HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part IV)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-15-2013, 01:07 PM
  #1001
Bob Barker
Registered User
 
Bob Barker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
I could see them plausibly take Neal as a PP specialist, depending on the make up of the rest of the team. If so, they could focus one PP unit on Crosby-Neal-Letang, and the other on Stamkos-MSL. Say:

Tavares - Crosby - Neal
Weber - Letang

Stamkos - Giroux - MSL
Doughty/Pietrangelo - Keith
I like this idea. I don't have Neal on my team, but this makes me think.

Bob Barker is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 02:37 PM
  #1002
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Mr Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
That all makes sense and I tend to agree with your ranking scheme not necessarily determining which 8 D-men make the squad, considering roles/responsibilities, redudancies in skillsets, experience, handedness, etc. I believe Subban is among the top 8 defencemen in Canada right now, but it seems like he needs an injury or significant slippage in play from one of Letang or Doughty (or possible Pietrangelo) to make Team Canada. Which in my view is unlikely. And that's alright. Back in 2010 Doughty was seen as a longshot to make the team, then next thing you know he's playing huge minutes on our #1 pairing. So anything could happen, and I have full confidence in Yzerman doing his due diligence and selecting the best players for the job.

I'd be curious to see the team rankings you alluded to above.

And, finally, Getzlaf is making a huge push for a spot on this roster, like I suspected he would. Currently tied for 6th in NHL scoring, well-above a PPG pace, and leading the Ducks to a (surprising) #2 position in the West. Obviously much will depend on the playoffs, and whether he can lead Anaheim on a nice run, but the downside is that we won't get to see him play again on the international ice until Sochi. If the Olympics started today I don't see how we could leave him off.

He'd probably drag Perry onto the team as well, although Perry is IMO capable of scoring much more than he is, and I'd like him to warm up to a 40-goal pace before I would want to see him on the team. His elbow this week was pretty ugly and the 4-game suspension much deserved, and unfortunately not atypical of him. With Perry you can certainly get the good and the bad. I've always thought of Perry having the better shot at making Team Canada than Getzlaf given he's a natural RWer, where we're comparatively pretty thin, a very good goal scorer, and isn't afraid to work the corners and the area in front of the net; whereas Getzlaf was caught up in a logjam at the center position.

Believe me I have noticed and I don't like it one bit. If Getzlaf and Perry are part of the team in Sochi, I don't like our chances at all. It means Hockey Canada is not thinking correctly or choosing correctly to play on big ice. If that's the case, then they better bring somebody in who knows big ice tactics, and no Canadian coach knows big ice tactics better than Andy Murray.

Let me rephrase that ) I'm glad to see both Getzlaf and Perry back in form as I support all my fellow Canadians, granted I'm not their biggest fan, I just don't think they are equipped to play big ice hockey.


Last edited by Mr Writer: 03-15-2013 at 03:00 PM.
Mr Writer is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 05:00 PM
  #1003
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
And, finally, Getzlaf is making a huge push for a spot on this roster, like I suspected he would. Currently tied for 6th in NHL scoring, well-above a PPG pace, and leading the Ducks to a (surprising) #2 position in the West. Obviously much will depend on the playoffs, and whether he can lead Anaheim on a nice run, but the downside is that we won't get to see him play again on the international ice until Sochi. If the Olympics started today I don't see how we could leave him off.
I would still leave him off. Poor skater (relative) and a lack of versatility. Canada has no need of Getzlaf at centre. Crosby is miles ahead, Stamkos is clearly better, Toews is getting a spot as well and is far better suited for his role. I see no reason why Tavares, Giroux, Bergeron or E. Staal wouldn't all be superior options for that line.

Getzlaf isn't getting any PP time on Canada, he isn't killing penalties, and he needs linemates for very specific roles. Getzlaf either needs Perry or skaters who can cycle and bang down low while being fast enough to cover for his lack of speed. The only players I can think of who fill those spots are Nash and Kane. With Nash, I would prefer for him to have a bigger role as the main offensive engine of Toews' line. Kane actually spent time on a line with Getzlaf and Perry at the last WC, and while he looked good personally the line did not function overly well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Believe me I have noticed and I don't like it one bit. If Getzlaf and Perry are part of the team in Sochi, I don't like our chances at all. It means Hockey Canada is not thinking correctly or choosing correctly to play on big ice. If that's the case, then they better bring somebody in who knows big ice tactics, and no Canadian coach knows big ice tactics better than Andy Murray.
I am highly in favour of Murray being involved with Canada in 2014. I hope, with futility I imagine, that he coaches the WC team this year and not Ruff.

JackSlater is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 05:44 PM
  #1004
Cory Trevor
Smokes, Let's go
 
Cory Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brockton
Country: United States
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Believe me I have noticed and I don't like it one bit. If Getzlaf and Perry are part of the team in Sochi, I don't like our chances at all. It means Hockey Canada is not thinking correctly or choosing correctly to play on big ice. If that's the case, then they better bring somebody in who knows big ice tactics, and no Canadian coach knows big ice tactics better than Andy Murray.

Let me rephrase that ) I'm glad to see both Getzlaf and Perry back in form as I support all my fellow Canadians, granted I'm not their biggest fan, I just don't think they are equipped to play big ice hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I would still leave him off. Poor skater (relative) and a lack of versatility. Canada has no need of Getzlaf at centre. Crosby is miles ahead, Stamkos is clearly better, Toews is getting a spot as well and is far better suited for his role. I see no reason why Tavares, Giroux, Bergeron or E. Staal wouldn't all be superior options for that line.

Getzlaf isn't getting any PP time on Canada, he isn't killing penalties, and he needs linemates for very specific roles. Getzlaf either needs Perry or skaters who can cycle and bang down low while being fast enough to cover for his lack of speed. The only players I can think of who fill those spots are Nash and Kane. With Nash, I would prefer for him to have a bigger role as the main offensive engine of Toews' line. Kane actually spent time on a line with Getzlaf and Perry at the last WC, and while he looked good personally the line did not function overly well.
You two, while being some of the more active posters on this subsection and some of my favorite reads, touch on a topic that I find very interesting for discussion. You aren't the only one's arguing against Getzlaf as I had heard he is high maintenance. I don't know the validity of that. I'm just curious as to the nature of it. Likewise, the fact that he's won at all levels and in NHL, as well as being a former Olympic gold Medal winner has to go into the thought process. Combined with the fact that he's having a heck of a season I don't know how Canada leaves him off the roster.

I'm just trying to understand the situation better as to his possibility of going to Sochi.

Cory Trevor is online now  
Old
03-15-2013, 06:03 PM
  #1005
86Habs
Registered User
 
86Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I would still leave him off. Poor skater (relative) and a lack of versatility. Canada has no need of Getzlaf at centre. Crosby is miles ahead, Stamkos is clearly better, Toews is getting a spot as well and is far better suited for his role. I see no reason why Tavares, Giroux, Bergeron or E. Staal wouldn't all be superior options for that line.

Getzlaf isn't getting any PP time on Canada, he isn't killing penalties, and he needs linemates for very specific roles. Getzlaf either needs Perry or skaters who can cycle and bang down low while being fast enough to cover for his lack of speed. The only players I can think of who fill those spots are Nash and Kane. With Nash, I would prefer for him to have a bigger role as the main offensive engine of Toews' line. Kane actually spent time on a line with Getzlaf and Perry at the last WC, and while he looked good personally the line did not function overly well.
Yeah, believe me, I'm no fan of Getzlaf or Perry. Given Crosby, Stamkos, and Toews are locks as the #1 to #3 centers, and where you see Staal, Tavares, Giroux, and Bergeron fitting into the picture, he'd need to fit in as the 4th line center or basically not fit in at all due to his lack of versatility (and keep in mind I see us rolling four fairly-balanced lines). And like you said, with his poor skating and his style of play he'll need to be sheltered by at least one defensively-oriented, fast-skating winger - which is an issue which is only compounded by having the even-slower Perry ride shotgun for him.

Its hard to say whether Hockey Canada is tuned in to the issue or not; Yzerman is no dummy, but Getzlaf is one of those guys that always seems to get the benefit of the doubt from the prognosticators in the media selecting Team Canada. I'm not one to believe that one player could sink a team, and from that perspective if Getzlaf is highly motivated and playing up to his dominant potential (like he is right now) he may present more reward than risk and would therefore be worth taking.

86Habs is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 06:28 PM
  #1006
86Habs
Registered User
 
86Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Trevor View Post
You two, while being some of the more active posters on this subsection and some of my favorite reads, touch on a topic that I find very interesting for discussion. You aren't the only one's arguing against Getzlaf as I had heard he is high maintenance. I don't know the validity of that. I'm just curious as to the nature of it. Likewise, the fact that he's won at all levels and in NHL, as well as being a former Olympic gold Medal winner has to go into the thought process. Combined with the fact that he's having a heck of a season I don't know how Canada leaves him off the roster.

I'm just trying to understand the situation better as to his possibility of going to Sochi.
Not sure about that. He may have been a bit of a princess back in junior (I recall his father complaining about his ice time in an interview during the WJHCs in the mid-00s), but seems to have matured since then. Our concerns around Getzlaf center around: 1) he's a poor skater, which is made worse on the international ice surface; 2) his style of play (cycling down low) may not be overly conducive to success on the larger ice surface and leaves his line exposed to counter-attack; 3) he's not versatile, like the other centers on the team - he wouldn't be a good fit on the wing, doesn't kill penalties, wouldn't be relied upon in a "shutdown"-type role, and probably wouldn't find success as a 13th forward who slots in here and there - essentially, he's a scoring-line, playmaking center.

86Habs is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 07:01 PM
  #1007
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Trevor View Post
You two, while being some of the more active posters on this subsection and some of my favorite reads, touch on a topic that I find very interesting for discussion. You aren't the only one's arguing against Getzlaf as I had heard he is high maintenance. I don't know the validity of that. I'm just curious as to the nature of it. Likewise, the fact that he's won at all levels and in NHL, as well as being a former Olympic gold Medal winner has to go into the thought process. Combined with the fact that he's having a heck of a season I don't know how Canada leaves him off the roster.

I'm just trying to understand the situation better as to his possibility of going to Sochi.
I don't share Mr. Writer's all-encompassing hatred of Getzlaf and his sidekick but I think our issues with him are pretty similar, and Habs86 already touched on them.

1. Getzlaf isn't a player that would be particularly strong on the wing. I would rather take centres like Tavares, Giroux and E. Staal who can excel on the wing.

2. Getzlaf isn't good enough to dislodge Crosby or Stamkos from the top two centre spots, and Toews is the clear third line centre.

3. Getzlaf is mediocre defensively. If Canada wants a defensive presence on the fourth line, Bergeron is the pick and Getzlaf is not even considered. Getzlaf also can't kill penalties at a really high level, so that elevates players who are inferior in a vacuum, like Patrick Sharp for instance, above him. As a role player, better to select one or both of Mike Richards and Sharp.

4. As an offensive fourth line centre, Getzlaf brings an offensive/grinding element that Toews can match. Seems redundant, and if Canada has a strength anywhere it's in offensively talented centres. His style seems less suited to international hockey than almost any other elite centre for Canada.

5. Skating is not a strength for Getzlaf. I'm not absolutely obsessed with speed and skating ability for this team, but after watching Canada since the 1998 Olympics the lines with a poor skating centre (on international ice) are complete liabilities unless the centre is surrounded by players with great speed or tremendous hockey sense (think Lemieux in 2002). Getzlaf is possibly a worse skater than anyone else getting serious consideration for Canada.

6. Attitude. I met Getzlaf actually, chatted with him for a bit and he's a good guy (Perry is a tool, Ryan is quiet, and yes sometimes their line eats breakfast together with random people at hotels) but he doesn't seem like someone you pick as the 13th forward. It seems like he has just enough issues through his history that I don't want him in that role. I would rather a young guy, or an obvious role player.

7. Getzlaf was a disappointment in his only senior tournament on international ice. He was great at the 2008 WC, but that was in Quebec. In 2012 he was a disappointment, and that was with Olympics quality linemates in Perry and Kane/Benn. I'm not going to rule him out due to one relatively poor tournament after a disappointing season, but it certainly does not help.

All that said, if Getzlaf finishes this year as a top 10 scorer and starts well next year, Canada will probably find a way to select him. Hockey Canada likes the guy, he has Olympic experience and he has been very good in NHL hockey lately. I'm not convinced due to the issues above and also the limited sample size thus far in the season, but I am doubtful that Hockey Canada will consult me.

JackSlater is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 07:09 PM
  #1008
Cory Trevor
Smokes, Let's go
 
Cory Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brockton
Country: United States
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
6. Attitude. I met Getzlaf actually, chatted with him for a bit and he's a good guy (Perry is a tool, Ryan is quiet, and yes sometimes their line eats breakfast together with random people at hotels) but he doesn't seem like someone you pick as the 13th forward. It seems like he has just enough issues through his history that I don't want him in that role. I would rather a young guy, or an obvious role player..
This is exactly how I thought they would be


I find your analysis interesting and informative and I do agree with the sentiment that it's based on the playing criteria alone and the fact that he might be a liability when push comes to shove. I agree with you as I think there are more options better suited for the international game.

Cory Trevor is online now  
Old
03-15-2013, 10:15 PM
  #1009
MAK19
FreeWierciochBanAndy
 
MAK19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Madrid
Posts: 13,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I don't share Mr. Writer's all-encompassing hatred of Getzlaf and his sidekick but I think our issues with him are pretty similar, and Habs86 already touched on them.

1. Getzlaf isn't a player that would be particularly strong on the wing. I would rather take centres like Tavares, Giroux and E. Staal who can excel on the wing.

2. Getzlaf isn't good enough to dislodge Crosby or Stamkos from the top two centre spots, and Toews is the clear third line centre.

3. Getzlaf is mediocre defensively. If Canada wants a defensive presence on the fourth line, Bergeron is the pick and Getzlaf is not even considered. Getzlaf also can't kill penalties at a really high level, so that elevates players who are inferior in a vacuum, like Patrick Sharp for instance, above him. As a role player, better to select one or both of Mike Richards and Sharp.

4. As an offensive fourth line centre, Getzlaf brings an offensive/grinding element that Toews can match. Seems redundant, and if Canada has a strength anywhere it's in offensively talented centres. His style seems less suited to international hockey than almost any other elite centre for Canada.

5. Skating is not a strength for Getzlaf. I'm not absolutely obsessed with speed and skating ability for this team, but after watching Canada since the 1998 Olympics the lines with a poor skating centre (on international ice) are complete liabilities unless the centre is surrounded by players with great speed or tremendous hockey sense (think Lemieux in 2002). Getzlaf is possibly a worse skater than anyone else getting serious consideration for Canada.

6. Attitude. I met Getzlaf actually, chatted with him for a bit and he's a good guy (Perry is a tool, Ryan is quiet, and yes sometimes their line eats breakfast together with random people at hotels) but he doesn't seem like someone you pick as the 13th forward. It seems like he has just enough issues through his history that I don't want him in that role. I would rather a young guy, or an obvious role player.

7. Getzlaf was a disappointment in his only senior tournament on international ice. He was great at the 2008 WC, but that was in Quebec. In 2012 he was a disappointment, and that was with Olympics quality linemates in Perry and Kane/Benn. I'm not going to rule him out due to one relatively poor tournament after a disappointing season, but it certainly does not help.

All that said, if Getzlaf finishes this year as a top 10 scorer and starts well next year, Canada will probably find a way to select him. Hockey Canada likes the guy, he has Olympic experience and he has been very good in NHL hockey lately. I'm not convinced due to the issues above and also the limited sample size thus far in the season, but I am doubtful that Hockey Canada will consult me.
Huge post, but all your points are moo. Because going back to #2, Stamkos can play the wing. In fact I don't think Stamkos should play anything other than the wing. He has work to do defensively and could get exposed on the Olympic stage.

Therefore, Getzlaf could be the 2nd line centre. With his play this year, he certainly deserves it.

Stamkos - Crosby - Giroux
Tavares - Getzlaf - Perry
Staal - Toews - Nash
Marchand - Bergeron - Seguin
Benn/Ladd/Duchene/Neal/St. Louis

MAK19 is online now  
Old
03-15-2013, 10:36 PM
  #1010
habsrule4eva3089
Registered User
 
habsrule4eva3089's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,183
vCash: 500
Three center positions are locked down.

Sid
Toews
Getzlaf

Stamkos is not an international centre, he better suited at wing with the game he brings. There is one center position left and that's pretty much a lock as well with Patrice Bergeron.

In a short tournament chemistry matters and that's the only reason Perry would be considered for a postion on this team. He brings a unique skill set with his quick hands his accurate release and ability to find open space when playing with Getzlaf. Now obviously he doesn't add much in the transition game but the tight games will be played in small spaces and special teams will make the difference, another area where Perry succeeds in. He also brings an element of simple Hockey where he's always constantly in front of the net screening and making life difficult for the opposition goaltender. There's a lot Corey Perry adds to a team, don't write him off just yet.

habsrule4eva3089 is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 11:04 PM
  #1011
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Huge post, but all your points are moo. Because going back to #2, Stamkos can play the wing. In fact I don't think Stamkos should play anything other than the wing. He has work to do defensively and could get exposed on the Olympic stage.
Yes, Stamkos can play wing. Why should he be switched to wing just to accommodate Getzlaf? Stamkos is the better player. Everything you say about Stamkos defensively can be applied to Getzlaf. Getzlaf is still a relatively poor skater, and he did not perform well on big ice last year in ideal conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Therefore, Getzlaf could be the 2nd line centre. With his play this year, he certainly deserves it.
He has only played 26 games this year, less than 1/3 of an 82 game season. If he goes the whole 48 games at this level and performs well in the playoffs, we have a significant sample size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Stamkos - Crosby - Giroux
Tavares - Getzlaf - Perry
Staal - Toews - Nash
Marchand - Bergeron - Seguin
Benn/Ladd/Duchene/Neal/St. Louis
Where is the defensive cover on the second line? Where is the speed?

JackSlater is offline  
Old
03-15-2013, 11:24 PM
  #1012
MAK19
FreeWierciochBanAndy
 
MAK19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Madrid
Posts: 13,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Yes, Stamkos can play wing. Why should he be switched to wing just to accommodate Getzlaf? Stamkos is the better player. Everything you say about Stamkos defensively can be applied to Getzlaf. Getzlaf is still a relatively poor skater, and he did not perform well on big ice last year in ideal conditions.
Getzlaf is MUCH better defensively than Stamkos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
He has only played 26 games this year, less than 1/3 of an 82 game season. If he goes the whole 48 games at this level and performs well in the playoffs, we have a significant sample size.
The Olympics are closer to 26 games than 82.

Bottom line is Getzlaf ha one bad year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Where is the defensive cover on the second line? Where is the speed?
They are a scoring line. Getzlaf and Perry aren't defensive liabilities like you are making them out to be. They won't be out there to shut down #1 lines anyway.



Anyway, who is your 2nd line centre? Stamkos? Who is the defensive cover on your 2nd line?



Look, maybe the big ice is a concern for Getzlaf... bottom line is, even considering that, I don't see 13 better Canadian forwards than him. Not at the moment. And if Getzlaf is slotted anywhere in this lineup, it's as the 2nd scoring centre.

MAK19 is online now  
Old
03-16-2013, 12:15 AM
  #1013
habsrule4eva3089
Registered User
 
habsrule4eva3089's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,183
vCash: 500
Name me one defenseman in the World who can cover Ryan Getzlaf when he has the puck and he's protecting it in the offensive zone lol. I don't get the hate for Getzy he's a top 10 Canadian player and he's just as much as a lock as Toews. No speed? Are you crazy, he's 6 foot 4 and his ability to get to spaces is quite quickly. and define speed? The game is not going to be a transition game for the whole 60 minutes, it's the players who can play in the small areas and can create and Getzy is as good as you can get.

habsrule4eva3089 is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 01:22 AM
  #1014
Cory Trevor
Smokes, Let's go
 
Cory Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brockton
Country: United States
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrule4eva3089 View Post
Name me one defenseman in the World who can cover Ryan Getzlaf when he has the puck and he's protecting it in the offensive zone lol. I don't get the hate for Getzy he's a top 10 Canadian player and he's just as much as a lock as Toews. No speed? Are you crazy, he's 6 foot 4 and his ability to get to spaces is quite quickly. and define speed? The game is not going to be a transition game for the whole 60 minutes, it's the players who can play in the small areas and can create and Getzy is as good as you can get.
The point being that in open ice size isn't as pertinent. Open ice allows for more skilled players and better passing. Protecting the pucks nice and all, especially in NHL sized rinks. In terms of agility or for that matter, play in the offensive zone and finding open ice, there are others who are more suited.He will make Team Canada so this is all irrelevant however the argument can be made that there are other centers whose game translate better to international ice. That's the point(I could be wrong) they are trying to make, regardless of how correct or incorrect it may be. In terms of actual DMen covering him, I think there's few who can knock him off the puck, but can limit his ability to be as effective as he is in the NHL.

Cory Trevor is online now  
Old
03-16-2013, 04:37 AM
  #1015
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Mr Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
Fascinating stuff, a good informative debate, but there's no hatred for Getzlaf or Perry; and if we were picking for Vancouver I wouldn't be concerned and would most likely have them on the team, or at least one skate on the team pending their results for the remainder of the year and into next..but this is a whole different kettle of fish... What this tells me if both Getzlaf/Perry are included is that HC is not taking the right approach to building the team and the inclusion of these 2 would be the most obvious mistake, and that there are most likely 20 other less obvious nuances/mistakes HC is making which could ultimately cost us not to mention a Perry brain cramp in a close game against Switzerland in the 1/4 final. Perry's hockey smarts are, well... lets just say limited.


Last edited by Mr Writer: 03-16-2013 at 04:54 AM.
Mr Writer is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 06:04 AM
  #1016
True Hockey Fan
Registered User
 
True Hockey Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Huge post, but all your points are moo. Because going back to #2, Stamkos can play the wing. In fact I don't think Stamkos should play anything other than the wing. He has work to do defensively and could get exposed on the Olympic stage.

Therefore, Getzlaf could be the 2nd line centre. With his play this year, he certainly deserves it.

Stamkos - Crosby - Giroux
Tavares - Getzlaf - Perry
Staal - Toews - Nash
Marchand - Bergeron - Seguin
Benn/Ladd/Duchene/Neal/St. Louis

I have a bit different line-up, but I agree on Getzlaf.

Tavares - Crosby - Bergeron
E.Staal - Stamkos - St. Louis
Neal - Getzlaf - Perry
Nash - Toews - Sharp

13th: Giroux


SH: Toews - Sharp; Bergeron, E.Staal / St.Louis / Nash / Crosby

True Hockey Fan is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 07:15 AM
  #1017
True Hockey Fan
Registered User
 
True Hockey Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Yes, Stamkos can play wing. Why should he be switched to wing just to accommodate Getzlaf? Stamkos is the better player. Everything you say about Stamkos defensively can be applied to Getzlaf. Getzlaf is still a relatively poor skater, and he did not perform well on big ice last year in ideal conditions.



He has only played 26 games this year, less than 1/3 of an 82 game season. If he goes the whole 48 games at this level and performs well in the playoffs, we have a significant sample size.



Where is the defensive cover on the second line? Where is the speed?

Getzlaf is not that bad skater, I've seen a few Ducks games and he's fine. I agree that Getzlaf wasn't anything special overall at last year's wc, but he had 9 points in 8 games and +8 after his worst NHL season, and I think he played pretty good against Finland, in the probably best canadian game. In that game, he showed that his quality can be apply on international surface.
I agree he have to show something in the playoffs for sure.


Last edited by True Hockey Fan: 03-16-2013 at 08:29 AM. Reason: grammar corection
True Hockey Fan is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 08:18 AM
  #1018
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Getzlaf is MUCH better defensively than Stamkos.
Not really. Both are mediocre in that area, but I would give Getzlaf a minor edge. On international ice where speed/agility are required to a greater degree, Stamkos has obviou advantages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The Olympics are closer to 26 games than 82.

Bottom line is Getzlaf ha one bad year.
What does the length of the Olympics have to do with anything? I'm saying that Getzlaf has been great so far this year, but it's only 26 games. Every year in the NHL there are players who get off to a great start and then lose steam. If Getzlaf cooled off to a 1 PPG pace then I doubt he is penciled in as a lock. My criticism of Getzlaf has more to do with his style of play than his last season, which was clearly abnormally poor for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
They are a scoring line. Getzlaf and Perry aren't defensive liabilities like you are making them out to be. They won't be out there to shut down #1 lines anyway.
I hate this mentality. Every line should be capable both offensively and defensively. Every line on Canada should be expected to score due to the talent available, and they should all be expected to be effective defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Anyway, who is your 2nd line centre? Stamkos? Who is the defensive cover on your 2nd line?
Well, Stamkos likely comes as a package with St. Louis, and I would take St. Louis defensively over any of Getzlaf, Perry or Stamkos. Factoring in the larger ice surface and that edge grows. I would consider E. Staal strongly for either line, so that is moot. If Canada was caught behind the goal line or deep in a corner, I would much rather have Stamkos or St. Louis skating to make up space than Getzlaf or Perry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Look, maybe the big ice is a concern for Getzlaf... bottom line is, even considering that, I don't see 13 better Canadian forwards than him. Not at the moment. And if Getzlaf is slotted anywhere in this lineup, it's as the 2nd scoring centre.
I agree that Getzlaf is one of the 13 best forwards right now, and he pretty much has to play second line centre (which is a limiting factor). Picking the team shouldn't be about simply selecting the 13 best forwards though. The right players are needed for the right roles, and Getzlaf can only play one role, while there are others who can play that role and others at least at a comparable level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrule4eva3089 View Post
Name me one defenseman in the World who can cover Ryan Getzlaf when he has the puck and he's protecting it in the offensive zone lol. I don't get the hate for Getzy he's a top 10 Canadian player and he's just as much as a lock as Toews. No speed? Are you crazy, he's 6 foot 4 and his ability to get to spaces is quite quickly. and define speed? The game is not going to be a transition game for the whole 60 minutes, it's the players who can play in the small areas and can create and Getzy is as good as you can get.
I have no hate for Getzlaf, as I said before I like him. If you remember the WC last year, we saw many defencemen who could handle Getzlaf in the offensive zone, and that was with Perry and Benn/Kane. As far as speed goes, I don't even mean straight ahead speed as much as the ability to recover. If Getzlaf gets caught in the corner against Russia or Sweden, I have a hard time believing that he has the ability to get back to help stop a rush or even get back into good position should the play happen in the defensive zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Hockey Fan View Post
Getzlaf is not that bad skater, I've seen a few Ducks games and he's fine. I agree that Getzlaf wasn't anything special overall at last year's wc, but he had 9 points in 8 games and +8 after his worst NHL season, and I think he played pretty good against Finland, in the probably best canadian game. In that game, he shown that his quality can be apply on international surface.
I agree he have to show something in the playoffs for sure.
Getzlaf being fine as a skater is partially the point. Look at the other players most likely to represent Canada, and they are basically all exceptional skaters. Getzlaf is not, and while that is not an issue that precludes him from the team, it has to be considered. At the WC Getzlaf had some points, but I expected far more given who played on his line. His level of play was lower than the stats would indicate, in my opinion. Once again it's not an issue that should preclude him from the team, just one more thing to consider.

JackSlater is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 08:30 AM
  #1019
True Hockey Fan
Registered User
 
True Hockey Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrule4eva3089 View Post
Name me one defenseman in the World who can cover Ryan Getzlaf when he has the puck and he's protecting it in the offensive zone lol. I don't get the hate for Getzy he's a top 10 Canadian player and he's just as much as a lock as Toews. No speed? Are you crazy, he's 6 foot 4 and his ability to get to spaces is quite quickly. and define speed? The game is not going to be a transition game for the whole 60 minutes, it's the players who can play in the small areas and can create and Getzy is as good as you can get.
Totally agree. His speed and defensive cover seems to be underrated here. I don't say he's like Crosby or Duchene, but considering his size, he's a very good skater.

And in my opinion, the speed on international ice is a little bit overrated - yes, it's important, but you're not going to get gold only because your team has the fastest skaters. BUT - I agree with J.Slater though. I'm just saying that I would not leave Getzlaf off the roster because of speed, his speed is ok for me. If you gonna leave him off because of no versatiliy, then it's ridiculous. I wouldn't be against him as a left winger with Toews as the center on that line with Perry, and if Getz is not playing well on the left side, then switch him and Jonathan Toews.

It could be like this:

Tavares - Crosby - Neal
E.Staal - Stamkos - St.Louis
Toews - Getzlaf - Perry
Nash - Bergeron - Giroux / Sharp

13th: Sharp / Giroux

Somebody might go crazy about Toews as a winger, but didn't he played some minutes on a wing at 2010 olympics ? And I think Toews can play better as a left-winger than Stamkos, who's on the left on many rosters here.

All I'm saying is I don't think Toews will be a left-winger, but it wouldn't be a problem if he was.

True Hockey Fan is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 08:56 AM
  #1020
True Hockey Fan
Registered User
 
True Hockey Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Not really. Both are mediocre in that area, but I would give Getzlaf a minor edge. On international ice where speed/agility are required to a greater degree, Stamkos has obviou advantages.



What does the length of the Olympics have to do with anything? I'm saying that Getzlaf has been great so far this year, but it's only 26 games. Every year in the NHL there are players who get off to a great start and then lose steam. If Getzlaf cooled off to a 1 PPG pace then I doubt he is penciled in as a lock. My criticism of Getzlaf has more to do with his style of play than his last season, which was clearly abnormally poor for him.



I hate this mentality. Every line should be capable both offensively and defensively. Every line on Canada should be expected to score due to the talent available, and they should all be expected to be effective defensively.



Well, Stamkos likely comes as a package with St. Louis, and I would take St. Louis defensively over any of Getzlaf, Perry or Stamkos. Factoring in the larger ice surface and that edge grows. I would consider E. Staal strongly for either line, so that is moot. If Canada was caught behind the goal line or deep in a corner, I would much rather have Stamkos or St. Louis skating to make up space than Getzlaf or Perry.



I agree that Getzlaf is one of the 13 best forwards right now, and he pretty much has to play second line centre (which is a limiting factor). Picking the team shouldn't be about simply selecting the 13 best forwards though. The right players are needed for the right roles, and Getzlaf can only play one role, while there are others who can play that role and others at least at a comparable level.



I have no hate for Getzlaf, as I said before I like him. If you remember the WC last year, we saw many defencemen who could handle Getzlaf in the offensive zone, and that was with Perry and Benn/Kane. As far as speed goes, I don't even mean straight ahead speed as much as the ability to recover. If Getzlaf gets caught in the corner against Russia or Sweden, I have a hard time believing that he has the ability to get back to help stop a rush or even get back into good position should the play happen in the defensive zone.



Getzlaf being fine as a skater is partially the point. Look at the other players most likely to represent Canada, and they are basically all exceptional skaters. Getzlaf is not, and while that is not an issue that precludes him from the team, it has to be considered. At the WC Getzlaf had some points, but I expected far more given who played on his line. His level of play was lower than the stats would indicate, in my opinion. Once again it's not an issue that should preclude him from the team, just one more thing to consider.

I share your opinion, mainly the bold ones. You're right that it's not about best 13 players in terms of scoring, but it's about to make the best TEAM. To make it clear, Getzlaf is not a lock for me, so he can be replaced by someone different, and I have no problem with that.
Let's see in next weeks and months.

True Hockey Fan is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 10:03 AM
  #1021
MAK19
FreeWierciochBanAndy
 
MAK19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Madrid
Posts: 13,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Not really. Both are mediocre in that area, but I would give Getzlaf a minor edge. On international ice where speed/agility are required to a greater degree, Stamkos has obviou advantages.
I'd say Getzlaf is slightly above average in the NHL while Stamkos is slightly below average. So I don't think it's really close. There's a reason why the Ducks have been so dominant this season. Getzlaf has been their best player.

Even last year in Getzlaf's awful season, he wasn't THAT bad defensively.

Heck, his wikipedia page says contributes both offensively and defensively is widely know as a two-way centre. Can't disagree with wiki


You're underrating Getzlaf's skating, and overrating its impact on big ice. Getzlaf is a good puck possession, he won't need to chase it around the ice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
What does the length of the Olympics have to do with anything? I'm saying that Getzlaf has been great so far this year, but it's only 26 games. Every year in the NHL there are players who get off to a great start and then lose steam. If Getzlaf cooled off to a 1 PPG pace then I doubt he is penciled in as a lock. My criticism of Getzlaf has more to do with his style of play than his last season, which was clearly abnormally poor for him.
The short length of the Olympics means performance over 82 games isn't that important.

For example, I would pick Giroux for the Olympics. If it was 82 game tournament instead of the current format, there is no way in heck I would pick Giroux. Giroux is just awful defensively over the course of an NHL season. His effort is bad and at times pathetic.

Now, he is capable of playing well defensively. In a short tournament, I have no doubt Giroux will do whatever is necessary to win, including being responsible defensively. And obviously he is one of the most talented offensive players available.


Now, maybe Getzlaf was awful in his last 82 game season. Does that mean a more consistent but less talented player will be more effective in a short Olympic tournament? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I hate this mentality. Every line should be capable both offensively and defensively. Every line on Canada should be expected to score due to the talent available, and they should all be expected to be effective defensively.
Agreed. But Getzlaf is not bad defensively.

My mentality is goal differential. Say Line A scores averages 5 GF per game, but 2 GA per game. Say Line B averages 2.5 GF per game and 0.5 GA per game.

Clearly Line B is better defensively, but Line A is a better all around line.

I pick the best all around players, and Getzlaf fits the bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Well, Stamkos likely comes as a package with St. Louis, and I would take St. Louis defensively over any of Getzlaf, Perry or Stamkos. Factoring in the larger ice surface and that edge grows. I would consider E. Staal strongly for either line, so that is moot. If Canada was caught behind the goal line or deep in a corner, I would much rather have Stamkos or St. Louis skating to make up space than Getzlaf or Perry.
I would take Getzlaf over St. Louis defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I agree that Getzlaf is one of the 13 best forwards right now, and he pretty much has to play second line centre (which is a limiting factor). Picking the team shouldn't be about simply selecting the 13 best forwards though. The right players are needed for the right roles, and Getzlaf can only play one role, while there are others who can play that role and others at least at a comparable level.
What you're saying here is a non issue. Crosby and Toews are the locks to play centre. Bergeron should as well. There isn't a single other player who can ''only'' play centre. Staal, Stamkos, Benn, Tavares, Grioux, etc can all play the wing. Therefore, there is a centre spot available.

MAK19 is online now  
Old
03-16-2013, 12:32 PM
  #1022
86Habs
Registered User
 
86Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I'd say Getzlaf is slightly above average in the NHL while Stamkos is slightly below average. So I don't think it's really close. There's a reason why the Ducks have been so dominant this season. Getzlaf has been their best player.

Even last year in Getzlaf's awful season, he wasn't THAT bad defensively.

Heck, his wikipedia page says contributes both offensively and defensively is widely know as a two-way centre. Can't disagree with wiki


You're underrating Getzlaf's skating, and overrating its impact on big ice. Getzlaf is a good puck possession, he won't need to chase it around the ice.



The short length of the Olympics means performance over 82 games isn't that important.

For example, I would pick Giroux for the Olympics. If it was 82 game tournament instead of the current format, there is no way in heck I would pick Giroux. Giroux is just awful defensively over the course of an NHL season. His effort is bad and at times pathetic.

Now, he is capable of playing well defensively. In a short tournament, I have no doubt Giroux will do whatever is necessary to win, including being responsible defensively. And obviously he is one of the most talented offensive players available.


Now, maybe Getzlaf was awful in his last 82 game season. Does that mean a more consistent but less talented player will be more effective in a short Olympic tournament? No.



Agreed. But Getzlaf is not bad defensively.

My mentality is goal differential. Say Line A scores averages 5 GF per game, but 2 GA per game. Say Line B averages 2.5 GF per game and 0.5 GA per game.

Clearly Line B is better defensively, but Line A is a better all around line.

I pick the best all around players, and Getzlaf fits the bill.



I would take Getzlaf over St. Louis defensively.



What you're saying here is a non issue. Crosby and Toews are the locks to play centre. Bergeron should as well. There isn't a single other player who can ''only'' play centre. Staal, Stamkos, Benn, Tavares, Grioux, etc can all play the wing. Therefore, there is a centre spot available.
I've never seen Stamkos play anything other than center in the NHL (except on the PP, of course). I may be being overly conservative, but personally I think it would be a bit of a gamble moving our #2 scoring threat and a guy we'll be relying upon to shoulder much of the offensive load, away from the position he's most comfortable playing. I still have Stammer as our #2 center. No issue with moving the other guys around to the wing. There's room for Getzlaf, but in my view it would be as the #3 or #4 center (I don't really care about line positioning; I'm talking about Toews and Getzlaf here, interchangeably), which would mean Bergeron gets moved to RW or the 13th forward spot. So doable.

The issue in my view is de-coupling Getzlaf from Perry. Getzlaf is out-performing Perry by a substantial degree this year, and if he keeps up his play and dominates in the playoffs (like he's capable of), then I'd want to find a spot for him in the forward group. I'm not so impressed with Perry. He's currently sitting at 9 goals, just received a 4-gamer for an extremely ugly and undisciplined hit, and we've discussed his skating ability ad nauseum on here for a number of months. I've consistently thought that Perry had the better shot at making this roster given our lack of depth at RW and the unique elements he's bring to the team, but I'm reneging on that view now and wouldn't be opposed to pairing Getzlaf up with wingers who would be more supportive of his success on the international ice.

86Habs is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 12:54 PM
  #1023
MAK19
FreeWierciochBanAndy
 
MAK19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Madrid
Posts: 13,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
I've never seen Stamkos play anything other than center in the NHL (except on the PP, of course). I may be being overly conservative, but personally I think it would be a bit of a gamble moving our #2 scoring threat and a guy we'll be relying upon to shoulder much of the offensive load, away from the position he's most comfortable playing. I still have Stammer as our #2 center. No issue with moving the other guys around to the wing. There's room for Getzlaf, but in my view it would be as the #3 or #4 center (I don't really care about line positioning; I'm talking about Toews and Getzlaf here, interchangeably), which would mean Bergeron gets moved to RW or the 13th forward spot. So doable.
If Stamkos plays with Crosby, I don't think you have to worry about his offensive production from the wing. He plays like a winger, the transition will not be hard for him.

He's also weak defensively and I expect Team Canada with their system will expect the centre to be the primary defensive forward on the line.

Bergeron is a centre through and through. So good defensively, and obviously SO GOOD at faceoffs. If it's between him and Stamkos to play centre, Bergeron is the easy choice imo.

I'd also rather have Giroux at centre than Stamkos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
The issue in my view is de-coupling Getzlaf from Perry. Getzlaf is out-performing Perry by a substantial degree this year, and if he keeps up his play and dominates in the playoffs (like he's capable of), then I'd want to find a spot for him in the forward group. I'm not so impressed with Perry. He's currently sitting at 9 goals, just received a 4-gamer for an extremely ugly and undisciplined hit, and we've discussed his skating ability ad nauseum on here for a number of months. I've consistently thought that Perry had the better shot at making this roster given our lack of depth at RW and the unique elements he's bring to the team, but I'm reneging on that view now and wouldn't be opposed to pairing Getzlaf up with wingers who would be more supportive of his success on the international ice.
Getz and Perry are a package for me. Both there or none.

Despite my pro-Getzlaf arguing in this thread, I'm still not sold on either being there.

If Eberle and/or Hall get hot next year, and they simply can't be left off and have surpassed Perry, then I'm fine with leaving both Perry and Getzlaf off the team.


I'm pro Getzlaf right now:
-Perry is better than any other natural wing not named Nash, and could be useful on a scoring line
-Getzlaf is a beast and securely a top 10 Canadian forward
-Their superior play outweighs their disadvantage on big ice compared to other players





Locks right now are: Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares, Giroux, Toews, Nash, Staal and Bergeron.

MAK19 is online now  
Old
03-16-2013, 01:40 PM
  #1024
86Habs
Registered User
 
86Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
If Stamkos plays with Crosby, I don't think you have to worry about his offensive production from the wing. He plays like a winger, the transition will not be hard for him.

He's also weak defensively and I expect Team Canada with their system will expect the centre to be the primary defensive forward on the line.

Bergeron is a centre through and through. So good defensively, and obviously SO GOOD at faceoffs. If it's between him and Stamkos to play centre, Bergeron is the easy choice imo.

I'd also rather have Giroux at centre than Stamkos.

Getz and Perry are a package for me. Both there or none.

Despite my pro-Getzlaf arguing in this thread, I'm still not sold on either being there.

If Eberle and/or Hall get hot next year, and they simply can't be left off and have surpassed Perry, then I'm fine with leaving both Perry and Getzlaf off the team.

I'm pro Getzlaf right now:
-Perry is better than any other natural wing not named Nash, and could be useful on a scoring line
-Getzlaf is a beast and securely a top 10 Canadian forward
-Their superior play outweighs their disadvantage on big ice compared to other players

Locks right now are: Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares, Giroux, Toews, Nash, Staal and Bergeron.
I suspect we're debating some minor points, but regardless, here are my thoughts:

- Perry is more dependent on Getzlaf, than Getzlaf is on Perry. Their style works extremely well on the NHL-sized ice, but I believe we'd see at least similar, if not superior, results from a Getzlaf-centered line on the international ice surface if we paired him up with a strong-skating, power-forward type player like a Nash, Hall, maybe even a Neal, Kane or a Duchene. Personally I think Getzlaf would look good with anybody that has a nose for the net and the ability to find open spaces in the offensive zone. Thus, my view of the possibility of de-coupling them (i.e., I don't see them as a package deal)

- Along with Nash, St. Louis, Neal, and Kane are outperforming Perry this year, then we start thinking about a host of others that would either play different roles on Team Canada (Sharp, maybe even Ladd merits discussion), or would frankly look better on the international ice given their speed (Seguin, Hall, Duchene).

- Its likely Stamkos, if he were slotted in at center, would garner the softest matchups at ES. The opposition's best checking line would certainly focus on Crosby's line, and a two-way Toews or Bergeron line would be matched-up against the opposition's top line (the Sedins and Malkins). I don't see an issue, from a defensive perspective, of having Stamkos play center. And for the record, I'd like to see Staal on his LW, a big, strong, responsible two-way threat.

- I don't see an issue with Bergeron playing wing; he'd simply take the faceoff instead of his linemate and he's always going to be the one tasked with proper positioning for defensive purposes (whether he's playing wing or center). Slotting him at RW might free up a more offensively-minded center (Crosby/Stamkos/Getzlaf) to focus more on what they're good at - offense.

86Habs is offline  
Old
03-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #1025
86Habs
Registered User
 
86Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,186
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=MandyAlwaysKnows;61762203]If Stamkos plays with Crosby, I don't think you have to worry about his offensive production from the wing. He plays like a winger, the transition will not be hard for him.[QUOTE]

I forgot to address the issue of separating Crosby and Stamkos (at ES; they could play together on the PP). They should anchor the top two lines, IMO. Pairing them up together makes it easy (well, easier - shutting those two down would be difficult to say the least) for the opposition to assign their best checking line and defensive D-men against them. By splitting them up, you force the opposition to decide which line you want to match up against defensively and it would almost certainly present opportunities for one of them to get a softer defensive matchup.

I'd like to see:

Tavares - Crosby - Bergeron*
E. Staal - Stamkos - St. Louis

* Someone needs to do the grunt work on this line and provide defensive cover. Crosby (LH) and Bergeron (RH) also provide faceoff prowess on both sides in important defensive situations. Whoever makes it as the 13th forward - someone like Seguin, Kane, Neal, Hall, Eberle, Skinner - can mix-in in offensive situations. And obviously Bergeron can drop down with Toews/Nash/Sharp to create a pure shutdown line, if necessary.

And finally, perhaps the most logical RWer for Crosby, Giroux, may not make sense given the animosity between those two. If they can bury the hatchet for the good of the Maple Leaf, we'd have some different options for the Crosby line as Giroux is an outstanding complete hockey player and would almost certainly fulfill any role asked of him by the coaching staff.

86Habs is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.