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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:11 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Yes, 2.0 is a lot better, and I do see your point regarding Eller. But if Therrien really sees how good Eller is, why does he never play the powerplay compared to guys like Gionta? At the start of the year, for the first 15ish games, why didn't Lars PK, even though he's clearly one of our best defensive forwards?

Like I said, I like Therrien. He's a good coach, and he's done a fabulous job thus far. But that doesn't mean he's perfect and doesn't make mistakes.

There obviously is a method to his coaching style.

I am going to reserve criticism as long as his decisions are leading to positive results.

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03-14-2013, 11:13 PM
  #177
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Great movie.

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03-14-2013, 11:19 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There obviously is a method to his coaching style.

I am going to reserve criticism as long as his decisions are leading to positive results.
It's pretty easy to criticize just about everything when things aren't going well.

But if everything is peachy so long as we win, then why even come here?

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03-14-2013, 11:34 PM
  #179
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His wind up wasn't an issue. He had no problem scoring 14goals with it in his rookie year. I do agree about him being more patient, but I feel this is also greatly influenced from having better options. Having a guy like Markov on the other side that can control the puck patiently and take good decisions gives PK the time to position himself well. Don't you see how much they move around at the point? Compare that to our 2nd PP wave where Bouillon and Gorges are stiff.

I don't think this has much to do with maturity. I think it has more to do with having better options. However I do agree that he has matured.
Of course it was quite a long time ago, but I don't quite recall his windup being a major problem his rookie season. But he was more of a mere gunner who was fed by Wisniewski then.

Anyway, the windup might not necessarily stymie Subban hitting the scoresheet, but it does have an effect in shots getting through vs. them getting block and losing puck possession.
But it did become annoying last season, as it gives the defender way too much time to react.

Even with better options, PK could still play the way he did last year, and imo, he still had some of those habits from last year. But P.K has modified his game enough for me to fathom mentioning him in the same breath as Lidstrom some time in the near future, something I would not have done even at the beginning of the season.

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03-15-2013, 03:17 AM
  #180
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Great movie.
The Curveball, right?

Never seen a movie creating a more strawed strawman

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03-15-2013, 07:22 AM
  #181
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The Curveball, right?

Never seen a movie creating a more strawed strawman
Grand Torino if I remember right

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03-15-2013, 07:29 AM
  #182
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Grand Torino if I remember right
Nevermind. I thought you were referring Trouble with the Curve. Never seen a more bias written piece of crap.

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03-15-2013, 12:35 PM
  #183
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Interesting part of the Martin Leclerc blog post :

«Quand Erik Cole a été échangé aux Stars de Dallas il y a exactement huit matchs, quelqu’un qui connaît intimement le vestiaire m’avait prédit que Subban allait rapidement s’épanouir.

« Cole était constamment sur le dos de Subban. Il lui criait après et ses attaques étaient parfois très personnelles. Maintenant que Cole est parti, je suis sûr que Subban deviendra un meilleur joueur », m’avait-il raconté.»

http://blogues.radio-canada.ca/blogu...ade-de-subban/


So basically, Leclerc said he was told by a source that Cole was constantly on Subban's case, and was shouting and insulting him, and that Cole's departure would lead to Subban being a much better player. Take it for what it's worth.

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Old
03-15-2013, 01:07 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Bergevin is in the business world. Real money. Real accountability. Real forecasts for salaries and living in the Cap World.
Is this a jab at my credibility? I have done cost estimation for multi billion dollar construction project. That was the business world, real money, real accountability.

Anything a GM does to research a players salary, we can do the same as fans. You take a look at the top D in the league, you look at their salary and you start to compare and dissect each piece at a time. I did that in my aforementioned post when I said we should of signed PK long term before the season.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Do you think that Bergevin just woke up one day and pulled a number out of his ass and ran with it? Remember, his first name is not Pierre and he understands hockey, including player management and what it takes to build a competitive team.

In the Cap World of the NHL, One Million dollars per year one way or the other over time is insignificant. One million dollars is what you would pay a press box sitter.

In the Cap World of the NHL, the $3 to $4 million cost savings for the next two years (not giving Subban the moon immediately) equals adding a very good DMan to this roster or a very good forward. Not Corey Perry, but a damned good forward.
Pulled a number out of his ass? I believe that MB has the right people in place and made a decision based on playing it safe, not really knowing TOO much about PK. He made a good business decision, but I still believe it was the wrong one. I have already explained why in my previous post and rest assured that I will do more of it in this one.

Before we continue, Max Pacioretty is on a home town discount, players that scored the same as max last year make more than him. He was 38th in the league in points and 18th in goals, which means his avg salary should be 5.5 million as per the top 40 salaries in the NHL for forwards.

You said it yourself, 1 million is for a press box sitter, now imagine you have 1 million from Subban+ 1 million from Max + 1 million you would of paid that player sitting in the box, you go from having a Ben Eager to having a second Rene Bourque, or insert player with around 3 M in cap hit.

Again like you say later on, if we want to sign a very good Dman or Forward, we buy out Kaberle, or trade Kaberle, buy out someone else. Saving 1 million on the cap hit over 13 years is beneficial, because he won't be the only one taking a discount. You set up a precedence and other players will buy in. How on earth is anyone in Pittsburgh going to ask for more than 8.7 M a year? No one will dare make more than Crosby. Crosby could of asked for league max at around 12 M a season, but he is a team player and knows what it takes to build a winner, nickle and dimming your way to the top. Rich people aren't rich by accident, you might call them cheap, I call them smart with their money.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I think Bergevin has a plan on how to pay Subban his salary in two years while making the moves on the team to make it possible. He learned well in Chicago.
I'm sorry to say, but you look rather foolish in my eyes after this statement. The same Chicago team that had to dismantle their Stanley Cup roster because of poor management of RFA, bonuses that penalized that team. He may of learned something, but Chicago is the last team you should praise when talking cap management.


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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Look how easily he made Cole's contract disappear. Same for Gomez. And soon to be same for Kaberle.
Good on him for Cole, so since he is good at getting rid of deadwood, with the savings on a long term Subban contract, we should be able to sign whoever we want?! Right? See what I did there.

Gomez situation was luck, you think MB went to the NHL and begged them for the compliance buyout? He got lucky.

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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Key is in developping young players, if everytime a player leaves or retire you have to acquire another via trade or UFA you'll be in trouble, but if you have young players (even if only one) ready to step in and replace those who left you should be O.K.

for example, when Gionta leaves if there's a young player making 1 mil ready to take his spot (or at least be a regular in the NHL) then we're good with the Cap, if we have to spend another 4 or 5 Mil to replace him then it's going to be hard to ice a good team.

Pens are the exception as they arent really good at drafting, but since they have two generationnal talent on their team they'll look decent to good for a long while.
You're right, having players ready to jump in is a great asset, but let's not take it for granted like we are this year. Entry level deals for 1st round picks are 2, 3 million a year. After 1st rounders, the chances a player makes the NHL drops, so these 1 million players, not that they are non existent, but some luck + good scouting helps. Having extra money saved will come in handy whether we sign a player or they come up.

Thanks Kriss E and E = CH², you both seem to get what I am talking about. Also Lafleurs Guy, we agree on something!!!

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:44 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's pretty easy to criticize just about everything when things aren't going well.

But if everything is peachy so long as we win, then why even come here?
Mom, is that you?

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03-15-2013, 05:47 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Is this a jab at my credibility? I have done cost estimation for multi billion dollar construction project. That was the business world, real money, real accountability.

Anything a GM does to research a players salary, we can do the same as fans. You take a look at the top D in the league, you look at their salary and you start to compare and dissect each piece at a time. I did that in my aforementioned post when I said we should of signed PK long term before the season.



Pulled a number out of his ass? I believe that MB has the right people in place and made a decision based on playing it safe, not really knowing TOO much about PK. He made a good business decision, but I still believe it was the wrong one. I have already explained why in my previous post and rest assured that I will do more of it in this one.

Before we continue, Max Pacioretty is on a home town discount, players that scored the same as max last year make more than him. He was 38th in the league in points and 18th in goals, which means his avg salary should be 5.5 million as per the top 40 salaries in the NHL for forwards.

You said it yourself, 1 million is for a press box sitter, now imagine you have 1 million from Subban+ 1 million from Max + 1 million you would of paid that player sitting in the box, you go from having a Ben Eager to having a second Rene Bourque, or insert player with around 3 M in cap hit.

Again like you say later on, if we want to sign a very good Dman or Forward, we buy out Kaberle, or trade Kaberle, buy out someone else. Saving 1 million on the cap hit over 13 years is beneficial, because he won't be the only one taking a discount. You set up a precedence and other players will buy in. How on earth is anyone in Pittsburgh going to ask for more than 8.7 M a year? No one will dare make more than Crosby. Crosby could of asked for league max at around 12 M a season, but he is a team player and knows what it takes to build a winner, nickle and dimming your way to the top. Rich people aren't rich by accident, you might call them cheap, I call them smart with their money.



I'm sorry to say, but you look rather foolish in my eyes after this statement. The same Chicago team that had to dismantle their Stanley Cup roster because of poor management of RFA, bonuses that penalized that team. He may of learned something, but Chicago is the last team you should praise when talking cap management.




Good on him for Cole, so since he is good at getting rid of deadwood, with the savings on a long term Subban contract, we should be able to sign whoever we want?! Right? See what I did there.

Gomez situation was luck, you think MB went to the NHL and begged them for the compliance buyout? He got lucky.



You're right, having players ready to jump in is a great asset, but let's not take it for granted like we are this year. Entry level deals for 1st round picks are 2, 3 million a year. After 1st rounders, the chances a player makes the NHL drops, so these 1 million players, not that they are non existent, but some luck + good scouting helps. Having extra money saved will come in handy whether we sign a player or they come up.

Thanks Kriss E and E = CH², you both seem to get what I am talking about. Also Lafleurs Guy, we agree on something!!!
No. I dont know you so I cant challenge your credibility when it comes to business.

However, Bergevin is the GM. And you are not.

For that I am ever thankful.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:43 PM
  #187
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No. I dont know you so I cant challenge your credibility when it comes to business.

However, Bergevin is the GM. And you are not.

For that I am ever thankful.
You're getting repetitive, it's obvious you have run out of logical arguments. Now, you can keep pulling the infantile "He's the GM and you're not" card, or you can just admit you were wrong and we can all move on. Either way, quit while you're ahead.

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03-15-2013, 07:52 PM
  #188
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I wonder if Subban's going to be pissed about the OEL deal. Only 21 years old, and less points than subban had, and he just got a 6 year 33m deal.

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03-15-2013, 07:58 PM
  #189
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I wonder if Subban's going to be pissed about the OEL deal. Only 21 years old, and less points than subban had, and he just got a 6 year 33m deal.
I don't think so. Habs are just going to have to pay for it imo.

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03-15-2013, 08:34 PM
  #190
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I don't think so. Habs are just going to have to pay for it imo.
If they can extend Subban for 5.5m for 6 - 8 years it will be a steal.

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03-15-2013, 08:54 PM
  #191
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If they can extend Subban for 5.5m for 6 - 8 years it will be a steal.
If Subban is a Norris finalist, he will ask for Drew Doughty money, and he will get it. With or without the Habs.

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03-15-2013, 09:01 PM
  #192
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If Subban is a Norris finalist, he will ask for Drew Doughty money, and he will get it. With or without the Habs.
If PK gets in the Norris talks, I don't know how Montreal would be able to justify trading away their most recognized Dman since Chelios.

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03-15-2013, 09:05 PM
  #193
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If PK gets in the Norris talks, I don't know how Montreal would be able to justify trading away their most recognized Dman since Chelios.
I guess if he's a Norris candidate at 23 he'd have earned top dollar.

Bergevin would never trade him.

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03-15-2013, 09:05 PM
  #194
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If Subban is a Norris finalist, he will ask for Drew Doughty money, and he will get it. With or without the Habs.
Better be with, I don't want to see him in another jersey. Love Subban's game. Can't wait for Tinordi to be ready, they should (hopefully) make a helluva first pairing.

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03-15-2013, 09:25 PM
  #195
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I wonder if Subban's going to be pissed about the OEL deal. Only 21 years old, and less points than subban had, and he just got a 6 year 33m deal.
I really don't understand the stupid bridge contract.

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03-15-2013, 09:41 PM
  #196
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I really don't understand the stupid bridge contract.
I believe mostly it is a cap issue. MB needs space for some moves he's planning.

Plus, he got PK to "buy in".

By the way, if I never hear that phrase again I will be very happy.

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03-15-2013, 09:44 PM
  #197
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I really don't understand the stupid bridge contract.
I don't understand it either.

At first it made sense because I thought that Subban's agent was asking for the moon. It very quickly became apparent that this was in fact not the case. Long term at 4.5 or 5 would've been great for us.

No idea why we didn't do this and I really don't get why we insisted on paying him so little. Anyways, what's done is done.

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03-15-2013, 09:53 PM
  #198
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this was the part of the risk in the "bridge" standoff...

sure, we get PK on a steal for the next 2 years, so in the short-term it looks like a great move by the GM.

but you can bet that PK and his agent will be making sure to collect every last penny they left on the table in this 2-year deal on the next contract.

Instead of getting Subban for 4-6 years at a cap hit in the 5M$ range (might have even got him just under), we get 2 years just under 3M$, but we'll be looking at a 6-7M$ deal after that.

even if Subban doesn't make finalist for the Norris this year or next, if he continues to be a league leader in goals/points as a Dman (while playing the major shut-down role for us defensively), he'll be in line for a new contract making him one of, if not the, highest paid dman in the league in 2-years.

add in the dearth of UFA dmen in play this year and next, and the limits on term under the new CBA (which will just pump up the $$/cap hit amounts of top-flight contracts getting signed), and it's not so far fetched to speculate Subban could be looking at a deal north of 7M$ by 2014-15...

any thought of him accepting less "for the club", will likely have vanished with the "bridge" deal MB shoved down his throat this year.

long-term, i suspect MB will regret the hardball he played with Subban this year... wether it was b/c he underestimated the kids ability (dumb) or he thought it was a schrewd cap management move (dumber).

overall, i'm a fan of what MB's done thus far, just don't think he was strategic enough in handling what is the best young d-man we've had in town since Chelios/Robinson.

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03-15-2013, 09:59 PM
  #199
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I believe mostly it is a cap issue. MB needs space for some moves he's planning.

Plus, he got PK to "buy in".

By the way, if I never hear that phrase again I will be very happy.
I think this is more of an ego issue, with Bergevin trying to stand firm on his dealings.
Makes no sense that he'd lock out PK until he agreed to under 3M. I mean, not even the PK detractors during the negotiations were speculating so little.
Maybe he did want to buy himself the most cap space possible for the next year when the cap decreases. But doing it at the mercy of your best player was simply moronic. And if he didn't think PK was that good, then it's even more moronic.

What really made me laugh though, is when people compared PK to MDZ. That was priceless.

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03-15-2013, 10:03 PM
  #200
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this was the part of the risk in the "bridge" standoff...

sure, we get PK on a steal for the next 2 years, so in the short-term it looks like a great move by the GM.

but you can bet that PK and his agent will be making sure to collect every last penny they left on the table in this 2-year deal on the next contract.

Instead of getting Subban for 4-6 years at a cap hit in the 5M$ range (might have even got him just under), we get 2 years just under 3M$, but we'll be looking at a 6-7M$ deal after that.

even if Subban doesn't make finalist for the Norris this year or next, if he continues to be a league leader in goals/points as a Dman (while playing the major shut-down role for us defensively), he'll be in line for a new contract making him one of, if not the, highest paid dman in the league in 2-years.

add in the dearth of UFA dmen in play this year and next, and the limits on term under the new CBA (which will just pump up the $$/cap hit amounts of top-flight contracts getting signed), and it's not so far fetched to speculate Subban could be looking at a deal north of 7M$ by 2014-15...

any thought of him accepting less "for the club", will likely have vanished with the "bridge" deal MB shoved down his throat this year.

long-term, i suspect MB will regret the hardball he played with Subban this year... wether it was b/c he underestimated the kids ability (dumb) or he thought it was a schrewd cap management move (dumber).

overall, i'm a fan of what MB's done thus far, just don't think he was strategic enough in handling what is the best young d-man we've had in town since Chelios/Robinson.
If he's smart, he goes to PK after this year and says... you've earned a raise and then tries to get him at what he asked for a year ahead of schedule plus an extra two million to top up the year he just had.

That just might work.
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I disagree. I think this is more of an ego issue, with Bergevin trying to stand firm on his dealings.
Makes no sense that he'd lock out PK until he agreed to under 3M. I mean, not even the PK detractors during the negotiations were speculating so little.


What really makes me laugh though, is people comparing PK to MDZ. That was priceless.
Yup, kept reading and hearing that all throughout the offseason... made no sense.

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