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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-15-2013, 01:14 PM
  #276
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
How exactly did he excel? One PPG season in a decade? On a team with more offense and more talent than anyone else over that time-span?
By being the best overall playoff performer on a team that won 3 Cups in a short period of time, and was a New Jersey and Colorado away from winning 2 more. If Fedorov wasn't a good playoff performer on the Red Wings, THEN WHO WAS? Funny that the Red Wings could have so much team success without individual performers, eh?

The Bowman Wings didn't hurt their individual players' stats quite as much as the Lemaire/Burns Devils or the Hitchcock Stars, but they weren't that far behind.

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And don't tell me he played defense. Its great that he played defense, but if you're arguing he's one of the top five players during that exact era, or better than a guy who set a record that will never be broken and who was one of the dominant offensive players of the era. . . that's not dominating. That's Rod Brind'Amour.
I'll just have to point you to vadim's post about Fedorov dominating the entire ice surface in a way that few others did.
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Fedorov didn't play against other teams' top checking lines.
Yes he did - as much as any other Red Wing.

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Fedorov wasn't the sole reason his team was ever in games.
Ah, the old martyr argument. Playing on a team capable of winning Cups does not make a player worse.

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Fedorov was almost never the underdog in a playoff series. Fedorov never played a game of his Detroit career without at least one Hall-of-Fame puck-moving defenseman on the ice with him.
I don't think any defenseman on Detroit was at a Hall of Fame level in 1997. But even if they were, so what?

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1) Fedorov

Amongst the many crazy things being said in this thread. . . the fact that we are going to try and argue that playing on the 1990s Red Wings did not benefit Fedorov is probably number one.
Of course, playing on the Red Wings benefited him in some ways. But it absolutely hurt his regular season statistics, and for some reason, some posters thing regular season point totals are all that matters.

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I watched him. He simply was not as good as he is being portrayed.
I was talking to ushvinder who was too young to see Fedorov, except on video after the fact.

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03-15-2013, 01:15 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Regarding Selanne -- if he was on the Detroit team in the 90s, I can see him as another Ray Sheppard or Dino Ciccarelli.
And this is why the Selanne threads get hostile, vadim sharifijanov.

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03-15-2013, 01:20 PM
  #278
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Actually, it's pretty amazing the Wings won anything going by the recollection of some. Seems like every player on the team is overrated and benefited from being on a great team. At some point you gave to stop and ask how exactly did they win so much with all the overrated Rod Brind'amours?

Perhaps they were all a product of Lidstrom? No that can't be right because he benefits from the amazing center depth full of Selke winners?

Perhaps it was the amazing Selke worthy high scoring centers? No they benefitted from the great Lidstrom and other Norris worthy PMDs?

Perhaps it was all goaltending? Nah we all know Osgood was a product that of the team and Hasek was past his peak when he arrived.

Perhaps it was all Scotty Bowman? No way, anyone could win with that collection of talent!

Wait, wait I got it! It was all the grind line. How could it be anymore obvious? Grind line for hall of fame!

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03-15-2013, 01:21 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Actually, it's pretty amazing the Wings won anything going by the recollection of some. Seems like every player on the team is overrated and benefited from being on a great team. At some point you gave to stop and ask how exactly did they win so much with all the overrated Rod Brind'amours?

Perhaps they were all a product of Lidstrom? No that can't be right because he benefits from the amazing center depth full of Selke winners?

Perhaps it was the amazing Selke worthy high scoring centers? No they benefitted from the great Lidstrom and other Norris worthy PMDs?

Perhaps it was all goaltending? Nah we all know Osgood was a product that of the team and Hasek was past his peak when he arrived.

Perhaps it was all Scotty Bowman? No way, anyone could win with that collection of talent!

Wait, wait I got it! It was all the grind line. How could it be anymore obvious? Grind line for hall of fame!
At least you don't have to deal with people calling all your players who won 3 Cups for you "a product of the system!"

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03-15-2013, 01:21 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
By being the best overall playoff performer on a team that won 3 Cups in a short period of time, and was a New Jersey and Colorado away from winning 2 more. If Fedorov wasn't a good playoff performer on the Red Wings, THEN WHO WAS? Funny that the Red Wings could have so much team success without individual performers, eh?
He WAS a good playoff performer (better than Yzerman, better than Shanahan). No one is saying he wasn't. He just wasn't some world-beater like the way people often claim, and certainly not to the extent to overcome the difference in the comparison of Selanne's 2nd-7th best seasons and Fedorov's 2nd-7th best seasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe, in response to "Fedorov didn't play against other teams' top checking lines."
Yes he did - as much as any other Red Wing.
Mostly Shanahan after they picked him up, but then again, if he was playing against teams' top checking lines, who was he simultaneously shutting down defensively?

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03-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
By being the best overall playoff performer on a team that won 3 Cups in a short period of time, and was a New Jersey and Colorado away from winning 2 more. If Fedorov wasn't a good playoff performer on the Red Wings, THEN WHO WAS? Funny that the Red Wings could have so much team success without individual performers, eh?

The Bowman Wings didn't hurt their individual players' stats quite as much as the Lemaire/Burns Devils or the Hitchcock Stars, but they weren't that far behind.



I'll just have to point you to vadim's post about Fedorov dominating the entire ice surface in a way that few others did.

Yes he did - as much as any other Red Wing.



Ah, the old martyr argument. Playing on a team capable of winning Cups does not make a player worse.



I don't think any defenseman on Detroit was at a Hall of Fame level in 1997. But even if they were, so what?



Of course, playing on the Red Wings benefited him in some ways. But it absolutely hurt his regular season statistics, and for some reason, some posters thing regular season point totals are all that matters.



I was talking to ushvinder who was too young to see Fedorov, except on video after the fact.
Yes because watching games of him on video during his 15 minute prime isn't enough, I have to have been an actual teenager who idolized him like you so the nostalgia kicks in. However, I was old enough to watch him post mediocre season after mediocre season in an era that should have been his prime.

Selanne will win any comparison to other two way players with the same offense, but he must bow down to the might fedorov and his 4 seasons as a top 15 scorer. I dont care how good his defense was, when your offense is that mediocre it really doesnt matter. Fedorov succeed by coasting on stacked teams, he is not the ideal franchise player like he's made out to be.

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03-15-2013, 01:26 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Actually, it's pretty amazing the Wings won anything going by the recollection of some. Seems like every player on the team is overrated and benefited from being on a great team. At some point you gave to stop and ask how exactly did they win so much with all the overrated Rod Brind'amours?

Perhaps they were all a product of Lidstrom? No that can't be right because he benefits from the amazing center depth full of Selke winners?

Perhaps it was the amazing Selke worthy high scoring centers? No they benefitted from the great Lidstrom and other Norris worthy PMDs?

Perhaps it was all goaltending? Nah we all know Osgood was a product that of the team and Hasek was past his peak when he arrived.

Perhaps it was all Scotty Bowman? No way, anyone could win with that collection of talent!

Wait, wait I got it! It was all the grind line. How could it be anymore obvious? Grind line for hall of fame!
Scotty Bowman was the best of all-time. Nicklas Lidstrom was the best of his era. Steve Yzerman had intermittent explosions of awesomeness. Fedorov was awesome and had white skates. Shanahan is a beast. Larionov was their depth player. Osgood should be in the Hall of Fame.

Don't pretend I'm insulting Detroit.

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03-15-2013, 01:28 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes and Stevie Y was a habitual PPG player, if we take out the beginning of his career as well.
What part of Yzerman's early career wasn't PPG? He was scoring in the high 80s his first couple seasons, and then hit 102 in 64 games.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Fedorov has the better peak but its just sad how biased this forum is in favour red wings players.
Yeah, I mean just look at how so many people rank Henrik Zetterberg among the top five centers in the West this year. He's only third in the conference in scoring (behind Kane and Getzlaf) and led the conference much of the year, and has been playing Selke-level defense.

Instead, a significant number of people consider Sedin, Thornton, Kopitar and Toews better, as well as the obvious Datsyuk (who's right behind him in scoring and also playing excellent defense). I've even seen Alexander Steen ranked ahead of him.

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Selanne played for horrible teams, Fedorov played on loaded teams. I'm sorry but 80% of a forward's responsibility is to score and based on overall career, Selanne dusts him away in this category.
Ok, so what's your opinion on LaFontaine v. Messier?

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Then compare the teams that they were playing on and Selanne's offense was vastly more valuable than Fedorov's. Sergie gets my vote for most overrated player on hfboards.
Did Forsberg cease to exist?

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People here are too ignorant to realize that the defensive impact of a forward is nothing compared to the defensive impact of an actual defensive defenseman.
You don't seem to grasp how effective Fedorov was defensively. During the mid to late 90s, Detroit's best defensive skaters were Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Fedorov, and Yzerman in that order. This is on a team that had Slava Fetisov, Bob Rouse, Mike Ramsey, and Jamie Macoun.

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Selanne will be ranked ahead of the likes of gilmour, modano and francis, but the red wings homer site just cant acknowledge that Teemu has clearly surpassed thier golden pretty boy.
Do you seriously think that those three were anywhere near as good as Fedorov? In Modano's peak years in the late 90s, he was close to Fedorov's level at the time. Gilmour may have won a Selke, but that only happened because he had an offensive surge; he never received more than peripheral votes outside of 1993 and 1994, when he was a top scorer. The same can be said of Francis' 1995 and 1996. He was very good defensively, but I would argue that he wasn't Selke-worthy. Not over Fedorov, Yzerman, or Tikkanen, among others.

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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, Kariya being better than Selanne in their joined years is highly debatable and i would think Selanne has the better case. Helthier, higher production.
For the Jets team, Selanne was the slam dunk best player on that team. No contest.

BTW, in which years Fedorov was the best forward in his team?

For consecutive 5 years Selanne finished top-10 in points every year.

7th
2nd next to Lemieux
8th (2nd in PPG when he decided to stop playing after the Ducks were out of Playoffs)
2nd Next to Jagr
5th

Fedorov has 2 top-10 finishes in '93-'94 and '95-'96 in 2nd and 9th places.


That is not comparable offensive production. Is the gap in overall play enough to bring Fedorov to the top of this comparison? I sure as hell am not sure.
Fedorov was an elite defensive forward. Arguably the best defensive forward in every year from 1992 to 1998; I'd have given him the Selke in four of those years, five had he not held out in 1997-98.

Important to remember: Every goal prevented is worth a goal scored. No, a defensive forward's not out there magically preventing goals every single shift, or necessarily every game. But an offensive forward's not scoring them every game either. Look at the gap between Fedorov and Selanne offensively. Consider Fedorov's defensive play; did he prevent at least that many goals? What about linemates? How much of a factor were linemates on their production? In what role were they playing, and against what players from the opposing teams; in other words, how easy was it for them to score?

All of these things point to advantage: Fedorov. Worse linemates, played in a defensive role, and he likely prevented a fair bit more goals than the gap in points - even removing any defensive work Selanne performed.

To my eye, Fedorov comes out ahead.

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03-15-2013, 01:29 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Scotty Bowman was the best of all-time. Nicklas Lidstrom was the best of his era. Steve Yzerman had intermittent explosions of awesomeness. Fedorov was awesome and had white skates. Shanahan is a beast. Larionov was their depth player. Osgood should be in the Hall of Fame.

Don't pretend I'm insulting Detroit.
I didn't call you out by name, nor did I insinuate anyone was actually insulting Detroit. I've read enough to know you don't judge on bias or anything of the sort.

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03-15-2013, 01:32 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Actually, it's pretty amazing the Wings won anything going by the recollection of some. Seems like every player on the team is overrated and benefited from being on a great team.
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
At least you don't have to deal with people calling all your players who won 3 Cups for you "a product of the system!"
No no no, at least you're not Leafs fans.

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03-15-2013, 01:33 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
By being the best overall playoff performer on a team that won 3 Cups in a short period of time, and was a New Jersey and Colorado away from winning 2 more. If Fedorov wasn't a good playoff performer on the Red Wings, THEN WHO WAS?
His performances were good, but overrated. I actually addressed that but it was ignored. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=233

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Funny that the Red Wings could have so much team success without individual performers, eh?
The only people making that argument are the pro-Fedorov crowd who want to pretend that playing with Coffey, Yzerman, Kozlov, Lidstrom, etc magically did not benefit Fedorov in any way.

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The Bowman Wings didn't hurt their individual players' stats quite as much as the Lemaire/Burns Devils or the Hitchcock Stars, but they weren't that far behind.
And again. Either Fedorov was a magical two-way player or he wasn't. If he WAS, then explain to me how having to play defense hurt his offense so much? That's not a all-time two-way player. That's a good offensive player, who became a 60-point man because he had to check.

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I'll just have to point you to vadim's post about Fedorov dominating the entire ice surface in a way that few others did.
That post had nothing in the way of ACTUAL fact.

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Yes he did - as much as any other Red Wing.
Ohhh, really??? So if he was always facing these checking lines, then when was he himself checking other team's top lines??? After all, isn't that what we're always told? Fedorov's offense suffered because he was used to match up against other team's top players? You can't have it both ways. Either he was playing against top lines, or he was playing against third lines.

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Ah, the old martyr argument. Playing on a team capable of winning Cups does not make a player worse.
No, according to you, playing on an eigth place team does.

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I don't think any defenseman on Detroit was at a Hall of Fame level in 1997. But even if they were, so what?
You were the one suggesting all the ways poor Sergei had it tough in Detroit.

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Of course, playing on the Red Wings benefited him in some ways. But it absolutely hurt his regular season statistics, and for some reason, some posters thing regular season point totals are all that matters.
No, apparently the only things that matter are: one peak season and an opportunity to rack up decent but not amazing points over four extended, consecutive playoff runs.

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03-15-2013, 01:38 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
At least you don't have to deal with people calling all your players who won 3 Cups for you "a product of the system!"


Don't forget the part where you guys still use the trap!

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03-15-2013, 01:51 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
It's a wonder they lost at all from 1992-2003, given the fact that they had the fifth-best player of all-time*, the best defenseman of all-time*, and a player with a peak season that rivals that of Gretzky and Lemieux*.
It's a wonder that the Oilers ever lost, given that they had two of the top seven centers of all-time, the 12th/13th-best RW, the 11th/12th-best defenseman ever, and the 25th-best goalie. And all but Fuhr are in HF's top 70. Detroit has Yzerman (13th C) and Lidstrom (6th D).

All rankings, except for Fuhr, were taken from HF's top 70.

Also... who ranked Lidstrom as the best of all-time?

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03-15-2013, 01:52 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Missed 1996-97, 1997-98, and 1998-99, eh?
Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lidstrom, MacInnis, Leetch, arguably Bourque. All players I would take over Selanne who were active during that time period (obviously Lemieux was out for the last two, but point stands). As I said above: at the time, I didn't think Selanne was even the best player on his team, and I was not alone in that sentiment, though some disagreed.

Fedorov had a couple of truly incredible years, where he executed at the level of the #2 and #3 guys on that list, who were also at their peak at the time. Aside from that, his career doesn't compare with Selanne's. That's all I'm saying.


Last edited by RewBicks: 03-15-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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03-15-2013, 01:57 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, so what's your opinion on LaFontaine v. Messier?
Lafontaine has two top ten scoring finishes. Messier has seven. And I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to argue that Messier doesn't win any intangibles/two-way play/clutch play/etc comparisons going away. Its kind of the opposite of Fedorov vs Selanne, isn't it?

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Did Forsberg cease to exist?
Now that would be a great debate: who's more overrated on HFboards? Fedorov or Forsberg?

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Do you seriously think that those three were anywhere near as good as Fedorov? In Modano's peak years in the late 90s, he was close to Fedorov's level at the time. Gilmour may have won a Selke, but that only happened because he had an offensive surge;
I think you underrate Gilmour's defensive resume. He broke in with St Louis Blues as defensive center, and wasn't viewed as an offensive option until his third-year playoffs when he broke out in a big way. Gilmour is a legit two-way guy.

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he never received more than peripheral votes outside of 1993 and 1994, when he was a top scorer. The same can be said of Francis' 1995 and 1996. He was very good defensively, but I would argue that he wasn't Selke-worthy. Not over Fedorov, Yzerman, or Tikkanen, among others.

Fedorov was an elite defensive forward. Arguably the best defensive forward in every year from 1992 to 1998; I'd have given him the Selke in four of those years, five had he not held out in 1997-98.
'No one has ever deserved the Selke, except for the Red Wing winners'.

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03-15-2013, 02:01 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
The only people making that argument are the pro-Fedorov crowd who want to pretend that playing with Coffey, Yzerman, Kozlov, Lidstrom, etc magically did not benefit Fedorov in any way.
As I have noted before, Fedorov was rarely on the ice with Yzerman, or Shanahan for that matter.

In contrast, Selanne was always on the ice with Zhamnov/Tkachuk, and then later Kariya/Rucchin, followed later in his career by Ryan/Koivu. That's a huge difference in quality of linemates from Kozlov/Brown. Selanne also had (over the years) Housley, B.Mironov, Numminen, D.Mironov, Olausson, and Tverdovsky. It's not as if he was lacking in at least one offensively skilled defenseman at a given time.

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03-15-2013, 02:15 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
As I have noted before, Fedorov was rarely on the ice with Yzerman, or Shanahan for that matter.

In contrast, Selanne was always on the ice with Zhamnov/Tkachuk, and then later Kariya/Rucchin, followed later in his career by Ryan/Koivu. That's a huge difference in quality of linemates from Kozlov/Brown. Selanne also had (over the years) Housley, B.Mironov, Numminen, D.Mironov, Olausson, and Tverdovsky. It's not as if he was lacking in at least one offensively skilled defenseman at a given time.
Who was Selanne on the ice with in 1998? When has fedorov played on a team that poor?

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03-15-2013, 02:17 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Also... who ranked Lidstrom as the best of all-time?
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1118875

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Now that would be a great debate: who's more overrated on HFboards? Fedorov or Forsberg?
Add Lindros.

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03-15-2013, 02:19 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
His performances were good, but overrated. I actually addressed that but it was ignored. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=233
I read that post, and I didn't ignore, it I just think it's a terrible abuse of statistics. Playoff point-per-game rankings that don't take games played, style of play, or opponents into account? Seriously?

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The only people making that argument are the pro-Fedorov crowd who want to pretend that playing with Coffey, Yzerman, Kozlov, Lidstrom, etc magically did not benefit Fedorov in any way.
Obviously, it helped him to more team success. It also let him coast in the regular season with no ill effects on his team after 1996.

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And again. Either Fedorov was a magical two-way player or he wasn't. If he WAS, then explain to me how having to play defense hurt his offense so much? That's not a all-time two-way player. That's a good offensive player, who became a 60-point man because he had to check.
Seriously? Fedorov was trained in the Soviet system as a defense-first player and came into the NHL a Selke-calibre forward. Steve Yzerman had to learn how to play defense - Fedorov did not.

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That post had nothing in the way of ACTUAL fact.
You disagree with it (and apparently the majority of other people who saw Fedorov play), so it's devoid of fact?

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Ohhh, really??? So if he was always facing these checking lines, then when was he himself checking other team's top lines??? After all, isn't that what we're always told? Fedorov's offense suffered because he was used to match up against other team's top players? You can't have it both ways. Either he was playing against top lines, or he was playing against third lines.
Neither of your "either or" scenarios is correct. Scottie Bowman rolled 4 lines and wanted all of them to be defensively responsible so they could play against anyone, but he preferred to go power vs. power. IIRC, Yzerman usually played against Sakic and Fedorov usually played against Forsberg.


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No, according to you, playing on an eigth place team does.
Nope.

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You were the one suggesting all the ways poor Sergei had it tough in Detroit.
Depends on your definition of "tough." If he played for a less stacked team, he'd put up more regular season points and have less playoff success. I mean, do you disagree with the idea that he basically stopped trying in the regular season after 1996 but maintained the level of play that he had shown previously (in both the regular season and playoffs) through the entire Red Wings run? Given the team success that followed after 1996, it's hard to say he made the wrong choice.

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No apparently the only things that matter are: one peak season and an opportunity to rack up decent but not amazing points over four extended, consecutive playoff runs.
I'll ask for a second time: If Sergei Fedorov wasn't a great playoff performer, then who was better on the 1995-2002 Red Wings?

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03-15-2013, 02:19 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
As I have noted before, Fedorov was rarely on the ice with Yzerman, or Shanahan for that matter.
Which means easier matchups for offense (like Sakic saw when defenders matched up against Forsberg specifically).

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03-15-2013, 02:21 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Who was Selanne on the ice with in 1998? When has fedorov played on a team that poor?
This would be a compelling argument if Selanne actually carried that team anywhere - instead they missed the playoffs.

Listen, I don't hold it against Selanne that he missed the playoffs that year, but why do you want to give him extra credit for playing on a bad team that didn't go anywhere?

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03-15-2013, 02:23 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Which means easier matchups for offense (like Sakic saw when defenders matched up against Forsberg specifically).
There is a lot of theoretical talk about how playing 1b to Yzerman's 1a affected Fedorov - but I prefer to go with what actually happened in real life - and it seems to me that Fedorov scored more points when Yzerman was injured.

I mean, you see it all the time - After 1996, Forsberg and Sakic basically alternated great seasons; when one of Crosby or Malkin plays like the best player in the league, the other one of the pair seems to suffer statistically.

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03-15-2013, 02:28 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This would be a compelling argument if Selanne actually carried that team anywhere - instead they missed the playoffs.

Listen, I don't hold it against Selanne that he missed the playoffs that year, but why do you want to give him extra credit for playing on a bad team that didn't go anywhere?
Maybe that has to do with the fact that they had no depth and mediocre defense/goal tending? You can pretend Fedorov would put up top 5 scoring finishes if hes stuck in that situation, I'll take an educated guess and say his 1994 season was an outlier.

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03-15-2013, 02:32 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This would be a compelling argument if Selanne actually carried that team anywhere - instead they missed the playoffs.
It only counts if they make the playoffs? He took a team that should have been as bad as the Tampa Bay Lightning (44 points) and had them competing for the playoffs until April 9th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Listen, I don't hold it against Selanne that he missed the playoffs that year, but why do you want to give him extra credit for playing on a bad team that didn't go anywhere?
He's not getting extra credit; you specifically challenged that he was never lacking an offensively-skilled linemate/defenseman. He led the league in even-strength goals and points in a season where he had one for only 22 games but missed nine games himself.

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03-15-2013, 02:35 PM
  #300
Syckle78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This would be a compelling argument if Selanne actually carried that team anywhere - instead they missed the playoffs.

Listen, I don't hold it against Selanne that he missed the playoffs that year, but why do you want to give him extra credit for playing on a bad team that didn't go anywhere?
I don't understand either why players get extra credit offensively on bad teams. Especially when they aren't defensively oriented teams playing a system that snuff out offense.

Selanne certainly didn't play on such teams under those conditions. His teams won and lost based on their top line players offensive games.


Yea he may not have been surrounded by a ton of talent. But the first unit wasn't lacking and they had one job to do. Which was to score goals. You don't get extra bonus points for that.

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