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Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:14 PM
  #26
goyotes
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Also would have to think that this ship of opportunity sunk a long time ago as well... try as they may.
Actually, as crazy as it sounds, by "Phoenix" standards, attendance has improved. The next two home games will be sold out, and if the Coyotes stay in the playoff hunt, I could see attendance exceeding 14k on average by the end of the season. From what has been reported, the STH base has grown a little, and there are a lot less free tickets distributed.

But from a potential ownership standpoint, I agree. It's like the house that stays on the market for a year because it was overpriced. The seller eventually gets less than had they listed it at FMV to start with.

Of course, the NHL will not get less because they can pick up and move the house to a better neighborhood.

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03-15-2013, 02:26 PM
  #27
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Yeah, even with improved attendance, just not seeing how they can save the franchise without public subsidies when they couldn't seal the deal with them.

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03-15-2013, 02:36 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Would have to think that given the relative "ease" the way the PA went into green-lighting realignment that outside the League pulling the mother of all Bazinga!'s and suspends operations, they're staying till either one of Seattle/QC nears fruition.
Ya pretty much. Contraction or suspension is I think just too much of a humiliation for the league to even begin to think about contemplating. They'd be absolutely crucified despite the prospect of doing so actually making some sense, reason on several levels. But still, the fallout, just not a can you'd want to open. So long as there are markets demanding hockey, they can just park it, incur further losses, the price escalating & for quite some time if they so wish, another season, another after that.

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:46 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
No doubt if the team relocates the CoG will go hard after the NHL, arguing they were misled into believing the NHL had qualified buyers in need of only a reasonable lease (which the CoG provided), and that the "insurance" policy of the last two $25M payments was an orchastrated attempt by the NHL to pass off its ownership obligations to the citizens of a small city.

It will get ugly.
It sounds like you are talking about fraud. I don't see how Glendale has any chance of establishing any of the required elements in a manner fastidious enough to satisfy their burden of proof. Glendale created Glendale's problems. They weren't coerced by falsity. The potential for a non-Glendale sale was well documented from the time the NHLs bid was submitted to the court. The city was a willing partner; not an innocent victim. I'm not excusing the NHLs actions, I think they took full advantage of the situation, but making that into a civil claim sounds like a huge stretch.

I guess the city could make a desperate heave that the specific performance clause in the Moyes AMULA survives contract rejection in BK. But that's a tough road to travel and the probability of success is very low while the cost of pursuing that remedy is very high.

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Originally Posted by goyotes
I see a ground swell and a signficant negative backlash against the NHL from a local and even national perspective. I know there is another narrative, but in the mind of the public, the backlash against the NHL will be signficant. .
It's all subjective but I tend agree with the local backlash but disagree on any type of national attention. Whatever minor coverage the story might gain is more likely to react favorable to ending what could easily be considered the biggest franchise failure in the modern sports era. I imagine "What took so long" would be a much more frequent headline than "Shame on the NHL". I can appreciate if that isn't comforting for fans of the team but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I know franchise suspensions have happened in the minors and in the annals of history, but it's hard to imagine it happening in the present day NHL. It's an even bigger black eye than the current situation.
Again, these things are subjective. I believe that contracting and/or relocating the insolvent franchises is a prudent move that would generally be well received. The non-traditional expansion could easily be considered the biggest league strategy failure in the modern sports era. I imagine "What took so long" would be a much more frequent headline than "Shame on the NHL". I can appreciate if that isn't comforting for fans of the league but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
That would present an interesting issue with relocation. Six teams in the pacific, 13 in the West, while 8 in each division and 16 in the East.
I don't think so....
W/Contraction
"Division A": ANA, CGY, EDM, LAK, SJS, VAN, COL
"Division B": CHI, DAL, MIN, NSH, STL, WPG, CBJ
"Division C": BOS, BUF, DET, FLA, MTL, OTT, TBL, TOR
"Division D": CAR, NJD, NYI, NYR, PHI, PIT, WSH

W/Relocation to Quebec
"Division A": ANA, CGY, EDM, LAK, SJS, VAN, COL
"Division B": CHI, DAL, MIN, NSH, STL, WPG, CBJ
"Division C": BOS, BUF, DET, FLA, MTL, OTT, QUE, TOR
"Division D": CAR, NJD, NYI, NYR, PHI, PIT, TBL, WSH

Fixed. Now if I could get a math/stats guy on the phone to figure out the schedule with only 29 teams...

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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Would have to think that given the relative "ease" the way the PA went into green-lighting realignment that outside the League pulling the mother of all Bazinga!'s and suspends operations, they're staying till either one of Seattle/QC nears fruition.
I think the NHLPA has a pretty good grasp on what drives HRR. It isn't the 25 jobs in Glendale. "Smaller pool, bigger pie" will probably make a lot of sense to much of the union.

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03-15-2013, 02:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
- By delivering a $300MM+ public funding component, the NHL essentially set the "Phoenix value" at $0. Then they brought in one of their top fixers, Greg Jamison, and gave him over a year to fine someone(s) willing to operate the team in Glendale. I don't need to tell you how that turned out.
I think you found the problem, the fine was too high...

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03-15-2013, 02:51 PM
  #31
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So, what have I missed? My guess? Nothing....

If I were to put money on it, with the new alignment ratified, the team will be moving to Seattle or Portland at the end of this season.

I don't see the league re-aligning for 13-14 then having to do another re-alignment for 14-15.... That's just dumb.

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03-15-2013, 02:59 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
So if the franchise is (sold and) re-activated, how do they ice a team? Some kind of expansion-esque draft?

I know franchise suspensions have happened in the minors and in the annals of history, but it's hard to imagine it happening in the present day NHL. It's an even bigger black eye than the current situation.
let me put it to you this way, tarheel, as you know, esp. w/ Charlotte, that ECHL Franchise was leased to them, and Kahn bought the license from CDS, in Albany, to get the current Checkers up to the AHL, just as Norfolk was Hampton Roads prior to their ascension in 2000. you just won't see a termination/suspension unless it violates a bylaw, @ any league level, whether it be NHL/AHL/CHL/ECHL;

Glendale's issue, isn't the ownership, but it has outstanding PDC's, so essentially suspending the franchise, not only affects the Coyotes, but those contractual agreements, that Don Maloney executed w/ Portland, the CHL Sundogs (Prescott Valley), as well as Gwinnett (ECHL) essentially, or by each league's bylaws about active membership, in Portland's case, we are required, as Charlotte has, to have an affiliate in place as part of the PDC, otherwise it's not on Petrovek to pay everybody on staff, of which in your case, Carolina does that for the Checkers, and Phoenix does that, that's why u see Asst. GM's USUALLY acting as liaisons between the top affiliate and the NHL Club.

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Old
03-15-2013, 03:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
I think the NHLPA has a pretty good grasp on what drives HRR. It isn't the 25 jobs in Glendale. "Smaller pool, bigger pie" will probably make a lot of sense to much of the union.
Good point, and quite true. Just that, even as bumbling as the League gives us notions that they are, one would have to imagine they would want to preserve a "ready-made" roster, intact, should they be relocated... as opposed to dispersing the talent into the the rest of the mesh and hit the reset button with an expansion draft. Dispersal draft, then the remaining 29 teams offer up lessor talent/contract dumps so to speak to refill the roster in a couple of years?

This is the NHL though, and stranger things are bound to happen, even if we've seemingly seen the weirdest of the weird... they never disappoint.

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03-15-2013, 03:35 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Good point, and quite true. Just that, even as bumbling as the League gives us notions that they are, one would have to imagine they would want to preserve a "ready-made" roster, intact, should they be relocated... as opposed to dispersing the talent into the the rest of the mesh and hit the reset button with an expansion draft. Dispersal draft, then the remaining 29 teams offer up lessor talent/contract dumps so to speak to refill the roster in a couple of years?

This is the NHL though, and stranger things are bound to happen, even if we've seemingly seen the weirdest of the weird... they never disappoint.
Oh, for sure. I think the league would strongly prefer moving the franchise over suspending it's operation. To me the question is: absent a viable relocation opportunity, would the NHL eat the losses in Glendale as opposed to shutting down the franchise? But I've already been wrong about this.

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03-15-2013, 04:25 PM
  #35
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I don't think the league will have a problem finding a relocation spot this time around. Last year there were still some legal challenges (appeal process) with QCs arena so they were not ready to go. By the time those hurdles were cleared, Cog had already had the 1st AMF approved with Jamison.

If/when the NBA gives the green light for the Sonics move to Seattle, looks like there will be 2 spots (provided Levin can strike a deal won the new arena).

Don't think contraction is likley....but as stated above, stranger things have happened

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post

W/Relocation to Quebec
"Division A": ANA, CGY, EDM, LAK, SJS, VAN, COL
"Division B": CHI, DAL, MIN, NSH, STL, WPG, CBJ
"Division C": BOS, BUF, DET, FLA, MTL, OTT, QUE, TOR
"Division D": CAR, NJD, NYI, NYR, PHI, PIT, TBL, WSH
Evidence that the bolded above (Colorado shifted to a "Pacific" Division to open a space for Quebec) is still an open possibility: Take a glance at how the various NHL teams are spinning the league's announcement that realignment has been approved. Most teams' web sites have an version of the NHL's main story, edited locally to excite their fans about which Division they'll be playing in and against which rivals. Teams that especially wanted to move, like Dallas, Detroit, and Columbus, really build it up, with extra text or even cover graphics as you open their web site. Other teams localize the story in less dramatic ways, but still add some text about where the team will be playing. The Avalanche web site adds nothing to the story, except a sub-head. "Realignment Approved: Colorado to Play in New Division Effective for 2013-14 Season." Yeah, there's a map and list in the story that put Colorado in the new "Midwest" Division, but there's no added text about their new rivals there, as almost every other team web site has. The headline and the news play "Colorado to Play in New Division" fits whether they're truly going to the "Midwest" next year or to the "Pacific" to clear room for a Quebec team. And by the way, I don't think Columbus will be moved back to the "Midwest" so Quebec could play in the East. Columbus has one of the flashiest announcements of all the web sites, blaring out on their cover page that they're going to the Eastern Confernce - they wouldn't hype this with so huge their fans unless it was solid. If Quebec gets a team, they'd be in the "Midwest," but that's still only one time zone away, and the "Pacific" would work better for the Avalanche, who'd have at least some teams in their time zone. I say the way the 'Lanche are playing this is exactly how you would spin it if the League told you it was still possible they'll be playing in the Pacific next year. No way they put Quebec in the "Pacific," when the Avalanche can be shifted west with ease.

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03-15-2013, 06:13 PM
  #37
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Phoenix is on MTN time half the year, anyway. Makes sense to shift Denver over. This realignment really is not a sign against Quebec. People read way too much into it. No schedule has been built. It would be an easy fix.

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03-15-2013, 06:26 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
Columbus has one of the flashiest announcements of all the web sites, blaring out on their cover page that they're going to the Eastern Confernce - they wouldn't hype this with so huge their fans unless it was solid.
Really? Didn't the Thrashers have a select-a-seat event the Saturday before relocation was announced? Seems "solid" info from teams is a bit hard to come by.

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03-15-2013, 06:50 PM
  #39
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Really? Didn't the Thrashers have a select-a-seat event the Saturday before relocation was announced? Seems "solid" info from teams is a bit hard to come by.
Well, Columbus isn't moving (not yet, anyway), so they couldn't afford to build up their fans' excitement about their new rivals, only to pull out the rug in two months and tell them they're staying in their old division, after all. I got the impression about the Atlanta Spirit group that they didn't give a d**n about the fans and they'd already pretty much poisoned that well. They were unloading that fan base and glad to do it.

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03-15-2013, 07:28 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
Well, Columbus isn't moving (not yet, anyway), so they couldn't afford to build up their fans' excitement about their new rivals, only to pull out the rug in two months and tell them they're staying in their old division, after all.
Given everything that franchise has had to deal with the since it's inception, (crappy management, terrible on ice product, losing the All-Star Game, losing the 1st overall to Edm, Rick Nash etc..) I honestly think that staying in the West, even after this announcement, wouldn't be given a second thought by the fans.

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03-15-2013, 07:37 PM
  #41
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Given everything that franchise has had to deal with the since it's inception, (crappy management, terrible on ice product, losing the All-Star Game, losing the 1st overall to Edm, Rick Nash etc..) I honestly think that staying in the West, even after this announcement, wouldn't be given a second thought by the fans.
It's great to see them winning now and seeming to turn a corner for their long-suffering fans. Maybe good things are ahead for that franchise, whatever conference/division they end up in.

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03-15-2013, 09:01 PM
  #42
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Was looking up something on the Coyotes and I came across this little link:

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Phoe...s/articles.htm

This has articles back to 1999 for Scottsdale ...

Shopping Centers, arena districts, trying to get votes removed, voting to give tax dollars to the team, will revitalize the city, no tax increase needed, owners not disclosing finances.....

The dream and the hurdles are always the same... just the location changes.

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03-15-2013, 11:13 PM
  #43
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http://business.financialpost.com/20...be-eyeing-nhl/

appears he is still in the game...."Fading to background of Quebecor, Peladeau said to be eyeing NHL"

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03-15-2013, 11:43 PM
  #44
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Bringing back the previous thread title, has anyone seen the clowns in the building yet? My guess is a big "NO". Once again, is it GB who is putting these new lies about new suitors out there? Three or four? Please, stop insulting everyone, but most of all, stop misleading the fans. The $170MM price tag was too high the day they put it out there, they knew it, and so did every tire kicker that came along! The NHL has known for years that this market, with a building located in the middle of nowhere would never sell! However, as long as the Council was stupid enough to hand over taxpayer money they would stay. Well, time is up, no buyers, no clown sightings and the stumpy Commish needs to make a decision soon or risk taking a real haircut next year in Glendale where the skepticism will be at an all time high!!!!

Uh..... newsflash...... they (IEH) were at the recent Kings game.

Not that it mattered to me and I wasn't even going to bother posting that here, but after reading the above rant I had to chuckle just a little.

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03-16-2013, 09:51 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
So, what have I missed? My guess? Nothing....

If I were to put money on it, with the new alignment ratified, the team will be moving to Seattle or Portland at the end of this season.

I don't see the league re-aligning for 13-14 then having to do another re-alignment for 14-15.... That's just dumb.
As we all know the NHL never does stupid things. Moving a team to the desert, watching it lose 8 figures every year, have it go into bankruptcy, buy it out of bankruptcy and continue to lose 8 figures every year, spend time working with and entertaining assorted groups of people who didn't have the capital to buy the team, all while there are markets with rabid fan bases sitting there waiting for a team, well that's just brilliant!

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03-16-2013, 10:21 AM
  #46
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Really? Didn't the Thrashers have a select-a-seat event the Saturday before relocation was announced? Seems "solid" info from teams is a bit hard to come by.
Yeah I would not read too much into what the marketing peoples does they usually the last to know.

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03-16-2013, 12:16 PM
  #47
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That would present an interesting issue with relocation. Six teams in the pacific, 13 in the West, while 8 in each division and 16 in the East.

I don't think so....
As far as that, I'm still holding to the idea that if QC buys the team, they're going to be "Winnipeged" (as in play in that division) until the 2-3 year window (whatever it is)till reassessing the current alignment.

I still think (tinfoil hat) that Bettman tells PKP "you want the team NOW, you're playing in the pacific for two years.

So, no, the alignment IMO wouldn't change at all.

Or we see an out of this world assignment for the Yotes to Seattle-team stays in Pacific, all is right with the world

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03-16-2013, 02:33 PM
  #48
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Bettman says there are three groups interested ?

I guess saying twenty five, or even twelve groups would not be believable !


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03-16-2013, 02:46 PM
  #49
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Bettman says there are three groups interested ?
Ya. Quebec City, Southern Ontario & Seattle. Is it lying if he isnt specific?

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03-16-2013, 04:14 PM
  #50
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Unbelievable this has been going on for 5 years.
Preaching to the choir.

Even I have to admit this run on life support is astounding. It's like a man losing a pint of blood every a week and still working in the mines.

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