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All-Encompassing Tortorella/Sather Thread

View Poll Results: A quarter of the way through the 2013 season, do you approve or disapprove of Torts?
Approve 168 50.45%
Disapprove 165 49.55%
Voters: 333. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-15-2013, 04:43 PM
  #801
OverTheCap
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Originally Posted by Riverdale View Post
I don't think anyone sees THAT happening
Whether or not it does happen, and I realize it probably won't because our owner has no clue, there are still some Rangers fans who think that Sather has done a good job and is devoid of blame when things go wrong. I just don't understand that mentality.

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03-15-2013, 04:54 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Its far from crazy love.

Its about being around long enough to know:

1. this team's problems go far beyond coaching and...
2. perhaps most importantly, if you're complaining about Tortorella now - after an ECF run, a lockout shortened season with no training camp, and huge roster turnover, its quite evident you'll be complaining about the next coach in no time. So, best to just ride the rest of this season out.
This team’s roster has some holes, and star players are underperforming, but we still struggle to score 2g a game
even with the addition of Rick Nash? A powerplay ranked last, regardless of who is on the ice? that’s not on the Coach and
his system?

Speaking of the ECF run, we barely go out of the first/second round if it wasn’t for Lundqvist and the scoring help of Krieder, who has been
deemed “not ready” for the NHL by this coach. Sure he gets a pass this year, because of the shortened season, turnover, etc.
but the best and worst of what Torts has to offer is on display.

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03-15-2013, 05:02 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
This team’s roster has some holes, and star players are underperforming, but we still struggle to score 2g a game
even with the addition of Rick Nash? A powerplay ranked last, regardless of who is on the ice? that’s not on the Coach and
his system?

Speaking of the ECF run, we barely go out of the first/second round if it wasn’t for Lundqvist and the scoring help of Krieder, who has been
deemed “not ready” for the NHL by this coach. Sure he gets a pass this year, because of the shortened season, turnover, etc.
but the best and worst of what Torts has to offer is on display.
Richards and Gaborik were fine last year in the same system everyone talks about and continues to mischaracterize. Their games have collectively fallen off a cliff. So, I think you're glossing over a lot when you say "underperforming." They suck, period.

You have a point about the powerplay which, with Del Zotto and Richards not playing well, is more than the Rangers currently have.

As for Kreider - hes quite clearly not ready to play a complete game at this level. Any confidence he did have was zapped right out of him by a huge Brooks Orpik hit.

I mean, thats what it really comes down to - people want Tortorella to forego accountability to be a complete hockey player on both sides of the puck and open up the offense. We're chastising a coach for demanding more out of his players. Its frightening that people are so quick to spit in the face of the problems that plagued this organization for so long.

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03-15-2013, 05:23 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Richards and Gaborik were fine last year in the same system everyone talks about and continues to mischaracterize. Their games have collectively fallen off a cliff. So, I think you're glossing over a lot when you say "underperforming." They suck, period.

You have a point about the powerplay which, with Del Zotto and Richards not playing well, is more than the Rangers currently have.

As for Kreider - hes quite clearly not ready to play a complete game at this level. Any confidence he did have was zapped right out of him by a huge Brooks Orpik hit.

I mean, thats what it really comes down to - people want Tortorella to forego accountability to be a complete hockey player on both sides of the puck and open up the offense. We're chastising a coach for demanding more out of his players. Its frightening that people are so quick to spit in the face of the problems that plagued this organization for so long.
Few things. Gabs is a 40 goal scorer on the right-wing. Not on the left-wing. Get him out of there, he's clearly uncomfortable.

The power play I'm going to give a bit of a pass to right now. It's been coming along somewhat, and we've had two opportunities in the past two games, one of which was 6 seconds long. But the problem is between the lines there, in the sense that the Rangers aren't drawing penalties either. Not enough offensive zone time. Not enough "beneath the hash marks" time. Torts's bread and butter system clearly not working recently.

Not going to argue that Kreider appeared not ready. It would have been nice if he had the same leniency and patience that is being shown to JT, who is also clearly not ready. JT stays in the lineup though because his defense is pretty solid for a 20 year old rookie. His offense is a black hole though, and he's had an opportunity to play with guys Kreider didn't have the chance to. When Kreider was playing with Miller and Callahan on the Rangers first win streak of the season, he looked comfortable. In that four game stretch he had a goal and an assist and was +4. Then Torts jumbled the lines, and all was lost.

Now, I'm of the opinion that in a shortened season it's not really the time to be developing young talent, there's no town for that. So sending Kreider down to get a "full season" in the AHL and top 6 minutes is fine by me. I just don't like that JT is being given chance after chance when he has proven nothing but good defensive positioning. This is causing the Rangers to run two fourth lines instead of a third and fourth line, but Torts loves it because jamjamjamjamjam.

Tortorella came into this organization preaching accountability for everyone. What he has shown is selective accountability. I don't know how anyone can argue against that.

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:29 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Few things. Gabs is a 40 goal scorer on the right-wing. Not on the left-wing. Get him out of there, he's clearly uncomfortable.

The power play I'm going to give a bit of a pass to right now. It's been coming along somewhat, and we've had two opportunities in the past two games, one of which was 6 seconds long. But the problem is between the lines there, in the sense that the Rangers aren't drawing penalties either. Not enough offensive zone time. Not enough "beneath the hash marks" time. Torts's bread and butter system clearly not working recently.

Not going to argue that Kreider appeared not ready. It would have been nice if he had the same leniency and patience that is being shown to JT, who is also clearly not ready. JT stays in the lineup though because his defense is pretty solid for a 20 year old rookie. His offense is a black hole though, and he's had an opportunity to play with guys Kreider didn't have the chance to. When Kreider was playing with Miller and Callahan on the Rangers first win streak of the season, he looked comfortable. In that four game stretch he had a goal and an assist and was +4. Then Torts jumbled the lines, and all was lost.

Now, I'm of the opinion that in a shortened season it's not really the time to be developing young talent, there's no town for that. So sending Kreider down to get a "full season" in the AHL and top 6 minutes is fine by me. I just don't like that JT is being given chance after chance when he has proven nothing but good defensive positioning. This is causing the Rangers to run two fourth lines instead of a third and fourth line, but Torts loves it because jamjamjamjamjam.

Tortorella came into this organization preaching accountability for everyone. What he has shown is selective accountability. I don't know how anyone can argue against that.
One of Miller or Kreider basically needed to stay up. Theres just not enough bodies around right now.

Miller showed fearlessness in his play despite the mistakes. Kreider looked afraid.

Theres nothing selective about it. In having to keep one up, I think a heavy majority of coaches would've chosen Miller.

As for Gaborik, who does he deserve to unseat on the RW out of Nash and Callahan???....***crickets***

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03-15-2013, 05:38 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
One of Miller or Kreider basically needed to stay up. Theres just not enough bodies around right now.

Miller showed fearlessness in his play despite the mistakes. Kreider looked afraid.

Theres nothing selective about it. In having to keep one up, I think a heavy majority of coaches would've chosen Miller.
If "fearlessness" is trying to split two forecheckers by taking the puck into Lundqvist's crease, then by all means let's keep JT around. I'd have plugged his ass to the bench after that debacle so fast it's not even funny. Last night JT turns the puck over AGAIN, sees the bench for a few shifts and is back out there. If that was Kreider? Holy ****, one-way ticket to Hartford. I wish the personnel was in place to send JT back down, I really do. But you're right, it's not.

Even when Asham comes back off the IR, it's not like plugging in Asham and sending Miller to the Whale is going to help anything. That's a redundant move and probably only hurts the Rangers defensively while accomplishing nothing offensively.

However, the way the Rangers are going right now, 10 goals in their last 5 games including 4 in one of those games, I think a heavy majority of coaches would like more offense in their lineup. JT is providing none, and hasn't been for quite some time.

Would Kreider provide more? Perhaps if he comes up and plays like a man possessed as he did in the playoffs last season, there's no denying. But he has to play that way. It's clear what is cemented in Torts's mind though between JT and CK.

Torts calls out the top guys, and they don't respond. The way the team is constructed right now they're not going to win unless Nash, Gaborik, Richards, Stepan, Callahan, and Hagelin are on fire. Look at the goal totals. The Rangers have scored 65 goals this season. 44 of those goals are from those 6 players.

Halpern - 0. Boyle - 1. Miller - 2. Powe - 0. Bickel - 0. Pyatt - 4. Asham - 1. That's a serious issue. BUT IT'S WHAT TORTS WANTS. This team is a "jam" fest when it should be playing a more wide open system.

The entire bottom 6 is a black hole. It's a disgrace. It's why I was clamoring for a real 3C before the season started.

I don't know I'm starting to ramble. But one poster in this thread said the anti-Torts crew wasn't providing anything to their argument, so I'm trying!

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:40 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Halpern - 0. Boyle - 1. Miller - 2. Powe - 0. Bickel - 0. Pyatt - 4. Asham - 1. That's a serious issue. BUT IT'S WHAT TORTS WANTS. This team is a "jam" fest when it should be playing a more wide open system.:
Are you implying that the lack of a "more wide open system" is the only thing stopping these bums from scoring more goals?

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03-15-2013, 07:18 PM
  #808
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This threads gonna be a **** show when the pro Torts/Sather crew shows up
Absolutely not pro-Sather. But, Torts defender, checking in to turn this thread into a **** show.


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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Fire Torts now! This offense is a disgrace.
What would you like him to do? Gabby had a breakaway and a penalty shot which could have completely changed the game early on, and chokes on both (I'm counting the breakaway cuz it was a weak call and Gabby still had a good chance that he failed on). Nash and Richards also had amazing opportunities that they both squandered. Not to mention that when the Rangers were actually playing, they had decent stretches of dominating the play in the Jets' end. They ended the game with 29 shots on net. Other than a full 60 minute effort (which they didn't give last night), what else do you want? This is not a coaching or system problem. This is a problem of the team not showing up for full games, and certain players pulling complete disappearing acts this season.


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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
One great regular season and a CF berth doesnt make up for what's going on three average/underachieving regualr seasons.

Considering the talent he was given this season -- lockout or no lockout -- if the Rangers dont make the playoffs or get bounced in the 1st round as a lower seed, it's time for him to go.
I'm pretty sure I said this to you in another thread, but you just continue ignoring the circumstances surrounding his seasons here as a coach. In what you're counting as his "first season" with the Rangers, he came in mid-season with a team that was doing terribly. Did you really expect him to be able to teach his system, get used to the players and personnel, and ultimately turn that year around? Yet, you still keep counting this half-season as his first full year. Since then the team has continued its upward trend under him.

In his first two full seasons are you really going to tell me that he didn't get pretty much as much as you could expect any other coach to from those teams? They were in the process of a mini-rebuild, developing young talent, didn't have a legit 1C, didn't have the d-corps they do now, and had the likes of Olli Jokinen, a declining Chris Drury, and Wade Redden on the team. Are you ****ing serious with this ****? The man is not a miracle worker. You admit not having watched any games this year; I'm not convinced you really watched the team or followed them in Torts' first two full years here based on what it seems like you expected him to produce from what he had to work with.

Torts taught his system and they slowly developed and built a team around a defense first mindset and guess what? For the first time in over a decade, they actually have decent success. But yea, you're right, let's just blow all that up and start over.


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Originally Posted by jcman View Post
I'm convinced that the people who religiously defend Torts don't actually watch the games at all.
Funny, cuz I'm convinced that the emotionally unstable zealots who call for his head after each loss either don't understand the game of hockey, never played the sport, don't remember the Rangers teams between '98 and '08, or weren't old enough to live through those dark years. I'm not saying I love everything Torts does; but it is 100 % clear to me - and I imagine many of his defenders - that the focus the team has had lately on playing defense, two-way play, and building a core of defensively responsible players has improved the overall play of this team. During the decade+ of dark years this team did not once have a solid defense or defensive minded system - it was an afterthought and other teams just bulldozed them. Absolutely pathetic hockey. I do not want to go back to that.


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Originally Posted by Broadway Brad View Post
I don't understand how people defend Torts. His ****** system completely takes all great offensive chances away from the team. It's horrid.
Run and gun styles and amazing highlight reel goals are fun to watch, I admit. They can even make the team look dominant in some games where everything clicks and they blowout the other team. But on the whole, they don't ****ing win championships. Just look at Tampa Bay this year. The Penguins and Flyers in the playoffs last year. I really don't get why this is hard for people to understand. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Name me more than one or two teams that didn't play a defensively responsible system that has won the cup in the past 12 years.


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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
Enough of him and his so called "system" already. Defense first? We suck at defense. No one clears the crease. Hank is left out to dry on breakaways and crazy odd-man rushes. The offense is on a whole nother level of suck.
First thing I'll say is of course our defense sucks when we play a bad game; when teams have an off night or play a bad game, defensive breakdowns will inevitably be a part of the story. The last two games have been those types of games (not really making an excuse - because these two games were awful defensively - but let's not forget we're missing arguably our #1 defensive defenseman).

When everyone on this team is playing at the level they can play at, this team's overall defense is one of the best in the league. That said, I'll sort of agree with you so far this season... but I don't see how you can blame Torts. The issue is that virtually none of the guys on their back end has been playing to their ability this year. Girardi? He has made costly, stupid mistake after mistake all year long. MDZ? Definitely not doing so well after his solid start (though I don't think he's been as bad as others make him out to be). Even McD has had quite a few more mediocre to bad games than I would have expected him to. The only two d-men that I think have met or exceeded expectations this year are Staal and Stralman and one of those guys is out right now.

Don't even get me started on offense... Richards and Gabby playing like dog poo, two 4th lines? What do you expect? That basically leaves one line to produce the points. That line doesn't produce, and we lose? Gasp! I'm shocked! But what does this have to do with Torts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
I just tire of watching a slow, boring Rangers team.
Yet, when they win... where are these types of comments? Already made this point... but would you be happy watching a team that plays like the Lightning? Amazing offensive skill, but not a semblance of a defense, so they are one of the worst teams in the east. The Rangers have tried the no-defense thing already; it doesn't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd99 View Post
He's called out his "top players" more than a handful of times this year. And his benchings are not equal. Miller turns the puck over almost every shift but Torts likes him so he plays. Krieder was sent down, Milelr should be too he's not ready.
Yes, he called out the top players -- they deserved to be called out. I've said this elsewhere, but I guess I'll say it again; Torts may not be polite or a ray of sunshine, but its not like he's an idiot with the media (despite the act he puts out there and the story he sells). Did you notice how he didn't actually single anyone in particular out? He takes a different approach to motivating players - its actually pretty similar in some respects to things Keenan did while he was here. Scratch Boyle. Guy comes back and plays some of his best games of the season (too bad it hasn't stuck). He went out of his way to call out Hagelin earlier in the season (not even in a game where he did anything particularly poorly or wrong; just wasn't playing to the level he could) -- and Hagelin comes back and strings together a solid stretch of games (absolutely all props to Hagelin, but it isn't like Torts was throwing darts at a dartboard blindfolded). People act like when he throws his hissy fits in front of the media that he's just a dolt who is flailing around mindlessly. Yes, sometimes he seems to let his emotions get to him and says things that aren't really helpful (Winter Classic last year, Brooks outburst, etc -- but if you notice, many of those outbursts that I'd put in this category actually don't have to do with the team he coaches). A lot of the time if you actually listen to what he says - particularly about the team or specific players - it is pretty measured and purposeful, even if it is sometimes abrasive.

As for Kreider vs. Miller. Kreider wasn't ready for top 6 minutes. He just wasn't playing at that level. Miller isn't either, but who do you replace him with? Miller vs. Kreider, and Miller gets picked because while he has made dumbass mistakes and not produced as much as any of us would like, he was much more engaged in the play than Kreider was the majority of the time before Kreider got sent down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Halpern - 0. Boyle - 1. Miller - 2. Powe - 0. Bickel - 0. Pyatt - 4. Asham - 1. That's a serious issue. BUT IT'S WHAT TORTS WANTS. This team is a "jam" fest when it should be playing a more wide open system.

The entire bottom 6 is a black hole. It's a disgrace. It's why I was clamoring for a real 3C before the season started.
Agreed, it is an issue. But you really think Torts wouldn't want to upgrade any one of those guys if he could? Please tell me one of two things:

1. Who within the organization do you replace any of those guys with that is an improvement (ignoring Bickel - I agree with you there, and don't understand Torts' love for him)?

2. If you want to go outside of the organization, tell me who you would trade for (realistic please), sign, etc that improves the bottom six, doesn't become a reliability defensively, and fits under the remaining cap space?

Sather has at least 2 pretty ****** contracts that he has brought here in Nash and Richards (I love Nash, but to say he isn't making too much money is a bit ridiculous; it was a contract that Columbus offered him in order to keep him there -- they had the space and didn't have the leverage - I mean, it's Columbus - so they had to inflate the $$). Those two contracts (and the Hamrlik pick up -- I know we can get out if we want and his contract is up at the end of the year, but $3.5 mil per year, really?) limit the cap space you have left to actually do much with that bottom 6.

But how is this on Torts? He probably has some say or input in who we acquire or who Sather expresses an interest in, but Sather ultimately is the bottom line on putting the personnel together and is the one who constructed this team. I don't buy that Torts wouldn't want to upgrade the bottom 6 if the right deal/player came along. I mean, you said it right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Torts calls out the top guys, and they don't respond. The way the team is constructed right now they're not going to win unless Nash, Gaborik, Richards, Stepan, Callahan, and Hagelin are on fire. Look at the goal totals. The Rangers have scored 65 goals this season. 44 of those goals are from those 6 players.


--

I constantly see people saying **** like "I've yet to see Torts outcoach another coach in a game this year."

Yea? Please explain to me what you think that looks like. What does he have to do to 'outcoach' another coach? Cuz if he doesn't change the lines then the response is "OMG HE DOESN'T ADAPT. MAN IS STUBBORN." But if he does, then it is "OMG HE'S ****IN WITH THE LINES TOO MUCH WHAT ABOUT TEAM CHEMISTRY." The reality is that he does a decent job with matchups. When they're on the road, of course it is going to be harder to get the matchups you want - you have the last change (I actually think he does a pretty good job at this though as well; he clearly seems to tell guys who he wants them matched up against and they know when to change if possible after a faceoff).

What would you like him to do to 'outcoach' in-game? Do you want him to go jump on the ice and punch one of the opposing players in the face as they're about to get a breakaway? He can't play the game for his players. If they play ******, no matter how well he coaches or how good his system is, they will lose. All of this not to mention you have no clue what he is saying or telling the players to do differently or otherwise during the game...

--

This leads to another point -- when people complain about his constant line juggling. I'm not defending the practice in general, but the example from the other night of putting Haley on the top 2 lines... I don't get the *****ing there. Haley showed up to play; the players he replaced didn't. And were you not watching the game? He had one of the best chances to score all night... Bad example, stop *****ing about that move.

A lot of his line juggling has to do with who is playing well on any given night (I'm fairly certain he even says this in one of the Behind the Benches). He wants those players out there, so he finds a way to get them out there. I'll agree that in general I think this approach doesn't take into account linemate chemistry as much as it should -- but it isn't always a bad thing (a la the Haley bump up, or even as a motivational tool). If a player has a competitive bone in their body, being demoted from the 1st line to the 3rd line (Gabby) should piss them off and light a fire under their ass to play better. Unfortunately, so far this hasn't been the case -- and honestly I think that says more about Gabby than about Torts. And while I'd like to believe the baseless speculation that he is playing so poorly because he is injured, I just don't buy it at this point.

--

Last point I'll make is that though I'm defending Torts overall, I don't like every decision he makes - but who is perfect? Yes, I blame him at least partially for a bad powerplay. And yes, despite the point I made about Haley and Gabby, I generally think the constant line juggling from game to game doesn't really help. But overall I think the guy has done a fine job.

While he may deserve some of the blame for a mediocre start, you can't lay it all at his feet. If you've watched any of the games this year, you know that when this team shows up to play a full 60 minutes, they can hang with any team in the league (and yes, this is while playing Torts' system). They just haven't done that on a consistent basis (what do you expect with 6-7 new roster players, no training camp, lockout shortened season?). And yea, you can say Torts needs to motivate them (and he does need to find a way to do this)... but they are NHL players and adults - extremely competitive individuals who are living the dream - if they can't motivate themselves to show up and play each night, then I can't look to a coach (who has slowly overseen improvement in the team, brought them to the ECF last year and almost won a Jack Adams) and **** on him for some pretty lackluster individual and team performances from a team that should be doing a lot better than it is.


Last edited by Richter Scale: 03-15-2013 at 07:32 PM.
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Old
03-15-2013, 07:38 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Are you implying that the lack of a "more wide open system" is the only thing stopping these bums from scoring more goals?
Certainly not. I'm implying that the jamjamjamjam mentality has left the Rangers with two lines incapable of scoring, and two lines not playing to their potential because of it.

[DISCLAIMER: I know you posted a lot more, and I cut and edited a lot of your quotes. I'm responding to your whole post, but cut and chose specific topics for the sake of the thread]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
Agreed, it is an issue. But you really think Torts wouldn't want to upgrade any one of those guys if he could? Please tell me one of two things:

1. Who within the organization do you replace any of those guys with that is an improvement (ignoring Bickel - I agree with you there, and don't understand Torts' love for him)?

2. If you want to go outside of the organization, tell me who you would trade for (realistic please), sign, etc that improves the bottom six, doesn't become a reliability defensively, and fits under the remaining cap space?
He can, he chooses not to. Christian Thomas who is an offensive player came up here for a cup of coffee, looked good, and was sent back down. Kreider has a million times the offensive ability than any of the aforementioned players, but does not get the shot. Why? No jam. Mats Zuccarello was banished to Russia after reviving the Rangers PP late last season, and unfortunately suffering a terribly timed injury. Why? No jam.

It's not my job to do that, but I'd love if Sather took a look at Nick Foligno out of Columbus. Mike Ribiero should also be considered come the trade deadline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
I constantly see people saying **** like "I've yet to see Torts outcoach another coach in a game this year."

Yea? Please explain to me what you think that looks like. What does he have to do to 'outcoach' another coach? Cuz if he doesn't change the lines then the response is "OMG HE DOESN'T ADAPT. MAN IS STUBBORN." But if he does, then it is "OMG HE'S ****IN WITH THE LINES TOO MUCH WHAT ABOUT TEAM CHEMISTRY." The reality is that he does a decent job with matchups. When they're on the road, of course it is going to be harder to get the matchups you want - you have the last change (I actually think he does a pretty good job at this though as well; he clearly seems to tell guys who he wants them matched up against and they know when to change if possible after a faceoff).
Simple. It was quite clear yesterday that the Jets were very willing to take the boards away from the Rangers. How many times did you see the defensemen throw the puck up the boards without looking only to go right to the waiting Jets player? The book is out on the Rangers. Force them to use the middle of the ice, and take away the board play. Why? Because Tortorella won't adjust. His system is board play, his system is dump and chase.

Another example. Every time we play Ottawa and the Devils it's a **** show. Why? Because dump and chase hockey DOES NOT WORK when you're playing a mobile goalie who can move the puck quickly. Dump it in, Craig Anderson plays it and it's going the other way. Dump it in, Marty Brodeur flings it up the ice to Kovalchuk on the breakaway.

Last example. Teams know how to beat Lundqvist. Get in his face, don't let him see the shot, deflections and bang in rebounds. It wasn't Torts last night BUT LUNDQVIST HIMSELF! who had to call out his teammates to clear the ****ing crease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
This leads to the another point -- when people complain about his constant line juggling. I'm not defending the practice in general, but the example from the other night of putting Haley on the top 2 lines... I don't get the *****ing there. Haley showed up to play; the players he replaced didn't. And were you not watching the game? He had one of the best chances to score all night... Bad example, stop *****ing about that move.

A lot of his line juggling has to do with who is playing well on any given night (I'm fairly certain he even says this in one of the Behind the Benches). He wants those players out there, so he finds a way to get them out there. I'll agree that in general I think this approach doesn't take into account linemate chemistry as much as it should -- but it isn't always a bad thing (a la the Haley bump up, or even as a motivational tool). If a player has a competitive bone in their body, being demoted from the 1st line to the 3rd line (Gabby) should piss them off and light a fire under their ass to play better. Unfortunately, so far this hasn't been the case -- and honestly I think that says more about Gabby than about Torts. And while I'd like to believe the baseless speculation that he is playing so poorly because he is injured, I just don't buy it at this point.
Not a bad point you make here. Thing is, do you really expect Gaborik to bust out of his slump continuing to trudge along on the left wing, with Brian Boyle as his center after you move Haley up? I sure as **** don't, and that's on Torts. Gaborik scores 40 goals last season on the RW, and Torts moves him over to the LW. Doesn't make sense to me. You want to blame someone for Gaborik this season, sure you can put the onus on Gabby, but a lot of that falls on Torts as well.

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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
They just haven't done that on a consistent basis (what do you expect with 6-7 new roster players, no training camp, lockout shortened season?).
At this point in the season, this is officially a bull**** excuse. He's had more than enough time at this point to put it all together, and it's falling apart in front of our eyes.

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03-15-2013, 07:50 PM
  #810
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Certainly not. I'm implying that the jamjamjamjam mentality has left the Rangers with two lines incapable of scoring, and two lines not playing to their potential because of it..
Same system last season, and Gaborik scored 41 goals. Richards played infinitely better as well.

I suppose its just easier to blame the prickly coach than admit the players stink right now.

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03-15-2013, 07:55 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Same system last season, and Gaborik scored 41 goals. Richards played infinitely better as well.

I suppose its just easier to blame the prickly coach than admit the players stink right now.
Again. 40+ goals playing right wing. What position does Gabby play this year? Who put him there?

I'm not apologizing for Gaborik's play. He's to blame too. But put him back on RW and let him get back to his game, if he continues to suck, okay we have an issue. He's playing out of his comfort zone.

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03-15-2013, 09:41 PM
  #812
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Torts is bad at coaching.

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03-15-2013, 10:26 PM
  #813
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As usual, it's not a simple answer.

The lockout and injuries affect all teams, so that isn't an excuse for anyone. If anything, guys who were smart would've used this once-in-a-career opportunity with an extended break to come back bigger, faster, stronger, and better than ever. It was the perfect scenario for older guys to rejuvenate and extend their careers.

The players, however, are a problem. It's obvious several guys decided to have an extended vacation knowing a shortened schedule meant no harsh training camp. They knew they could take it easy and not worry. It shows even 20 games in that several guys simply didn't do their due diligence during the off season to be in shape. Considering Torts even stated last June they had to be better and work harder (probably knowing the temptation of having so much time off), that's obviously not on the coaching.

The Nash trade. This was a team with moderate depth, which was lost getting a star player. Did the Rangers win the trade? Pretty much yes, but it also killed the depth and got rid of a huge amount of the work ethic and grit on the team - parts that are essential to the system. Was it a move that had to be made? No, not really. Looking back, it could've been better to give up more in the way of picks and prospects. Ultimately, however, you're going to do that trade 99 times out of 100. Still, the depth pieces that Sather acquired afterwords do not fit the system and that is on Sather.

The System. Overall, it's a solid system, but it requires total buy in, top flight conditioning, and a monster work ethic. That fit the team last year, but it sure doesn't this season. Constant line changes, trying to force players into being something they aren't, and a lack of consistency are problems that eat away at the psyche of a team. We are seeing that now. That is on the coaching staff.

Really, everyone is to blame on this one.

Would I get rid of the current coaching staff? Maybe....if the slide continues another few weeks. If a guy like Laviolette was available. The biggest problem is not having that first round draft pick. If the Rangers still had it, I'd be more willing to blow things up and reboot. But, without it, it's really hard to justify a change until the season is over.

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03-15-2013, 10:43 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
It's obvious several guys decided to have an extended vacation knowing a shortened schedule meant no harsh training camp. They knew they could take it easy and not worry.
Or maybe just maybe they're tired of sacrificing their bodies every night laying down on the ice, not having the freedom to make the plays they're well-suited for, getting yelled at, and then being hung out to dry in the media afterwards

Ever think about that?

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03-15-2013, 11:03 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
The entire bottom 6 is a black hole. It's a disgrace. It's why I was clamoring for a real 3C before the season started.
That third line center thread before the season started was one of the biggest jokes I have ever seen. People coming out in droves to say that not only Boyle is an adequate third line center, but one of the better ones in the league...they were all SO right!

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03-16-2013, 12:15 AM
  #816
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Can't blame Tortorella for the first two seasons. The team just didn't have a lot of talent before last season thanks to Sather's numerous and repeated errors in judgment, and he did very well last year when given a normal team.

There are a lot of things about Tortorella I don't care for, but I have a hard time faulting him for the mediocre start this season. A lot of roster turnover, the lockout, no training camp, etc.

- Camp got this team into incredible shape last year. That was a big help down the stretch and into the postseason.

- I don't even mind most of the moves. The Nash move was a big risk in terms of the cap, but there is no denying he is a very good player. Would have preferred to wait for Bobby Ryan, but oh well. The Halpern move was great. Asham is a good player; he's been hurt a lot. Should have kept Feds over Pyatt, IMO (Feds was the best player on the line with Boyle and Prust most of the time). Smart not to overpay Prust.

The problem is, with all the roster turnover, there are still noticeable holes. Boyle is not a third line player in this league. Michael Del Zotto isn't a great playmaker; his strengths do not lie in the offensive zone, but rather in transition. Gaborik is Gaborik. Richards isn't done, but he is probably nowhere near optimal conditioning. Cup contenders usually don't play Gilroy/Eminger/Bickel.

Certainly, there are things that Tortorella could be doing better, but there simply isn't enough reason to fire him. A coach doesn't deserve to be fired if there are ample circumstances, out of the coach's control, acting as real detriments to his team's success.

I can't stand some things about this guy, but I think it would be ridiculous to can someone who took a team to the conference finals after one down season that was fraught with frustrating occurrences.

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03-16-2013, 12:20 AM
  #817
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No in-game adjustments, what-so-ever. Line changes =/= adjustment. How about changing the actual strategy? The opposition is taking away the walls? Maybe try the middle of the ice. The opposition keeps faking out the shot blocking winger? Maybe he should pressure the point man as soon as he gets the puck. But no. The players are always told to "stick with the system," as if the other team will stop what they're doing so that the Rangers can execute their system. That is my biggest grief with him. Too focused on the system, which seems to not be working in our favor, at all. No enough focus on actual strategy/what the other team is doing.

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03-16-2013, 08:18 AM
  #818
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
Or maybe just maybe they're tired of sacrificing their bodies every night laying down on the ice, not having the freedom to make the plays they're well-suited for, getting yelled at, and then being hung out to dry in the media afterwards

Ever think about that?
Show me one person on these boards who wouldn't exchange places with any of the guys on the team in a heartbeat. Playing in the NHL is one hell of a great lifestyle, screaming lunatic behind the bench or not.

Look, I completely agree that Torts is a nutbar. Listening to his act for a few years would wear on anyone. But, ultimately, if you want to have a career in the NHL and stay in the league, it's up to you to produce results. If a screaming coach is enough to throw some guys completely off their game, those nancys need to pack up their things and head down to the East Coast League, cause they can't cut it in the NHL.

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03-16-2013, 10:09 AM
  #819
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
Or maybe just maybe they're tired of sacrificing their bodies every night laying down on the ice, not having the freedom to make the plays they're well-suited for, getting yelled at, and then being hung out to dry in the media afterwards

Ever think about that?
Those poor players. They must be from all those demands and accountability. Lets let them play soft, Euro hockey and maybe they'll be , and results will follow!

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03-16-2013, 11:09 AM
  #820
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Can't blame Tortorella for the first two seasons. The team just didn't have a lot of talent before last season thanks to Sather's numerous and repeated errors in judgment, and he did very well last year when given a normal team.

There are a lot of things about Tortorella I don't care for, but I have a hard time faulting him for the mediocre start this season. A lot of roster turnover, the lockout, no training camp, etc.

- Camp got this team into incredible shape last year. That was a big help down the stretch and into the postseason.

- I don't even mind most of the moves. The Nash move was a big risk in terms of the cap, but there is no denying he is a very good player. Would have preferred to wait for Bobby Ryan, but oh well. The Halpern move was great. Asham is a good player; he's been hurt a lot. Should have kept Feds over Pyatt, IMO (Feds was the best player on the line with Boyle and Prust most of the time). Smart not to overpay Prust.

The problem is, with all the roster turnover, there are still noticeable holes. Boyle is not a third line player in this league. Michael Del Zotto isn't a great playmaker; his strengths do not lie in the offensive zone, but rather in transition. Gaborik is Gaborik. Richards isn't done, but he is probably nowhere near optimal conditioning. Cup contenders usually don't play Gilroy/Eminger/Bickel.

Certainly, there are things that Tortorella could be doing better, but there simply isn't enough reason to fire him. A coach doesn't deserve to be fired if there are ample circumstances, out of the coach's control, acting as real detriments to his team's success.

I can't stand some things about this guy, but I think it would be ridiculous to can someone who took a team to the conference finals after one down season that was fraught with frustrating occurrences.
One down season ? More like one good season . Lets not forget he blew a 3-1 series lead and benched the player playing the hardest on the team ( Avery ) and got himself kicked out Of a game . The guy is a circus clown . I can't wait until this hypocrite is back working at NHL Or NBC or TSN and people get to crap on him . He's a side show clown .

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03-16-2013, 11:13 AM
  #821
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
One down season ? More like one good season . Lets not forget he blew a 3-1 series lead and benched the player playing the hardest on the team ( Avery ) and got himself kicked out Of a game . The guy is a circus clown . I can't wait until this hypocrite is back working at NHL Or NBC or TSN and people get to crap on him . He's a side show clown .
They didn't deserve to have a 3-1 lead. The Caps were a better team. Again, he's far from perfect, and nothing proves that more than his inability to make the most of potentially valuable assets by adapting his own methods (Avery, Zherdev, Drury, MZA, etc.). Still, until 11-12, he never had a normal roster.

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03-16-2013, 11:16 AM
  #822
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Serious question for those who don't like Torts.

Would you prefer Renney?

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03-16-2013, 11:18 AM
  #823
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Those poor players. They must be from all those demands and accountability. Lets let them play soft, Euro hockey and maybe they'll be , and results will follow!
what's the point if your coach rips you night in and night out for every little thing. After a while you're not going to play hard any more

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03-16-2013, 11:23 AM
  #824
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Serious question for those who don't like Torts.

Would you prefer Renney?
No, but why is that the only option?

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03-16-2013, 11:24 AM
  #825
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Maybe someone should stand up to Torts. I recall hearing/reading stories that Messier would pull this move against Keenan to cool the volatility.

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