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Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VIII

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Old
03-15-2013, 09:34 PM
  #76
Tiranis
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2nd coaching loss in a row. Good job, Arniel.

Edit: Haydar, Sweatt and Gordon are -2 on the night despite scoring an ES goal. -1 last game. Spent the whole game hemmed in their own zone. Haydar on the point even after he surrendered a SHG.

What. The. ****.


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03-15-2013, 09:45 PM
  #77
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Wow that sucks. I'm sad to say that I don't really expect any repercussions for it though. Vets are given so much leeway here that it's painful.

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03-15-2013, 09:46 PM
  #78
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Canucks really need a new farm team. one that is more loyal to developing player in the Canuck's interest than Darren Haydar.

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Old
03-15-2013, 09:47 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
Canucks really need a new farm team. one that is more loyal to developing player in the Canuck's interest than Darren Haydar.
Canucks hired Arniel. I doubt he has a gun to his head considering his employer are the Canucks. (That said, perhaps there are things going on behind the scenes that I'm not aware of. I don't know.)

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03-15-2013, 09:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
Canucks really need a new farm team. one that is more loyal to developing player in the Canuck's interest than Darren Haydar.
I put the entire blame on arniel. MacT was a much better developmental coach IMO

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03-15-2013, 10:09 PM
  #81
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Coaches loss.

His power play alignment has created chances for the other team all year. Other team has a total read on it. They just pressure Haydar and get breakaways and 2 on 1 all game. Happens time after time. No way you go with that alignment late in the third in a tie game. Clueless move.

Terrible game by Haydar. Anyone wondering why he can't play in the NHL only had to watch his crap in this game. Throws the puck around like he is playing pick-up hockey. Has talent but doesn't really want to play real hockey. Just have fun and toss the puck around.

Sweatt's play once again has fallen off. Too bad because he was looking good. Absolutely screwed up the late PP with senseless decisions and turnovers. Gordon has not come off injury well and he too struggled.

Could be that match-ups were a factor but the first line played like very poorly.

Jensen basically benched most of the third - I guess to give time for Haydar to do his thing. Did show plenty in this game. Like to see him with Schroeder. Player with speed, size and reach.

Schroeder had played fine but again missed an open chance with 5 seconds to go. I know Tiranis and I have a serious disagreement here but his lack of touch around the net is disturbing. Also had chance to setup teammate on a clear 2 on 1 and skated in too far and lost any angle for the pass. You can say that the defenseman made a good play but if you are going to be an important offensive player at the NHL level you have to have the knack to make that play. And he is not playing against NHL defensemen here. Again he is not going to make as anything other than a dangerous offensive player and he simply not that right now.

Price has some excellent speed. Skating is not going to an issue. Spotted in and not really any glaring problems. Has good size. He is a prospect. I's say a better one than Polosek. Thought Polosek looked ok and good at times on the PK but you can see he has a basic problem with quickness. Maybe an emergent Rome type at best.

Cannata gave them every chance to win. But sloppy play in their own end by the Wolves just created too many chances. Would have been a theft if Cannata had managed to steal that game.

Hogs are way better organized than the Wolves. Play like a team whereas the Wolves are all over the place defensively.


Don't know why Andersson was not playing. If he was pulled to keep the lame Vandermeer in the game then another knuckle-headed decision by Arneil.

Thought Connauton actually had a good game. Played steady. Moved the puck out well and was not running around. Then, of course, he falls down and gives up a huge chance. Yet in this game I think you did see improvement overall. Patience just maybe a virtue with this player. However, it's very tough to maintain it at times.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:17 PM
  #82
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We're having disagreements because it's one thing to not be dangerous and it's another thing to be dangerous and not convert. One doesn't give you any hope, while the other leads to goals via simple percentages. That line had 10 SOG between the three of them, not to mention all the point shots that were generated. They were by far the most dangerous trio on the ice for the Wolves and that's with limited playing time due to Arniel force-feeding ice-time to the 1st line.

Sedins sometimes generate 10+ chances a night and end up with no goals. That's just how things go. But generating chances is the only way you can be sure that those goals will eventually come.

But primarily it's the fact that you show no patience with making predictions of a player's career based on tiny sample sizes. That then leads to such ridiculous statements as considering a buyout for Jason Garrison 5 games into the season. Or going from saying that Schroeder's potential is sky high after he scores 2 goals and has a few good games to saying he'll never be back in the NHL and is a marginal talent.


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03-15-2013, 10:19 PM
  #83
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That's incredible that Arniel plays the Canucks prospects like AV would a Canucks rookie since it's his job to develop and play those guys.

Is there a way Gillis can get rid of players like Haydar/Sterling?

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03-15-2013, 10:32 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
That's incredible that Arniel plays the Canucks prospects like AV would a Canucks rookie since it's his job to develop and play those guys.

Is there a way Gillis can get rid of players like Haydar/Sterling?
I'm pretty sure the Canucks have to supply the Wolves with AHL talent to keep them competitive. Unfortunately the AHL talent is in the AHL for a reason. Haydar is this seasons Mancari.

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03-15-2013, 10:34 PM
  #85
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I'm not saying Schroeder's line did not create chances. What I am saying is Schroeder is not converting (as you seem to be saying) them.

Having that ability to put away chances is a huge skill. And, as I see it, it is something Schroeder must have to advance to the NHL. That, to me, is the critical element of Schroeder's game that is missing. It is something that can be improved through experience and work but it is also something that you are born with. I think it is an open question whether Schroeder has that knack and until he shows it, it puts his future in doubt.

Schroeder's size is a a major liability. The way he can over come this is to be point producer. It is like the Desharnais situation. If Desharnais is not scoring he doesn't make it. But Desharnais has shown that if he gets around the net with the puck, he can put it away. When Schroeder begins to show that kind of talent then we can get more excited. But until he does, our enthusiasm, in my opinion, has to be muted.

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03-15-2013, 10:35 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
That's incredible that Arniel plays the Canucks prospects like AV would a Canucks rookie since it's his job to develop and play those guys.

Is there a way Gillis can get rid of players like Haydar/Sterling?
They are the Wolves property, not ours so it might be a little tough.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
I'm not saying Schroeder's line did not create chances. What I am saying is Schroeder is not converting (as you seem to be saying) them.

Having that ability to put away chances is a huge skill. And, as I see it, it is something Schroeder must have to advance to the NHL. That, to me, is the critical element of Schroeder's game that is missing. It is something that can be improved through experience and work but it is also something that you are born with. I think it is an open question whether Schroeder has that knack and until he shows it, it puts his future in doubt.

Schroeder's size is a a major liability. The way he can over come this is to be point producer. It is like the Desharnais situation. If Desharnais is not scoring he doesn't make it. But Desharnais has shown that if he gets around the net with the puck, he can put it away. When Schroeder begins to show that kind of talent then we can get more excited. But until he does, our enthusiasm, in my opinion, has to be muted.
At his best, when he was a year older, Desharnais scored 28 goals in 60 games. Are you saying Desharnais was creating less than a chance per game that season?

Schroeder has 3 points in the last 2 games. If he keeps converting at the rate that he is, he'll end up with a higher PPG pace than Desharnais ever did and be one of the best players to ever play in the AHL. That's why I'm saying you have unreasonable expectations. Guys simply don't convert on every chance they get. Or every 2 chances. Or even every 3 chances.

There's a reason shooting percentage is around 10-15% for most top AHL players. You get more goals by generating more chances and more shots, that's what that line is doing and they're doing it more than than prior to Schroeder getting the call-up.

I've now seen 6 games in a row by Schroeder where he has truly looked like a player that stands out at this level and he has 3 goals and 7 points in those 6 games.

(And Schroeder's shooting percentage is already at 16%.)


Last edited by Tiranis: 03-15-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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Old
03-15-2013, 10:50 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
That's incredible that Arniel plays the Canucks prospects like AV would a Canucks rookie since it's his job to develop and play those guys.

Is there a way Gillis can get rid of players like Haydar/Sterling?
Agreed. I bet he's hoping to earn another NHL job or he's suffering some delusion that he's coaching in the NHL

I can't believe that yann sauve is that much worse than Jim vandermeer.
If arniel doesn't put prospects in a position to succeed and make some effort to work with players to develop their confidence and skills, then he should be fired ASAP.

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03-15-2013, 10:59 PM
  #89
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I can't believe that yann sauve is that much worse than Jim vandermeer.
In contrast with posters who know better, I'll got out on a limb and say that the Canucks will re-sign Sauve. His demotion to the ECHL was obviously bad news, but he's been doing well in Kalamazoo, at least statistically, and he's a high enough pick that I think management will be reluctant to give up on him. (I'm not saying you've stated anything different; I'm just using your comment to turn the topic to Sauve.)

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03-15-2013, 11:08 PM
  #90
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I'm pretty sure the Canucks have to supply the Wolves with AHL talent to keep them competitive. Unfortunately the AHL talent is in the AHL for a reason. Haydar is this seasons Mancari.
yeah but we signed Mancari last season. Haydar is not signed with Canucks.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:10 PM
  #91
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In contrast with posters who know better, I'll got out on a limb and say that the Canucks will re-sign Sauve. His demotion to the ECHL was obviously bad news, but he's been doing well in Kalamazoo, at least statistically, and he's a high enough pick that I think management will be reluctant to give up on him. (I'm not saying you've stated anything different; I'm just using your comment to turn the topic to Sauve.)
It's possible but he's also 23 years old and being in the ECHL at that age (after getting 2 years in the AHL) is more than a little underwhelming.

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03-15-2013, 11:21 PM
  #92
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It's possible but he's also 23 years old and being in the ECHL at that age (after getting 2 years in the AHL) is more than a little underwhelming.
Defensemen do sometimes take a little longer to develop. I think he has all the tools to succeed and maybe the Canucks can see that he still has promise.

Personally, I'm willing to give prospects who've played under arniel the benefit of the doubt. The fact that arniel didn't think much of him and sent him down to the ECHL doesn't mean that much to me. The fact that MacT felt high enough of him to keep him in the lineup all of last season means more to me.

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03-15-2013, 11:24 PM
  #93
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Defensemen do sometimes take a little longer to develop. I think he has all the tools to succeed and maybe the Canucks can see that he still has promise.

Personally, I'm willing to give prospects who've played under arniel the benefit of the doubt. The fact that arniel didn't think much of him and sent him down to the ECHL doesn't mean that much to me. The fact that MacT felt high enough of him to keep him in the lineup all of last season means more to me.
Yeah, it's hard to say. But those 9 points in 76 games don't inspire much confidence given that he's not primarily a shutdown D. He's supposed to be a two-way defenseman with more of a lean towards defense. Guys like that usually produce decent numbers in the AHL when they have some NHL potential.

Even a guy like Aaron Rome scored 24 points in 64 games at the same age. We'll see I guess. My feeling is that it's not worth taking up a contract spot as there are better defensemen available in the AHL ranks without an NHL contract.

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03-15-2013, 11:24 PM
  #94
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Point is that Schroeder has not had any real break out offensively yet at the AHL level. When he came up he was something like 100th in League scoring even after being given plenty of PP time. Since his return he has (as you say ) three points. If he keeps that up then we can see a breakout. But the sample size is too small to get conclusive about anything.

I've watched Schroeder this year and last year and have not seen him put away his chances like you would want. He shows speed, he shows good effort defensively and he provides good break out pass opportunities. But there have been many blown offensive chances. Tonite there were three. I believe that when you are trying to assess Schroeder it's a major factor to be considered.

You might say, "well give him more time and it's surely going to come". You maybe right but until it does it is fair commentary to point out Schroeder's lack of finish.

Ultimately Schroeder has to dominate at the AHL level to be considered NHL material (specially in a top 6 role - and I don't see him suited to bottom 6 play). To do this he has be the type of player who produces at a high level. I have seen some good things out of Schroeder but I have not seen this. His point production rate of something like .67 per game is not going do it to get him to the next level. And that's what we have to go on right now. The rest is projection maybe muddled with a bit of anticipation

The reason I mention Desharnais is because this is what IMO Schroeder has to be. Again you may say he is on the road to being that. But until he is that kind of player
you can legitimately IMO raise concerns about him achieving that level.

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03-15-2013, 11:35 PM
  #95
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Yeah, it's hard to say. But those 9 points in 76 games don't inspire much confidence given that he's not primarily a shutdown D. He's supposed to be a two-way defenseman with more of a lean towards defense. Guys like that usually produce decent numbers in the AHL when they have some NHL potential.

Even a guy like Aaron Rome scored 24 points in 64 games at the same age.
I think he is developing some of that offense right now albeit in the ECHL. One difference being that he is put in a role where he could put up some numbers. I suspect that in the AHL, he was put in a role of a defensive dman. Possibly putting him in he right situation, like Jason garrison in Florida, he can develop some of that offense.

It looks to me like Polasek is put into that purely defensive role this season

I think that the Canucks probably recognize that a setback occurred when he got hit by a car so that may factor in their decision to retain him.

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03-16-2013, 12:01 AM
  #96
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Perhaps Schroeder just isn't that good of a finisher? But as a playmaking center, as long as he's setting up his linemates for scoring chances and helping that line as a whole generate offense, I don't feel it would be a huge problem. Perhaps he'll never become a great goal-scorer at this level but the rest of his game can make up for it.

The label of "they can't finish" isn't unheard of when it comes to our prospects, and I'm willing to bet that as he gets older and more experienced his finish will get even better and he'll learn to "bear down" on them. And we're talking about a guy who's actually skilled to begin with too. He's already got a 21-goal season under his belt so he's not inept in that area either.

I just think he needs to continue working on his shooting in particular and going to the net consistently. That's when he'll regularly give himself opportunities to finish those chances. All about the percentages.


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03-16-2013, 12:13 AM
  #97
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Sauve's a weird case in that the coaching seems to have been a factor in him regressing, while he was Steady Eddy last year under MacT. But then again you can't totally throw Arniel's opinion out the window either because he did see that Andersson was good enough to make the team out of training camp.

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03-16-2013, 12:20 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Yeah, it's hard to say. But those 9 points in 76 games don't inspire much confidence given that he's not primarily a shutdown D. He's supposed to be a two-way defenseman with more of a lean towards defense. Guys like that usually produce decent numbers in the AHL when they have some NHL potential.

Even a guy like Aaron Rome scored 24 points in 64 games at the same age. We'll see I guess. My feeling is that it's not worth taking up a contract spot as there are better defensemen available in the AHL ranks without an NHL contract.
If you aren't occasionally folding winning hands you aren't playing poker right. Maybe he is an NHLer with more development but you have to cut some one occasionally. I think with Sauve we might need to fold, at some point the contract slot is worth more than the player's perceived potential.

Best hope would be trade throw in or get him to sign an 1 year AHL team contract not an NHL team one. I'd hate to see us lose one of the college UFA's because of lack of spots.

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03-16-2013, 10:44 AM
  #99
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If you aren't occasionally folding winning hands you aren't playing poker right. Maybe he is an NHLer with more development but you have to cut some one occasionally. I think with Sauve we might need to fold, at some point the contract slot is worth more than the player's perceived potential.

Best hope would be trade throw in or get him to sign an 1 year AHL team contract not an NHL team one. I'd hate to see us lose one of the college UFA's because of lack of spots.
While I understand this argument, I also think there are enough expiring contracts with players with little to no upside that will expire after this year thus freeing up contract spots.


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03-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #100
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What is going to happen with or goalie situation? I can't imagine they bring lack up as backup next season after his injuries. Is Climie not brought back and do the go with the Lack/Cannata duo?

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