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All-Encompassing Tortorella/Sather Thread

View Poll Results: A quarter of the way through the 2013 season, do you approve or disapprove of Torts?
Approve 168 50.45%
Disapprove 165 49.55%
Voters: 333. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-15-2013, 01:37 PM
  #776
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They are probably just tuning him out. His schtick is old
Precisely why it's horrifying. That can't happen.

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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
My complaint when Tortorella was hired is that the team went to the opposite end of the spectrum to find a coach. They wen't from a nurturing, friend of the players kind of coach to a guy who screams at everyone and everything and is too much of a "learn by fear" kind of coach. I was hoping for Laviolette because I think he falls somewhere in the middle. He's a good developmental coach who can bring the kids along, but he also has a low BS tolerance that works well with vets who get complacent. I think he's a far better tactician than Tortorella is as well.

I see some similarities between this team and the 08-09 Pens. Not in the sense that we're on the cusp of a cup, but the fact that a very fiery, defense first, my way or the highway coach is at the helm and the team has perhaps reached a point where it can only go so far on that system. Therrien got them to a point that they were struggling to live up to last seasons success and was having problems getting the team to continue to buy in to what he had put in place. Bylsma stepped in with fresh ideas and a better attitude, and piggy-backed off of the system that was in place. He opened up the taps just enough offensively that they found a perfect balance of offense and defense. That coaching change, coupled with a key trade by Shero (Whitney/Kunitz) two weeks before, were the catalysts that propelled that team to the ultimate prize.

Now, is it completely the same situation? Of course it isn't. However, when you look at the Pens from 07-08 getting so close to a cup, then struggling to make the playoffs halfway through the season the following year, it draws some interesting comparisons between us and them. Naturally the lockout is a big player in things as well.
I too wanted Lavi. My desire for him was really put to rest though the way the Rangers have dominated the Flyers as of late, specifically last season. I still Lavi would be a better fit here, and Torts would be a better fit with the Flyers.

It's a great comparison to the Penguins, and you might be right. The only thing is there really a suitable replacement such as Bylsma out there? Now, I really don't think Bylsma is that great of a coach, he fell into an amazing situation in Pitt.

Is Ruff that guy for the Rangers? Maybe not. Is he a better coach than Tortorella? I certainly think so. I will admit that I'm a Torts hater, I really am. I can't fall in love with the team these days due to how much I loathe Tortorella and his new system here. Even last year when they were winning I couldn't really fully get behind them. This season is a completely different monster though. And I'd gladly take my crow if he's lifting the Stanley Cup after it makes it's rounds with Callahan and the crew.

Torts is a creature of his own demise. He loves jam, and that's exactly what he's doing with this team. Square pegs that won't fit into round holes unless you jam them; and even then, it's a poor fit.

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03-15-2013, 01:39 PM
  #777
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This threads gonna be a **** show when the pro Torts/Sather crew shows up

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03-15-2013, 01:41 PM
  #778
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This threads gonna be a **** show when the pro Torts/Sather crew shows up
I'm pro Sather. Since the Redden signing and bringing in Gorton I think he's done a fantastic job *puts up shield*

I'm just very anti-Torts

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03-15-2013, 01:44 PM
  #779
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Success hangover. It happens to a lot of teams. You need good leadership (both coaching and players) to make sure the team stays focused and retains the work ethic that got them where they were the previous year. This year's team is not less talented than last year's version. The energy and work ethic hasn't been there. I think the coaching staff has failed to keep these guys going. There seems to be a sense of "Oh well, we just have to show up and the rest will take care of itself". Feet not moving. Lack of attention to small details. Something has to give. And as always, it's easier to replace the coach than the team.
I think it's more common amongst teams who win a cup, as opposed to those who come so close only to miss out, but you're right in a sense. I was more interested in the correlations between play styles and coaches than I was the level of success.

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03-15-2013, 01:49 PM
  #780
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I think it's more common amongst teams who win a cup.
Absolutely.

And yeah, I agree that whoever eventually replaces Torts (maybe tomorrow, maybe five years from now) will carry a gentler disposition.

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03-15-2013, 02:03 PM
  #781
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This threads gonna be a **** show when the pro Torts/Sather crew shows up
Eh, I've obviously been firmly in the pro Torts/Sather group but honestly this conversation seems to be going in circles and I'm getting bored with it. The torts haters just don't even make points, they just circle-jerk about things they can in no way prove at best and are just absurd at worst. "They're tuning him out," "Torts isn't letting them play offense," "Shot blocking doesn't work," "You can't win grinding," "We should try to out Hawks the hawks, we have more talent then them," just come on. Anyway, the path of the team isn't going to be decide by whoever gets the last post in HF boards, and I know ultimately the torts haters will be proven wrong by the course of events.

Really, the guy was a coach of the year finalist last season. He's not going to be fired in a lockout shortened season 25 games in because they've been mediocre. Way too many impatient trigger-happy people here. It baffles me how you've heard yankee fans wanting Girardi fired after he just went out and won a world series for them, so I'd venture to guess those are the much the same crazies who want Torts fired. Some people think winning is easy.

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03-15-2013, 02:04 PM
  #782
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Absolutely.

And yeah, I agree that whoever eventually replaces Torts (maybe tomorrow, maybe five years from now) will carry a gentler disposition.
I would be impressed if they could find someone less gentle.

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03-15-2013, 02:36 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Eh, I've obviously been firmly in the pro Torts/Sather group but honestly this conversation seems to be going in circles and I'm getting bored with it. The torts haters just don't even make points, they just circle-jerk about things they can in no way prove at best and are just absurd at worst. "They're tuning him out," "Torts isn't letting them play offense," "Shot blocking doesn't work," "You can't win grinding," "We should try to out Hawks the hawks, we have more talent then them," just come on. Anyway, the path of the team isn't going to be decide by whoever gets the last post in HF boards, and I know ultimately the torts haters will be proven wrong by the course of events.

Really, the guy was a coach of the year finalist last season. He's not going to be fired in a lockout shortened season 25 games in because they've been mediocre. Way too many impatient trigger-happy people here. It baffles me how you've heard yankee fans wanting Girardi fired after he just went out and won a world series for them, so I'd venture to guess those are the much the same crazies who want Torts fired. Some people think winning is easy.
I agree about Torts.

You Sather defense was/is inexcusable.

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03-15-2013, 02:45 PM
  #784
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This threads gonna be a **** show when the pro Torts/Sather crew shows up
I'd say I'm pro Torts, or at least against firing him for now. There's not much more to say. I don't think it's wise to fire a guy who had so much success with so many of these players just last year due to a mediocre season that started under unusual circumstances. This team looks out of sorts most nights. I think that's partially on the coach, partially on the players (some guys more than others), and partially on the GM for turning over half the forward corps from last year.

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:50 PM
  #785
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At this point, I am starting to question all of them.

Clarke, Gorton, Sather and Torts.

ALL OF THEM

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03-15-2013, 02:51 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Eh, I've obviously been firmly in the pro Torts/Sather group but honestly this conversation seems to be going in circles and I'm getting bored with it. The torts haters just don't even make points, they just circle-jerk about things they can in no way prove at best and are just absurd at worst. "They're tuning him out," "Torts isn't letting them play offense," "Shot blocking doesn't work," "You can't win grinding," "We should try to out Hawks the hawks, we have more talent then them," just come on. Anyway, the path of the team isn't going to be decide by whoever gets the last post in HF boards, and I know ultimately the torts haters will be proven wrong by the course of events.

Really, the guy was a coach of the year finalist last season. He's not going to be fired in a lockout shortened season 25 games in because they've been mediocre. Way too many impatient trigger-happy people here. It baffles me how you've heard yankee fans wanting Girardi fired after he just went out and won a world series for them, so I'd venture to guess those are the much the same crazies who want Torts fired. Some people think winning is easy.
I knew you were there hiding somewherein the shadows
Tortorella hockey is actually anti hockey IMO
He is also a lousy in-game coach - seldomly actively matching lines or players optimally or without real good skills in games. I played hockey to a pretty high level and personally know quite the few players that have played for the madman in question so...
His style of hockey (with a terrible excuse for a PP that he does not seem to take seriously, dump & chase, grind grind grind, no transition game at all any more, the 6 goalie shot blocking system, never let the offense roll out thereby keeping all games close and making the 1st goal extremely vital, rolling lines totally randomly, riding the workhorses too hard regardless, his bullying style always with a blind eye to his favorites that do not deem worthy of his holinesses protection) is abysmal at best to watch, it only gets accepted when the team wins but nobody that really loves the game can say it has entertainment value other than to die hard Rangers fans
His inconsistencies with class & responsibility - including his own actions and behavior (thinking the Washington series up 3-1, the recurring retarded pressers, Kreiders injury when he got hit against Pittsburgh...) - are telling and annoying. If he wins - yeah well then I know simple people will seem to forget it (I never did) - but when he is losing well yeah, it gets ugly and pathetic.
I think we can agree to disagree here. Neither of us will ever change our stance, we are too deeply entrenched in these views. The style of coaching, hockey and propagates is not my cup of tea. If he wins I will have to bow to the results as I am first and foremost a Rangers fan. If he does not - and his record so far in NYC on the whole is hardly worthy of a CV I would employ considering all things - then he gets the heat. Simple as that. I liked and supported Renney to a point - but when things got to the point they did I realized his time had come and change was necessary. I never liked Torts as a coach, a person or foremost his hockey mentality and philosophy. His time cometh soon enough and it will not be a day too early in my book. Now you go out and have a great evening Mr Varnsen and let us really mutually hope that we win against The Crybabies 2 morrow!

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03-15-2013, 02:53 PM
  #787
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At this point, I am starting to question all of them.

Clarke, Gorton, Sather and Torts.

ALL OF THEM
Gordie Clark's record of "stellar drafting" is one of the biggest myths perpetrated on this board.

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03-15-2013, 03:11 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Eh, I've obviously been firmly in the pro Torts/Sather group but honestly this conversation seems to be going in circles and I'm getting bored with it. The torts haters just don't even make points, they just circle-jerk about things they can in no way prove at best and are just absurd at worst. "They're tuning him out," "Torts isn't letting them play offense," "Shot blocking doesn't work," "You can't win grinding," "We should try to out Hawks the hawks, we have more talent then them," just come on. Anyway, the path of the team isn't going to be decide by whoever gets the last post in HF boards, and I know ultimately the torts haters will be proven wrong by the course of events.

Really, the guy was a coach of the year finalist last season. He's not going to be fired in a lockout shortened season 25 games in because they've been mediocre. Way too many impatient trigger-happy people here. It baffles me how you've heard yankee fans wanting Girardi fired after he just went out and won a world series for them, so I'd venture to guess those are the much the same crazies who want Torts fired. Some people think winning is easy.
Iím finding a hard time defending Tortorella when it comes to his asinine line juggling Ė disrupting productive lines every other game, or within game. In over 20y of watching hockey Iíve never seen a coach totally disregard the value of developing chemistry within his lineup.
There is no offensive cohesion in this lineup, and itís largely due to this coach's bizarre belief that set lines are irrelevant. Do they practice set plays? because they canít pass to one another, and theyíre defenseman canít seem to put the puck on the net game after game.

His total Inability to coach a functioning Power Play since his arrival (donít say itís Sullivan's job). Itís just not acceptable that regardless of the personnel we acquire, we canít Ice a functioning powerplay. He continues to act like heís absolved from all responsibility to affect it.

Winning hockey in a Tortorella system seems overly strenuous imo. For instance thereís no reason to rely solely upon collapsing shot blocking as a means of defending, when we have a talented young defense. We have practically no neutral zone game. The possibility for injury exists in every game and thatís a huge liability in terms of depth and consistent winning. Other teams are very successful without employing such a system exclusively.

I think these are real reasons why people such as myself are getting tired of this coach. If they win, or have success itís seems to be in spite of the above. I think there is more to being a coach than yelling and cursing out your team, and holding grudges against your star players.

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03-15-2013, 03:12 PM
  #789
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Gordie Clark's record of "stellar drafting" is one of the biggest myths perpetrated on this board.
Glad I'm not the only one thinking it.

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03-15-2013, 03:19 PM
  #790
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Glad I'm not the only one thinking it.
Dont get me wrong, I think its been good. Stepan, Hagelin, Staal, Del Zotto - they're all good players.

But the way hes revered around here, you expect more. At forward, theres no top-end talent, and no bottom 6 guys. When you start bringing in tons of guys with 2nd line ceilings, it starts to get redundant. As for the bottom 6, yikes, Clark has been on the job for several years and the entire 3rd/4th line is imported besides Miller - who is thoroughly unprepared for consistent NHL duty right now.

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03-15-2013, 03:25 PM
  #791
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At this point, I am starting to question all of them.

Clarke, Gorton, Sather and Torts.

ALL OF THEM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Dont get me wrong, I think its been good. Stepan, Hagelin, Staal, Del Zotto - they're all good players.

But the way hes revered around here, you expect more. At forward, theres no top-end talent, and no bottom 6 guys. When you start bringing in tons of guys with 2nd line ceilings, it starts to get redundant. As for the bottom 6, yikes, Clark has been on the job for several years and the entire 3rd/4th line is imported besides Miller - who is thoroughly unprepared for consistent NHL duty right now.
i've often wondered why we have to go outside for bottom six positions? We don't have a Prust or an Asham within the system that this coach can trust to play? really? All we seem to do is draft defenseman in the 1st round and we can't bring anyone up to play the 5/6 position?

*cue the messier 1994 video*

it's starting to get old...

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03-15-2013, 03:27 PM
  #792
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Iím finding a hard time defending Tortorella when it comes to his asinine line juggling Ė disrupting productive lines every other game, or within game. In over 20y of watching hockey Iíve never seen a coach totally disregard the value of developing chemistry within his lineup.
There is no offensive cohesion in this lineup, and itís largely due to this coach's bizarre belief that set lines are irrelevant. Do they practice set plays? because they canít pass to one another, and theyíre defenseman canít seem to put the puck on the net game after game.

His total Inability to coach a functioning Power Play since his arrival (donít say itís Sullivan's job). Itís just not acceptable that regardless of the personnel we acquire, we canít Ice a functioning powerplay. He continues to act like heís absolved from all responsibility to affect it.

Winning hockey in a Tortorella system seems overly strenuous imo. For instance thereís no reason to rely solely upon collapsing shot blocking as a means of defending, when we have a talented young defense. We have practically no neutral zone game. The possibility for injury exists in every game and thatís a huge liability in terms of depth and consistent winning. Other teams are very successful without employing such a system exclusively.

I think these are real reasons why people such as myself are getting tired of this coach. If they win, or have success itís seems to be in spite of the above. I think there is more to being a coach than yelling and cursing out your team, and holding grudges against your star players.
There is definitely some crazy love for Tort that I can't understand most of the time. He's a coach that won a Cup, and that's really awesome. But I agree with you on the fact that he has no regard for letting some players mesh together and keeping them together. It is really hard for some of these guys to go out and play with a completely different style every single night.

On top of that, his view of press conferences being an absolute joke, yelling at all of his players like an army sergeant and throwing them under the bus when they don't want to jump in front of every Chara slap shot. They have the best goaltender in the world, but feel the need to get in his way, accidentally deflect shots into an open man (who is usually in the slot with a wide open net).

I just tire of watching a slow, boring Rangers team.

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03-15-2013, 03:30 PM
  #793
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There is definitely some crazy love for Tort that I can't understand most of the time. He's a coach that won a Cup, and that's really awesome. But I agree with you on the fact that he has no regard for letting some players mesh together and keeping them together. It is really hard for some of these guys to go out and play with a completely different style every single night.

On top of that, his view of press conferences being an absolute joke, yelling at all of his players like an army sergeant and throwing them under the bus when they don't want to jump in front of every Chara slap shot. They have the best goaltender in the world, but feel the need to get in his way, accidentally deflect shots into an open man (who is usually in the slot with a wide open net).

I just tire of watching a slow, boring Rangers team
.
It was nice when we were winning. Now its getting frustrating.

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03-15-2013, 03:30 PM
  #794
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This season is a free pass for everyone in my book. No training camp, less than 50 games, high roster turnover. Seriously people expected instant chemistry? Add to that missing almost every star player on the team at one point in this shortened season. Add to that Brad Richards being Scott Gomez.

Well this is what you get when you add all of those things together. And none of those things are Torts fault. Blame Sather for not bringing in more depth if you're going to point fingers.

One more thing. Tort's personality is very extreme but people are confusing that with being stubborn or irrational. He knows how to bring along young talent. He criticizes anyone who is playing poorly and praises anyone who is playing well. He benches people when they need to be benched. He has his finger on the pulse of his players and knows how to get them going most of the time. I don't remember hearing Torts throw anyone under a bus.

The Torts the tyrant myth is getting old. Don't watch his :05 pressers if it bothers you so much.


Last edited by Captain Monglobster: 03-15-2013 at 03:35 PM. Reason: One more thing
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03-15-2013, 03:30 PM
  #795
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There is definitely some crazy love for Tort that I can't understand most of the time. He's a coach that won a Cup, and that's really awesome. But I agree with you on the fact that he has no regard for letting some players mesh together and keeping them together. It is really hard for some of these guys to go out and play with a completely different style every single night.

On top of that, his view of press conferences being an absolute joke, yelling at all of his players like an army sergeant and throwing them under the bus when they don't want to jump in front of every Chara slap shot. They have the best goaltender in the world, but feel the need to get in his way, accidentally deflect shots into an open man (who is usually in the slot with a wide open net).

I just tire of watching a slow, boring Rangers team.
Its far from crazy love.

Its about being around long enough to know:

1. this team's problems go far beyond coaching and...
2. perhaps most importantly, if you're complaining about Tortorella now - after an ECF run, a lockout shortened season with no training camp, and huge roster turnover, its quite evident you'll be complaining about the next coach in no time. So, best to just ride the rest of this season out.

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03-15-2013, 03:34 PM
  #796
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Iím finding a hard time defending Tortorella when it comes to his asinine line juggling Ė disrupting productive lines every other game, or within game. In over 20y of watching hockey Iíve never seen a coach totally disregard the value of developing chemistry within his lineup.
There is no offensive cohesion in this lineup, and itís largely due to this coach's bizarre belief that set lines are irrelevant. Do they practice set plays? because they canít pass to one another, and theyíre defenseman canít seem to put the puck on the net game after game.

His total Inability to coach a functioning Power Play since his arrival (donít say itís Sullivan's job). Itís just not acceptable that regardless of the personnel we acquire, we canít Ice a functioning powerplay. He continues to act like heís absolved from all responsibility to affect it.

Winning hockey in a Tortorella system seems overly strenuous imo. For instance thereís no reason to rely solely upon collapsing shot blocking as a means of defending, when we have a talented young defense. We have practically no neutral zone game. The possibility for injury exists in every game and thatís a huge liability in terms of depth and consistent winning. Other teams are very successful without employing such a system exclusively.

I think these are real reasons why people such as myself are getting tired of this coach. If they win, or have success itís seems to be in spite of the above. I think there is more to being a coach than yelling and cursing out your team, and holding grudges against your star players.
To add to the line juggling. I can't stand how he moves guys from each wing to the other or centers to the wing. And this goes on in game. Players need to be comfortable in positions, on this team you never know where you're gonna be next shift.

Continuity goes a long way in sports and Torts just completely disregards it. When you watch other teams that have some set lines you can see the chemistry. Boston has had the same 2 top lines for over 2 years now. I wouldn't say those 6 are more talented than ours.

I'll give him the fact that it worked last year but besides that his track record here isn't too impressive. Like others have said we only have so long with Lundqvist being the best in the world. The time is now and it shouldn't be surprising that a lot of us are worried that the window is going to close. Torts doesn't change and we haven't been winning so what are people supposed to think?

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03-15-2013, 03:36 PM
  #797
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It never ceases to amaze me that there are some Rangers fans who think that Sather deserves another opportunity to hire a new coach. 6th time is the charm is I guess...

If Torts gets fired, then Sather better be going along with him, otherwise it will just be more of the same.

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03-15-2013, 03:37 PM
  #798
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This season is a free pass for everyone in my book. No training camp, less than 50 games, high roster turnover. Seriously people expected instant chemistry? Add to that missing almost every star player on the team at one point in this shortened season. Add to that Brad Richards being Scott Gomez.

Well this is what you get when you add all of those things together. And none of those things are Torts fault. Blame Sather for not bringing in more depth if you're going to point fingers.

One more thing. Tort's personality is very extreme but people are confusing that with being stubborn or irrational. He knows how to bring along young talent. He criticizes anyone who is playing poorly and praises anyone who is playing well. He benches people when they need to be benched. He has his finger on the pulse of his players and knows how to get them going most of the time. I don't remember hearing Torts throw anyone under a bus.

The Torts the tyrant myth is getting old. Don't watch his :05 pressers if it bothers you so much.
He's called out his "top players" more than a handful of times this year. And his benchings are not equal. Miller turns the puck over almost every shift but Torts likes him so he plays. Krieder was sent down, Milelr should be too he's not ready.

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03-15-2013, 03:38 PM
  #799
Riverdale
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
It never ceases to amaze me that there are some Rangers fans who think that Sather deserves another opportunity to hire a new coach. 6th time is the charm is I guess...

If Torts gets fired, then Sather better be going along with him, otherwise it will just be more of the same.
I don't think anyone sees THAT happening

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03-15-2013, 03:40 PM
  #800
Bleed Ranger Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
It never ceases to amaze me that there are some Rangers fans who think that Sather deserves another opportunity to hire a new coach. 6th time is the charm is I guess...

If Torts gets fired, then Sather better be going along with him, otherwise it will just be more of the same.
Like when Vincent Gambini was taking the bar exam

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