan74
Registered User
 
StarsFan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Country: India
Posts: 2,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
The story goes that the Red Winks were anteing up for Gaustad, and Nashville felt they had to go higher to keep him out of Detroit.
If that was the case, I'm quite sure we'd have found more than 2 teams trying outbid the others for Ryder's services.

StarsFan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 02:25 PM
  #109
Frozen Failure
Best Threadkiller
 
Frozen Failure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,410
vCash: 2111
Send a message via AIM to Frozen Failure Send a message via Yahoo to Frozen Failure
Cole is here to be a Morrow replacement and a mentor for Alex Chiasson. I think that has more value than a prospect and a pick to the organization at this point in time.

Frozen Failure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 02:35 PM
  #110
StarsFan74
Registered User
 
StarsFan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Country: India
Posts: 2,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
Cole is here to be a Morrow replacement
Exactly why I think it's such a waste when you can build on young kids like Roussel and Vincour's ability to play a grinding board game.

And before it's mentioned: No, I don't believe he can replicate his production from the past two seasons.

Quote:
and a mentor for Alex Chiasson.
Why "for Alex Chiasson?" Can you provide any evidence that management hired him for this purpose?

BTW, why not for Roussel, Vincour, or any other forwards? Did they cross management or Cole in some manner?

Quote:
I think that has more value than a prospect and a pick to the organization at this point in time.
We'll have to disagree. I don't see any evidence of his mentoring skills besides him being an old guy.

StarsFan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 03:13 PM
  #111
Hull Fan
Czech Stop
 
Hull Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Country: Albania
Posts: 5,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
Cole is here to be a Morrow replacement and a mentor for Alex Chiasson.
Doesn't change the fact that they over paid for him. He's sucked and had they just left him in Montreal where he would have continued to struggle they probably could have picked him up way cheaper because the Habs would have done just about anything to get rid of him. He's replaced Morrow as the dead weight of this organization. Yay!

Second how can he mentor a guy not even on the roster? Maybe next season but is that really why you acquire a player as a potential mentor to a guy who's had his own struggles in the AHL? Besides there's no real evidence he's some guru mentor type guy. Right now he's a 3rd line winger with net drive but no finish. Just what this team needs.

Quote:
I think that has more value than a prospect and a pick to the organization at this point in time.
On a team with severe talent questions this seems rather crazy. Outside of Benn there are no game breakers. Jagr and Whitney won't be here for much longer so Dallas needs to find guys to take their place and if that's a pick in this draft or a prospect from another team then that's what needs to happen. More new blood at this point is inevitable so the organization should do everything possible to increase the pool of talent rather than bring in yet another retread who's a step back from the 3 older guys they've already got.

Hull Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 03:20 PM
  #112
Cin
Eurosnob.
 
Cin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Country: Thailand
Posts: 6,936
vCash: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Not asking to be snarky. I couldn't remember.

In years past, you would see quite a few first rounders go for rentals. That seems to have slowed a lot.
Me either sir, I try to put the smileys in posts where I'm attempting to be friendly.

Cin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 03:31 PM
  #113
Frozen Failure
Best Threadkiller
 
Frozen Failure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,410
vCash: 2111
Send a message via AIM to Frozen Failure Send a message via Yahoo to Frozen Failure
Every organization worth their salt is building through the draft. Building through free agency is insanely difficult and usually foolish, hello Calgary. Watch Ryder walk from Montreal in free agency. They got a 3rd and 30 games of Michael Re-hash Ryder for missing out on two years of a guy who had been pretty good for them. If he signs there, it's going to be for more money and term than we wanted to handcuff ourselves to with so many similar wingers in the pipes. I'm more concerned about rebuilding an old boys' club, but at least Whitney and Cole aren't egomaniacs and can't be handled by the organization. There's always the possibility that we could get more for Ryder, but ultimately... who's going to pay that for a short season? We made a hockey trade rather than selling when we were/are still in the mix. Is that a bad thing? Not really. Cole's a veteran, and it's probably expected out of every veteran to provide some leadership and criticism and be ADULTS in the lockerroom to guys who will probably follow a similar career path as them. This is a job AND a career in a business and it should be treated as such. Successful companies do it.

Furthermore.

How many people expected Jamie Benn or Eriksson to be as good as they are now? How many poo-pooh'd Dillon to be a #3/4 at best?

It's too short sighted to look at the guys on the roster and say they won't impact the guys who WILL be on the roster. Hell, management/ownership has said there are guys in Austin who WILL be on the roster in the future. We've droned on about it. It takes time to acclimate to new teammates, new surroundings, a new, bigger, more dangerous league. How'd you feel if I dropped you into a tiger pit after being accustomed to hanging around capybaras? I believe that our prospects have NHL potential. It may not be the gamebreaking potential that's so rare, but it's about building a complete team and getting some great talent through the draft. We have Lehtonen, and Benn, and maybe Dillon soon enough, at the rate he's progressing.

Our amateur scouts are doing an absolutely bang up job getting guys into the organizational folds who produce. Outside of the odd ****up on their part in Glennie, King, or Coyle. Everyone's here to have a role in the organization and the organization's (players, managers, coaches) job is to help them get to that role.

Right now, we're slowly working from the bottom up to get to that appropriate level of cohesion. If they think Roy will help build the organization, then they will sign him. If he wants to be a part of the organization, he will sign here. Sometimes a trade wakes someone up. Whatup, Ribs.

And 1sts for rentals is slowing down because teams realize they can't continually buy rentals and players and forget about the draft, because organizational depth and cost control is so critical in a salary cap world with the rate of inflating contracts. Not having that first, or second round pick is often too painful for an organization to come back from, leaving huge gaps in their success... oh hey wait we traded all of our 1st and 2nd rounders for a few years and now look where we are. We are bad after getting rid of all of our talent for various reasons. Of course, we've traded for some talent in Kari, but ultimately... we've given up a lot of assets for not a lot of longer term relief.

This will rectify itself, it's very classical economics. As we suck, we draft better, and then we will stop sucking as long as we aren't Columbus because we will have better talent through the draft, which will allow us to sign a few key UFAs to supplement our roster and staff.

**** kids, this ain't hard.

Frozen Failure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 03:58 PM
  #114
Hull Fan
Czech Stop
 
Hull Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Country: Albania
Posts: 5,221
vCash: 500
FF,

I think you've got a very rose colored view of Cole because where I'm sitting pre lockout Cole looks absolutely nothing like the post lockout one we've seen so far.

There's more than enough leadership in this room to be fine. Cole doesn't make or break that when you've got Jagr, Whitney, Daley, Robidas, etc in the room.

I'm willing to bet Montreal is laughing hysterically at the return they got for a dying asset. Cole wasn't producing, he wasn't helping his young linemates there and they were on the hook for a decent chunk of money for two more years. Instead they got a better player who's helping their kids play better and produce, dropped an onerous contract, and freed up cap space so they could make a move for Perry or someone else this summer.

Dallas got a player on the wrong side of 34, who isn't scoring or making a real difference on the ice, they're on the hook for two more years, gave up their best trade asset and oh yeah he hasn't shown any more leadership than Ryder did. How is this a good trade for the organization and how has Dallas improved going forward? Cap certainty means diddly when you're no where near the cap anyway. Another Eakin type trade for futures sure would be nice right now wouldn't it?

Hull Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:24 PM
  #115
Frozen Failure
Best Threadkiller
 
Frozen Failure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,410
vCash: 2111
Send a message via AIM to Frozen Failure Send a message via Yahoo to Frozen Failure
Leadership out of Daley, Robidas... ? Jagr? Jagr's never been a real leader on a team. Daley's kind of a behind the scenes guy. Saw him at rookie camp helping with practice. Robidas' really the only real leader there, and even then... he's been around for a lot of failed seasons.

You're saying we should've kept Ryder and gone after Perry instead of letting Montreal get him? For one, Perry won't be ever welcome in Dallas. Two, I'm pretty sure Perry would really rather go play in Montreal than here in Dallas, so why on Earth would you even use him an example? Besides, what free agent really wants to come to Dallas? We overpaid for Jagr and gave Whitney 2 years on a 35+ contract when no one else would. You can't say we'd be better at acquiring a UFA. I'd rather have a 2 year stopgap than a 7 year supercontract that would completely bend us over in 4 years when we're starting to get 2nd contracts out for the kids.

I'm not really interested in acquiring more futures. We have a lot of futures for the next 2-3 years with guys getting out of juniors/college and hitting the AHL. I consider the acquisiton of Cole to be a stopgap until we get some kids adjusted to the NHL game.

Same reason we dropped Grossmann. Wanted too many years, would've messed with the transition but whatever, I would've signed him for 3 years at the dollars he got.

Sure. It's a rosy view of the Cole trade, because that's what it is. Sure, we didn't get to keep our offensive goalie-Newfie, and he's been on his game this year, oddly enough, but it's a contract year for him. It's his last chance to cash in. He's ultimately just another complementary piece which we could replace.

Frozen Failure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:28 PM
  #116
________
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Minnesota
Country: United States
Posts: 4,641
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to ________ Send a message via MSN to ________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
Honestly, what harm is a bad contract the next few years? I think it gets way overblown. This team has a ton of cap space, and needs talent. I think it's riskier not overpaying and letting a legit top 6 forward walk.
I never said let Roy walk, if he's not re-signed at the deadline trade him.
Roy is someone I can definitely see a team not being able to count on over the course of a 4 or 5 year deal. He's not someone who will age well.

________ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 04:55 PM
  #117
Hull Fan
Czech Stop
 
Hull Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Country: Albania
Posts: 5,221
vCash: 500
My point was strictly what did Montreal get. I didn't want Ryder to walk. I wanted futures. You think we have enough and I don't think we do, especially on defense. If Ryder could have been used to nab a young defenseman wow wouldn't that be nice. Even if it cost Ryder+ for J. Morrow in Pittsburgh Dallas would have been much better off.

Niewendyk made a bad trade. Ryder had tons of value and we blew it on a subpar return. If he had such a hard on for Cole he could have been acquired later in a separate deal. They should have asked for Leblanc or something else had we said no to Cole at that price.

Besides not all futures pan out so better to have several and see who works than limit themselves to old has beens hoping every young guy in the AHL they think will make it actually does.

Hull Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 05:12 PM
  #118
txomisc
Registered User
 
txomisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 8,494
vCash: 500
there is no such thing as enough futures. Whether its the promise of a current minor leaguer or the hope of a draft pick, futures are the biggest bargaining chips in the NHL. You collect them because other teams always want them and if you are in a position where you need to add a veteran they are what teams trading veteran players want most.

txomisc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 06:10 PM
  #119
piqued
Global Moderator
victory green?
 
piqued's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Dallas
Country: United States
Posts: 30,634
vCash: 27750
I have no desire to re-sign Roy. Trade him.

piqued is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 06:35 PM
  #120
piqued
Global Moderator
victory green?
 
piqued's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Dallas
Country: United States
Posts: 30,634
vCash: 27750
I still wonder what we could've gotten by trading Ott directly to Vancouver last season.

piqued is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 07:05 PM
  #121
Arpi3080
Everybody be cool!
 
Arpi3080's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Country: Germany
Posts: 736
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
I still wonder what we could've gotten by trading Ott directly to Vancouver last season.
I think they could've gotten Hodgson and a pick for him.

Lebrun speculated that the Flyers are interested in Ott and the Stars asking for JVR:

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...08&src=desktop

Arpi3080 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 07:14 PM
  #122
txomisc
Registered User
 
txomisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 8,494
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arpi3080 View Post
I think they could've gotten Hodgson and a pick for him.

Lebrun speculated that the Flyers are interested in Ott and the Stars asking for JVR:

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...08&src=desktop
i dont believe vancouver wanted to trade Hodgson to anyone in the Western Conference. Also if they could have gotten Hodgson straight up, let alone Hodgson and a pick for Steve Ott they are criminally stupid for not taking it.

txomisc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 07:18 PM
  #123
Mr Misty
The Irons Are Back!
 
Mr Misty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc View Post
i dont believe vancouver wanted to trade Hodgson to anyone in the Western Conference. Also if they could have gotten Hodgson straight up, let alone Hodgson and a pick for Steve Ott they are criminally stupid for not taking it.
I think they couldn't get Hodgson, which is part of the reason he didn't get traded there.

Mr Misty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 07:23 PM
  #124
Arpi3080
Everybody be cool!
 
Arpi3080's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Country: Germany
Posts: 736
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc View Post
i dont believe vancouver wanted to trade Hodgson to anyone in the Western Conference. Also if they could have gotten Hodgson straight up, let alone Hodgson and a pick for Steve Ott they are criminally stupid for not taking it.
Imo Kassian was just plan B, therefore I think it wasn't unrealistic that Ott could bring him back.

Arpi3080 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2013, 07:28 PM
  #125
MetalGodAOD
Moderator
Star Rangers
 
MetalGodAOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 11,709
vCash: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
I have no desire to re-sign Roy. Trade him.
Do you think the space and marginal rental price we get for him will be better than a passable 2nd line Center over the next few years?

MetalGodAOD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:30 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.