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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:36 PM
  #301
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He WAS a good playoff performer (better than Yzerman, better than Shanahan). No one is saying he wasn't. He just wasn't some world-beater like the way people often claim, and certainly not to the extent to overcome the difference in the comparison of Selanne's 2nd-7th best seasons and Fedorov's 2nd-7th best seasons.
Okay, well it seems like you have a firm grasp of reality; we just differ in judgments. I do think that Fedorov was pretty unique in that he basically stopped trying in the regular season after 1996 and that his level of play in the playoffs after then was a better judge of how good good he actually was. Basically, he maintained the level of regular season play he had from 1994-1996 until 2002 at least; he just didn't show it in the regular season because there was literally no reason to bother trying - he already had his money, and his team was almost guaranteed to win the division even if he coasted. But in the playoffs, where it mattered, he showed his true talent level, one that he had shown in the regular season for 3 years.

But I understand that some people want to be merciless towards players who coast in the regular season (even if IMO, he didn't actually hurt his team by doing so).

I do take issue with people trying to say that Fedorov's playoffs are overrated; I do not think they are. (Well, maybe to people who like to pretend he was 80s Gretzkzy or 1991/1992 Lemieux, but does anyone take those people seriously?)


Quote:
Mostly Shanahan after they picked him up, but then again, if he was playing against teams' top checking lines, who was he simultaneously shutting down defensively?
I might have misread the post as asking whether Fedorov played top lines, not top checking lines. It's an open question whether played as a 2nd line center under Yzerman would help or hurt a player's stats, but as I said in the post above, I think the evidence leans towards it hurting his stats.

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03-15-2013, 02:40 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Maybe that has to do with the fact that they had no depth and mediocre defense/goal tending? You can pretend Fedorov would put up top 5 scoring finishes if hes stuck in that situation, I'll take an educated guess and say his 1994 season was an outlier.
What does your educated guess tell you about Selanne om the Wings at that time? How many points does he put up not being able to focus entirely on offense? What does he do with inferior linemates? Getting less ice time because you have two top lines? Less prime pp minutes?

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:45 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
As I have noted before, Fedorov was rarely on the ice with Yzerman, or Shanahan for that matter.

In contrast, Selanne was always on the ice with Zhamnov/Tkachuk, and then later Kariya/Rucchin, followed later in his career by Ryan/Koivu. That's a huge difference in quality of linemates from Kozlov/Brown. Selanne also had (over the years) Housley, B.Mironov, Numminen, D.Mironov, Olausson, and Tverdovsky. It's not as if he was lacking in at least one offensively skilled defenseman at a given time.
In recent years Selanne has also played with the following superstars:

Andrew Ebbett
Erik Christensen
Ryan carter
Brandon McMillan
Dan Sexton
Evgeny Artyukhin

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:59 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
What does your educated guess tell you about Selanne om the Wings at that time? How many points does he put up not being able to focus entirely on offense? What does he do with inferior linemates? Getting less ice time because you have two top lines? Less prime pp minutes?
I would say Selanne would fare better as a winger on detriot than fedorov would as a center on a bad team. If shanahan can have productive seasons offensively with detriot, than selanne definetly would since he had far more offensive talent.

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Old
03-15-2013, 03:01 PM
  #305
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I read that post, and I didn't ignore, it I just think it's a terrible abuse of statistics. Playoff point-per-game rankings that don't take games played, style of play, or opponents into account? Seriously?
I took games played into account. Do you seriously want to take opponents into account? Did Fedorov ever go into a series as the lower-seed? Secondly, if he's a great as this thread makes him out to be, he should have no problem outperforming a Shayne Corson or a Rod Brind'Amour regardless of circumstances.

And actually, I don't even object to you taking issue with that analysis. But if that's the case, let's also acknowledge that those four consecutive 20-point runs have as much to do with circumstances and opportunity as they do with Fedorov being an elite playoff performer. During those four years, he was the best offensive player through four rounds twice: 1995 against a trap-centric Devils team, and 1998 against a 'miracle-run' Captials team. Any time a team pushed into the finals with a legit offensive star, that star ooutperformed Fedorov offensively by a significant degree (Sakic in 1996, Lindros in 1997). Certainly he deserves credit for outperforming, say, Yzerman on his own team but none of those years represent a all-time type playoff run. They were all good, perhaps bordering on great, but I take issue with looking at that particular stat in a vacumn and proclaiming him the most valuable player of the 90s or something.

And again; I acknowledge that Fedorov played defense. But he can't have it both ways.

Quote:
Obviously, it helped him to more team success. It also let him coast in the regular season with no ill effects on his team after 1996.
Sooo. . . we should give Fedorov credit for something he might have been able to accomplish if he had tried? Really? There are plenty of players who performed well in the regular season, and also excelled in the playoffs. If Fedorov couldn't do that, that's fine. . .but let's rank him accordingly.

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Seriously? Fedorov was trained in the Soviet system as a defense-first player and came into the NHL a Selke-calibre forward. Steve Yzerman had to learn how to play defense - Fedorov did not.
You are missing the point. Either Fedorov was a magical two-way player or he wasn't. If he WAS, then explain to me how having to play defense hurt his offense so much? Certain people love to think of Fedorov as this player who combined top-ten offense with Selke defense. . .and once someone points that he was rarely ever a top-ten offensive player, they answer with, 'yeah, but he played defense!'. . .so that's NOT a top-ten offensive player with Selke defense, is it? That's top-twenty offensive player with Selke defense, isn't it?

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You disagree with it (and apparently the majority of other people who saw Fedorov play), so it's devoid of fact?
No, its devoid of fact because it is objectively devoid of fact.

If I say, 'Alex Tanguay is an amazing player. Best I've ever seen'. That's not fact. That's opinion. That tells me nothing about Alex Tanguay. I see a lot of opinion in favour of Fedorov here, and not much fact.

Quote:
Neither of your "either or" scenarios is correct. Scottie Bowman rolled 4 lines and wanted all of them to be defensively responsible so they could play against anyone, but he preferred to go power vs. power. IIRC, Yzerman usually played against Sakic and Fedorov usually played against Forsberg.
So if he rolled all four lines. . . would it be correct to assume that every center had equal opportunities offensively then?

Quote:
Depends on your definition of "tough." If he played for a less stacked team, he'd put up more regular season points and have less playoff success. I mean, do you disagree with the idea that he basically stopped trying in the regular season after 1996 but maintained the level of play that he had shown previously (in both the regular season and playoffs) through the entire Red Wings run? Given the team success that followed after 1996, it's hard to say he made the wrong choice.
You would think his offensive numbers would have jumped up, then, when he left Detroit, wouldn't you?

Quote:
I'll ask for a second time: If Sergei Fedorov wasn't a great playoff performer, then who was better on the 1995-2002 Red Wings?
He was a FINE playoff performer. I have never said differently. He's just seriously overrated there.

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Old
03-15-2013, 03:21 PM
  #306
Yamaguchi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I would say Selanne would fare better as a winger on detriot than fedorov would as a center on a bad team. If shanahan can have productive seasons offensively with detriot, than selanne definetly would since he had far more offensive talent.

You are just being assumptive.

And what is detriot?

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Old
03-15-2013, 03:23 PM
  #307
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Okay, well it seems like you have a firm grasp of reality; we just differ in judgments.
In a thread about my favorite player, I consider that a compliment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
What does your educated guess tell you about Selanne om the Wings at that time? How many points does he put up not being able to focus entirely on offense? What does he do with inferior linemates? Getting less ice time because you have two top lines? Less prime pp minutes?
Selanne only saw two-and-a-half more minutes per game than Fedorov in 1998 (and less powerplay time), and only one minute more per game than Yzerman in 1999. I'm not seeing how it would be too jarring with a less-focused defensive matchup, especially with more passing options on the powerplay (which killed Selanne's production in 1998).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
During those four years, he was the best offensive player through four rounds twice: 1995 against a trap-centric Devils team, and 1998 against a 'miracle-run' Captials team.
I'd give Yzerman that one.

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Old
03-15-2013, 04:15 PM
  #308
DisgruntledGoat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'd give Yzerman that one.
Well, I want to be as generous to Fedorov as I can be, but yeah, I probably take Yzerman's 1998 run over Fedorov's, too.

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:49 PM
  #309
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Lot of people tend to resort in number crunching when judging players in historical context, and while that's often reasonable approach into North American sports (as opposed to global sports like soccer), on a few occasions the eye test and the peculiarities of a certain players are more appropriate when ranking them.

IMO, this especially applies to Fedorov. Like others have said, in his prime years he knew he didn't have to put in the 100% effort for his team in the regular season for them to be be successful. Bowman tried to ignite him sometimes (playing him in defence), but that doesn't work for every player and eventually it comes down to player what he is willing to sacrifice.

Fedorov "chose" to let lesser players shine in less relevant games, and only showed up to his true ability when it mattered most. In the end, he didn't care about where he would rank in the history of the NHL, nor about what some foreign fans would think of him. He would make his millions and could compete with the best when he wanted to. Not that he wasn't competitive, but he could afford to choose his moments, he was just that good.

I understand a lot of Canadian hockey fans historically don't appreciate when someone isn't giving his 100% every night, and want to judge players based on that. That's all fine and well, but it doesn't necessary tell how good player actually was when at his best. To use a soccer example, former Brazilian 90's great Romario (World cup winner and Barcelona great) pretty much didn't care about training or his teammates or coaches, he just chose to concentrate on scoring.

Great managers and GM's are able to accomodate these kind of players into a team for a maximum benefit, getting the humble water carriers and work horses and sometimes fellow stars to shoulder the load for these stars. It's a team sport after all, and Detroit excelled as a team with Fedorov allowed to do his thing (until the aprupt end, at least).

For me, in his peak/prime Fedorov was quite a bit better than Selšnne, and IMO he's the third best center since I've started watching the sports (since 1980), only behind Gretzky and Lemieux, and I'd even say he's more complete player than either of them (obviously those two eclipse Fedorov with their superior offense). Though I'd also say that Lindros was (notably) better than Fedorov for a while, but that's a subject for another thread.

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:52 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Ah yes, the two classic Fedorov defenses:

1. 'You just don't get it. . .he was really good!'

2. 'Ignore his numbers. . . he played defense!'

1. If we're all so dumb that we can't grasp the brilliance that was Sergei Fedorov. . .why don't you explain it to us? Because there has been a ton of stats and facts laid out in this thread that have all been ignored in favour of responses of, 'you just don't get it. . . he was really good!'.
Simple answer? Those who watched him and can recall how it was being discussed at the time are always having to come back to that in the face of those who seem to be 100% reliant on their ability to identify statistical trends from spreadsheets in hindsight, or render judgement on whatever fraction of a percent of Fedorov's career exists in the youtube archives - also the same people to be quickest to reduce anecdotal contributions to zero value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
2. And here comes the circular logic again. I posted the PPG stuff because the constant harping on what an accomplishment his four 20-point playoffs were. . .and as soon as I do that? The debate switches to how good he was defensively. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: either he was this brilliant two-way player or he wasn't. And if he was, then why did playing defense mean his offense dipped to second-line production?
This has actually all been explained in this thread already, by one person or another, on one page and/or another, I'm absolutely certain.

But in any event, I know everyone hates a lazy toss out of the +/- stat, but he did lead the entire 1990s in +/- to the best of my knowledge, and helped produce consecutive championships. How can you be so bothered by the intricacies in the offensive statistical trends when the results of the balance speak loudly enough before even getting into observation and skill set dissection? He played however and whenever his team/coach needed/asked him to play (hold out aside, hehe), and it's not like many here didn't see more than enough of the best of what he could do both offensively AND/or defensively to make a judgment on his "overall" calibre or skills as a hockey player.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:09 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Misleader View Post
In recent years Selanne has also played with the following superstars:

Andrew Ebbett
Erik Christensen
Ryan carter
Brandon McMillan
Dan Sexton
Evgeny Artyukhin
True to your username, lol, in recent years (starting with the most recent), I see scoring logs that connect him to the names Getzlaf (on the powerplay), Ryan (11 scoring plays this year alone; mostly even strength), Koivu, Perry (I trust I don't have to expand on those), Kunitz, hehe, Visnovsky, Niedermayer, Pronger (defense, obviously).

All names taken from Selanne's scoring logs between '07/08 and '12/13 (past "5" seasons), and seemingly representative of the majority of those figuring into his points (quick visual inspection - not actually counted; freely available for anyone to view/refresh their memory on hockeyreference, however).

When you see that list, it's easy to forget about yours.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:13 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misleader View Post
In recent years Selanne has also played with the following superstars:

Andrew Ebbett
Erik Christensen
Ryan carter
Brandon McMillan
Dan Sexton
Evgeny Artyukhin


A beautiful surname for a superstar.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:15 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Which means easier matchups for offense (like Sakic saw when defenders matched up against Forsberg specifically).
Except Sakic played on the PP with Forsberg.

YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1992-93Mario LemieuxC60961.60
1992-93Steve YzermanC84871.04
1992-93Alexander MogilnyR77791.03
1992-93Pat LaFontaineC84830.99
1992-93Teemu SelanneR84830.99
1992-93Kevin StevensL72670.93
1992-93Adam OatesC84780.93
1992-93Luc RobitailleL84760.90
1992-93Jaromir JagrR81710.88
1992-93Wayne GretzkyC45380.84
1992-93Pavel BureR83680.82
1992-93Mark MessierC75570.76
1992-93Doug GilmourC83630.76
1992-93Alexei ZhamnovC68490.72
1992-93Dino CiccarelliR82530.65
1992-93Sergei FedorovC73470.64
1992-93Paul Coffey (LA)D50270.54
1992-93Phil HousleyD80410.51
1992-93Keith TkachukC83330.40
1992-93Paul Coffey (DET)D3090.30
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1993-94Eric LindrosC65671.03
1993-94Mario LemieuxC22221.00
1993-94Sergei FedorovC82810.99
1993-94Cam NeelyR49470.96
1993-94Steve YzermanC58520.90
1993-94Jaromir JagrR80700.88
1993-94Adam OatesC77620.81
1993-94Wayne GretzkyC81620.77
1993-94Pavel BureR76580.76
1993-94Doug GilmourC83600.72
1993-94Ray SheppardR82570.70
1993-94Alexei ZhamnovC61420.69
1993-94Keith PrimeauL78530.68
1993-94Joe SakicC84570.68
1993-94Valeri KamenskyL76510.67
1993-94Slava KozlovL77510.66
1993-94Ron FrancisC82520.63
1993-94Mats SundinC84530.63
1993-94Teemu SelanneR51310.61
1993-94Dino CiccarelliR66370.56
1993-94Paul CoffeyD80410.51
1993-94Keith TkachukC84390.46
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1994-95Eric LindrosC46461.00
1994-95Mikael RenbergR47450.96
1994-95Jaromir JagrR48450.94
1994-95Ron FrancisC44370.84
1994-95Alexei ZhamnovC48400.83
1994-95John LeclairL46370.80
1994-95Joe SakicC47370.79
1994-95Sergei FedorovC42310.74
1994-95Luc RobitailleL46340.74
1994-95Peter ForsbergC47340.72
1994-95Keith PrimeauL45320.71
1994-95Mark MessierC46300.65
1994-95Owen NolanR46300.65
1994-95Ray SheppardR43270.63
1994-95Teemu SelanneR45280.62
1993-94Dino CiccarelliR42260.62
1994-95Keith TkachukC48290.60
1994-95Wendel ClarkL37220.59
1994-95Paul CoffeyD45260.58
1994-95Pavel BureR44240.55
1994-95Wayne GretzkyC48230.48
1994-95Slava KozlovL46210.46
1994-95Valeri KamenskyL40170.43
1994-95Steve YzermanC47190.40
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1995-96Jaromir JagrR82951.16
1995-96Mario LemieuxF70731.04
1995-96Eric LindrosC73751.03
1995-96Alexander MogilnyR79710.90
1995-96Peter ForsbergC82700.85
1995-96Sergei FedorovC78650.83
1995-96Ron FrancisC77630.82
1995-96Teemu Selanne (WPG)R51400.78
1995-96Mark MessierC74580.78
1995-96Joe SakicC82620.76
1995-96Teemu Selanne (TOT)R79590.75
1995-96Paul KariyaL82610.74
1995-96John LeclairL82600.73
1995-96Keith TkachukC76540.71
1995-96Teemu Selanne (ANA)R28190.68
1995-96Wayne GretzkyC80540.68
1995-96Claude LemieuxR79530.67
1995-96Slava KozlovL82530.65
1995-96Valeri KamenskyL81520.64
1995-96Pat LaFontaineC76490.64
1995-96Steve YzermanC80500.63
1995-96Igor LarionovC69430.62
1995-96Alexei ZhamnovC58310.53
1995-96Adam DeadmarshR78400.51
1995-96Keith PrimeauF74330.45
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1996-97Eric LindrosC52561.10
1996-97Jaromir JagrR63671.06
1996-97Mario LemieuxC76791.04
1996-97John LeclairL82810.99
1996-97Teemu SelanneR78760.97
1996-97Paul KariyaL69610.88
1996-97Peter ForsbergC65530.82
1996-97Wayne GretzkyC82660.80
1996-97Mark MessierC71550.77
1996-97Alexander MogilnyF76550.72
1996-97Steve YzermanC81570.70
1996-97Ron FrancisC81540.67
1996-97Pavel BureR63400.63
1996-97Sergei FedorovC74450.61
1996-97Brendan Shanahan (DET)L79480.61
1996-97Valeri KamenskyL68400.59
1996-97Igor LarionovC64350.55
1996-97Joe SakicC65350.54
1996-97Slava KozlovL75360.48
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1997-98Paul KariyaL22261.18
1997-98Teemu SelšnneR73670.92
1997-98Jaromir JagrR77640.83
1997-98John LeclairL82600.73
1997-98Eric LindrosC63460.73
1997-98Peter ForsbergC72510.71
1997-98Wayne GretzkyC82580.71
1997-98Pavel BureR82560.68
1997-98Ron FrancisC81550.68
1997-98Sergei FedorovF21130.62
1997-98Joe SakicC64340.53
1997-98Steve YzermanC75390.52
1997-98Valeri KamenskyL75390.52
1997-98Slava KozlovL80350.44
1997-98Claude LemieuxR78340.44
1997-98Brendan ShanahanL75320.43
1997-98Igor LarionovC69300.43
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1998-99Jaromir JagrR81821.01
1998-99Eric LindrosC71650.92
1998-99John LeclairL76650.86
1998-99Mats SundinC82670.82
1998-99Joe SakicC73560.77
1998-99Teemu SelanneR75530.71
1998-99Peter ForsbergC78540.69
1998-99Paul KariyaL82550.67
1998-99Steve YzermanC80470.59
1998-99Sergei FedorovC77420.55
1998-99Brendan ShanahanL81400.49
1998-99Igor LarionovC75370.49
1998-99Valeri KamenskyL65320.49
1998-99Wayne GretzkyC70320.46
1998-99Milan HejdukR82370.45
1998-99Slava KozlovL79350.44
1998-99Claude LemieuxR82250.30
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
1999-00Jaromir JagrR63671.06
1999-00Pavel BureR74720.97
1999-00Joe SakicC60580.97
1999-00Peter ForsbergC49360.73
1999-00Jeremy RoenickC75550.73
1999-00Tony AmonteR82590.72
1999-00Paul KariyaL74520.70
1999-00Mats SundinC73510.70
1999-00Teemu SelanneR79540.68
1999-00John LeclairL82530.65
1999-00Steve YzermanC78460.59
1999-00Brendan ShanahanL78460.59
1999-00Sergei FedorovC68380.56
1999-00Alex TanguayL76410.54
1999-00Milan HejdukR82440.54
1999-00Chris DruryF82440.54
1999-00Pat VerbeekR68350.51
1999-00Igor LarionovC79320.41
1999-00Slava KozlovL72280.39
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2000-01Mario LemieuxC43431.00
2000-01Jaromir JagrR81780.96
2000-01Joe SakicC82660.80
2000-01Patrik EliasL82640.78
2000-01Teemu Selanne (SJ)R1290.75
2000-01Pavel BureR82590.72
2000-01Alex TanguayL82580.71
2000-01Peter ForsbergC73470.64
2000-01Milan HejdukR80490.61
2000-01Steve YzermanC54310.57
2000-01Teemu Selanne (TOT)R73410.56
2000-01Teemu Selanne (ANA)R61320.52
2000-01Chris DruryF71350.49
2000-01Brendan ShanahanL81390.48
2000-01Paul KariyaL66300.45
2000-01Martin LapointeR82330.40
2000-01Slava KozlovL72290.40
2000-01Sergei FedorovC75290.39
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2001-02Alexei KovalevF67530.79
2001-02Jaromir JagrR69540.78
2001-02Jarome IginlaR82640.78
2001-02Todd BertuzziR72550.76
2001-02Markus NaslundL81590.73
2001-02Mario LemieuxC24170.71
2001-02Glen Murray (BOS)R73510.70
2001-02Joe ThorntonC66460.70
2001-02Joe SakicC82530.65
2001-02Sergei FedorovC81450.56
2001-02Brendan ShanahanL80440.55
2001-02Brett HullR82400.49
2001-02Steve YzermanC52240.46
2001-02Teemu SelanneR82320.39
2001-02Luc RobitailleL81290.36
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2002-03Peter ForsbergF75730.97
2002-03Joe ThorntonC77650.84
2002-03Milan HejdukR82630.77
2002-03Glen MurrayR82630.77
2002-03Joe SakicC58390.67
2002-03Todd BertuzziR82550.67
2002-03Sergei FedorovC80520.65
2002-03Alex TanguayL82520.63
2002-03Markus NaslundL82500.61
2002-03Jaromir JagrR75450.60
2002-03Jarome IginlaR75440.59
2002-03Brett HullR82480.59
2002-03Pavel DatsyukC64370.58
2002-03Brendan ShanahanL78400.51
2002-03Teemu SelanneR82400.49
2002-03Henrik ZetterbergL79330.42
2002-03Steve YzermanF1650.31
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2003-04Peter ForsbergC39300.77
2003-04Alex TanguayL69530.77
2003-04Markus NaslundL78580.74
2003-04Joe ThorntonC77570.74
2003-04Patrik EliasL82570.70
2003-04Scott GomezC80540.68
2003-04Todd BertuzziR69440.64
2003-04Jaromir JagrR77480.62
2003-04Joe SakicC81490.60
2003-04Pavel DatsyukC75440.59
2003-04Glen MurrayR81460.57
2003-04Brett HullR81450.56
2003-04Milan HejdukC82460.56
2003-04Sergei FedorovC80370.46
2003-04Paul KariyaL51200.39
2003-04Steve KonowalchukF76300.39
2003-04Teemu SelanneR78220.28
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2005-06Joe ThorntonC81720.89
2005-06Jaromir JagrR82710.87
2005-06Michael NylanderC81620.77
2005-06Jason SpezzaC68490.72
2005-06Alex TanguayL71490.69
2005-06Joe SakicC82530.65
2005-06Brendan ShanahanF82530.65
2005-06Pavel DatsyukC75480.64
2005-06Henrik ZetterbergL77490.64
2005-06Teemu SelanneR80500.63
2005-06Sergei Fedorov (ANA)C500.00
2005-06Sergei Fedorov (CBJ)C62250.40
2005-06Sergei Fedorov (TOT)C67250.37
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2006-07Daniel BriereC81650.80
2006-07Jason SpezzaC67520.78
2006-07Vincent LecavalierC82630.77
2006-07Sidney CrosbyC79590.75
2006-07Joe ThorntonC82600.73
2006-07Pavel DatsyukC79550.70
2006-07Joe SakicC82570.70
2006-07Jaromir JagrR82550.67
2006-07Alexander OvechkinL82550.67
2006-07Henrik ZetterbergL63410.65
2006-07Evgeni MalkinC78450.58
2006-07Teemu SelanneR82460.56
2006-07Sergei FedorovC73200.27
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2007-08Alex OvechkinL82750.91
2007-08Sidney CrosbyC53440.83
2007-08Evgeni MalkinC82660.80
2007-08Dany HeatleyL71570.80
2007-08Jarome IginlaR82650.79
2007-08Daniel AlfredssonR70550.79
2007-08Jason SpezzaC76590.78
2007-08Marian GaborikL77580.75
2007-08Henrik ZetterbergF75550.73
2007-08Vincent LecavalierC81590.73
2007-08Joe ThorntonC82590.72
2007-08J.P. DumontF80560.70
2007-08Ilya KovalchukL79550.70
2007-08Pavel DatsyukC82560.68
2007-08Teemu SelanneR26110.42
2007-08Sergei Fedorov (CBJ)C50180.36
2007-08Sergei Fedorov (TOT)C68240.35
2007-08Sergei Fedorov (WSH)C1860.33
YearPlayerPosGPESPESPPG
2008-09Evgeni MalkinC82700.85
2008-09Alex OvechkinL79630.80
2008-09Sidney CrosbyC77620.81
2008-09Martin HavlatR81630.78
2008-09Zach PariseL82610.74
2008-09Pavel DatsyukC81590.73
2008-09Daniel SedinL82580.71
2008-09Jarome IginlaR82570.70
2008-09Henrik SedinC82560.68
2008-09Marian HossaR74470.64
2008-09Henrik ZetterbergC77410.53
2008-09Teemu SelanneR65260.40
2008-09Sergei FedorovC52200.38

Finally, nhl.com doesn't have don't have the numbers posted before 1997-98, but it's interesting to note that Selanne/Kariya were playing 17-18 minutes of even strength and 5+ on the PP, while Fedorov played around 13-14 at ES and 3-4 on the PP, as well as 2-3 on the PK. He also played a more significant amount before his 1997 holdout than after, and he played more before the 1996 acquisition of Larionov for Sheppard than after. It's not unlike the Carson situation in the early 90s in that it resulted in depth at center, but reduced individual numbers for all. Except the third center in this instance wasn't defensively inept, and he wasn't the team's third-best forward.

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03-15-2013, 07:06 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Any time a team pushed into the finals with a legit offensive star, that star ooutperformed Fedorov offensively by a significant degree (Sakic in 1996, Lindros in 1997).
How many points did Lindros score in the 1997 Finals exactly? Three? And Fedorov? Six, you say?

How exactly is that Lindros outperforming Fedorov?

Quote:
Sooo. . . we should give Fedorov credit for something he might have been able to accomplish if he had tried? Really? There are plenty of players who performed well in the regular season, and also excelled in the playoffs. If Fedorov couldn't do that, that's fine. . .but let's rank him accordingly.
People love to rank Crosby as "the best player in hockey the past few years" based on what-ifs. Are we rating on which player was better overall or which player scored better in the regular season? Because that's a different question with a different answer.

Quote:
You are missing the point. Either Fedorov was a magical two-way player or he wasn't. If he WAS, then explain to me how having to play defense hurt his offense so much? Certain people love to think of Fedorov as this player who combined top-ten offense with Selke defense. . .and once someone points that he was rarely ever a top-ten offensive player, they answer with, 'yeah, but he played defense!'. . .so that's NOT a top-ten offensive player with Selke defense, is it? That's top-twenty offensive player with Selke defense, isn't it?
It depends on how you define "top-ten offensive player". Do you define it as top-ten in points, top-ten most individually effective offensively, etc. Different definitions with different lists of players. Fedorov was one of the most offensively talented players of his era, but due to differences in player usage, linemates, and ice time he was not one of the top scorers. The onset of the DPE right during his prime didn't help either; if the 90s post-96 were similar scoring levels to before 96, it's likely that Fedorov is higher on the 1990s scoring lists.

Quote:
I see a lot of opinion in favour of Fedorov here, and not much fact.
This is a thread asking the question "Who's better, a defensive center with significant offensive skill, or an offensive winger?"

Somehow, I see that being a primarily opinion-based question.

Quote:
So if he rolled all four lines. . . would it be correct to assume that every center had equal opportunities offensively then?
At even strength, that's basically true. Obviously there's the power play, but as I have stated, Fedorov generally did not play with Yzerman and Shanahan.

Quote:
You would think his offensive numbers would have jumped up, then, when he left Detroit, wouldn't you?
Fedorov's age when he left Detroit for Anaheim: 33 years, 7 months.

Guy Lafleur's age when he retired midseason, after posting only 5 points in 19 games: 33 years, 2 months.

Bobby Clarke's age upon retirement: 34 years, 7 months.

Pavel Bure's retirement age: 32y, 1m.

Peter Forsberg, the first time: 34y, 9m.

But we'll go ahead with the idea that Fedorov should have started putting up offensive numbers to rival his prime. Because, y'know... everyone can have longevity like Howe, all they have to do is think happy thoughts.

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03-15-2013, 08:59 PM
  #315
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I'm not sure what question is everybody trying to answer. "Is Fedorov overrated?" or "Fedorov vs. Selanne". The first question cannot be answered conclusively. As for the second, what part of

Offensively: Selanne > Fedorov
Defensively: Selanne <<<< Fedorov
which adds up to
Selanne <<< Fedorov

is so hard for some people to grasp?

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03-15-2013, 09:52 PM
  #316
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Sooo. . . we should give Fedorov credit for something he might have been able to accomplish if he had tried? Really? There are plenty of players who performed well in the regular season, and also excelled in the playoffs. If Fedorov couldn't do that, that's fine. . .but let's rank him accordingly.
The issue seems to be that we are ranking players differently. I try to rank a player by how he contributes to team success or makes his team better, because helping your team win is the point of hockey after all. And I care a lot that Fedorov was always there playing amazing hockey when the Red Wings needed him, and I care a lot less that when the games didn't matter so much (as they didn't really when the Red Wings were a stacked team), he coasted. It's kind of like the Oilers who didn't bother playing defense in the regular season because they didn't need to.

And no, it isn't just Cup counting. I do put a lot of stock in Selanne almost singlehandedly carrying his team to the playoffs in 1997-98.

Quote:
If I say, 'Alex Tanguay is an amazing player. Best I've ever seen'. That's not fact. That's opinion. That tells me nothing about Alex Tanguay. I see a lot of opinion in favour of Fedorov here, and not much fact.
If you can find me a large number of people who think that Alex Tanguay was one of the best players in the league and one of the best playoff performers of his era, then we can talk about him as a comparable to Fedorov


Quote:
So if he rolled all four lines. . . would it be correct to assume that every center had equal opportunities offensively then?
Not really. Depends on linemates, matchups, and usage.

Quote:
You would think his offensive numbers would have jumped up, then, when he left Detroit, wouldn't you?
He was 34 when he left Detroit and had to adjust to a new team and system. Some players can do it, Feds obviously didn't. Selanne definitely was better from age 35+ Anyway, I don't think its a coincidence that Feds had his best season since the mid 90s in 2002-03 when Yzerman missed most of the season.

Quote:
He was a FINE playoff performer. I have never said differently. He's just seriously overrated there.
Overrated by who? And I'll rephrase my question another way - Can you name any players who were better playoff performers than Fedorov between the 1995 and 2005 lockouts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'd give Yzerman that one.
Yeah, I agree with you. I definitely think Yzerman deserved the 1998 Conn Smythe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How many points did Lindros score in the 1997 Finals exactly? Three? And Fedorov? Six, you say?

How exactly is that Lindros outperforming Fedorov?
Yeah, that's why judging players by their cumulative playoff stats is can be pretty misleading, and judging them by their per-game playoffs stats can be downright awful. Who cares that Lindros beat up on the weaker Eastern Conference in the early rounds before getting smoked in the finals?

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03-15-2013, 09:55 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by gary69 View Post
Fedorov "chose" to let lesser players shine in less relevant games, and only showed up to his true ability when it mattered most. In the end, he didn't care about where he would rank in the history of the NHL, nor about what some foreign fans would think of him. He would make his millions and could compete with the best when he wanted to. Not that he wasn't competitive, but he could afford to choose his moments, he was just that good.
Wow. Are. You. Kidding. Me.

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03-15-2013, 09:57 PM
  #318
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I'm not sure what question is everybody trying to answer. "Is Fedorov overrated?" or "Fedorov vs. Selanne". The first question cannot be answered conclusively. As for the second, what part of

Offensively: Selanne > Fedorov
Defensively: Selanne <<<< Fedorov
which adds up to
Selanne <<< Fedorov

is so hard for some people to grasp?
It's not hard to grasp, but maybe people just don't agree with you.

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03-15-2013, 09:59 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by datbwoymjp View Post
He'd make a good vampire.

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03-15-2013, 10:02 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Can you name any players who were better playoff performers than Fedorov between the 1995 and 2005 lockouts?
In terms of skaters, probably just the usual suspects: Forsberg, Jagr, Sakic, Stevens. There's a problem with your question though: Jagr aside, the only people who could even challenge for the title had to come from Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, or New Jersey, because no one else is close to Fedorov in GP but them and John LeClair.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

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03-15-2013, 10:06 PM
  #321
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It's not hard to grasp, but maybe people just don't agree with you.
But he took the time to add > to <<<<.

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Originally Posted by MeowLeafs View Post
He'd make a good vampire.


He had really good hair back in the day. Hell, so did Sundin.

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03-15-2013, 10:17 PM
  #322
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But he took the time to add > to <<<<.





He had really good hair back in the day. Hell, so did Sundin.
Hair-off!


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03-15-2013, 10:28 PM
  #323
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I think Fedorov was the more complete player heck the guy even played defense and Bowman (not jokingly) said he'd have likely won the Norris if he left him there. 2 incredible players but I think most teams would take prime Fedorov over prime Selanne.

I think Fedorov's not so graceful exit from Detroit and going to small market teams until he left for Russia damaged his legacy. Selanne could end up the more memorable and discussed player purely for his position in all time scoring and his very complete and very long uninterrupted NHL career.

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03-15-2013, 10:32 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How many points did Lindros score in the 1997 Finals exactly? Three? And Fedorov? Six, you say?

How exactly is that Lindros outperforming Fedorov?
Wait. Are we talking about total performance over four rounds or aren't we? Because when I posted the PPG stats over Fedorov's four year run, I was told it was harder to produce over all four rounds. Now, its best round of the playoffs, is it?

Does that mean we can now remove Fedorov and his four point final in 1995 from his 'run' of great playoffs?

Quote:
People love to rank Crosby as "the best player in hockey the past few years" based on what-ifs. Are we rating on which player was better overall or which player scored better in the regular season? Because that's a different question with a different answer.
We're rating best overall. My issue is that Fedorov is consitently portrayed as this all-time two-way center and he simply wasn't.

Quote:
The onset of the DPE right during his prime didn't help either; if the 90s post-96 were similar scoring levels to before 96, it's likely that Fedorov is higher on the 1990s scoring lists.
The onset of the DPE has NOTHING to do with Fedorov only managing to finish twice in the top ten of scoring.

Quote:
This is a thread asking the question "Who's better, a defensive center with significant offensive skill, or an offensive winger?"

Somehow, I see that being a primarily opinion-based question.
And it moves out of the realm of opinion when some people wildly overrate one of those players.

Quote:
At even strength, that's basically true. Obviously there's the power play, but as I have stated, Fedorov generally did not play with Yzerman and Shanahan.
Let's forget Yzerman for a second. Larionov (at 36 years old!) has the same PPG as Fedorov in 1997, then has a better PPG in 1999 when he's even older. Now, if Fedorov is getting the same opportunities as everyone else, why is he getting consistently outscored by an older Yzerman and on occassion by an ancient Larionov?

You know the Red Wings better than I do, and you're saying that they got pretty much the same opportunities, so how can that possibly happen to an elite-level talent like Fedorov? Systems are the same. Opportunities are the same. Fedorov had someone else on the ice with him on the power-play right? I mean, they weren't just sending him out there by himself, were they?

Again. I know he's good defensively. I know he's good in the playoffs. But come on! At some point offense counts for something.

Quote:
Fedorov's age when he left Detroit for Anaheim: 33 years, 7 months.

Guy Lafleur's age when he retired midseason, after posting only 5 points in 19 games: 33 years, 2 months.

Bobby Clarke's age upon retirement: 34 years, 7 months.

Pavel Bure's retirement age: 32y, 1m.

Peter Forsberg, the first time: 34y, 9m.
[/QUOTE]

You use two examples of guys from an era when almost no one played that long, and two guys with serious injury problems.

Bure played a combined 107 games in the two years leading up to his retirement. Forsberg was four years removed from being able to hit 75 games in a season. Fedorov played 75, 80 and 81 games in his last three seasons in Detroit, and 80 his first in Anaheim. Not comparable.

Healthy, elite centers of Fedorov's era and their production at that age?

Joe Sakic- 87 points
Ron Francis- 87 points
Adam Oates- 82 points
Mats Sundin- 78 points
Mike Modano- 77 points (in 78 games)

Fedorov had 65! You know where that puts him on the list for that age, in that era (era being 1996-1997 to the 2004 lockout. Essentially, the DPE)? Eleventh. Between Craig Conroy and Rod Brind'Amour (there's that name again).

That's Fedorov healthy on a team with as much ice-time as he could possibly want, no left-wing lock, no line-rolling. . . and he's producing like Rod Brind'Amour. And yet, judging by the pro-Fedorov crowd in this thread, he's easily better than all those names, give or take a Joe Sakic. (And the only guy by that age who was not great defensively was Sundin)

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03-15-2013, 10:44 PM
  #325
vadim sharifijanov
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seriously, i'm not the only who's said it in this thread and given how you're making the same points over and over again i probably won't be the last, but if you really can't tell the difference between fedorov's defensive game and brind'amour's or gilmour's or oates' or francis' or sakic's... i mean modano is the only one that's close, and it's not that close.

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