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Old
03-15-2013, 10:22 PM
  #126
ahthorne
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Timonen is a top-pairing defensemen. Coburn and Schenn are second pairing defensemen. Coburn can play like a top-tier 2nd pairing guy, and Schenn has potential to be an Adam Foote version 2.0 - whatever type of defensemen that would make him. Grossmann is playing like a 2nd pairing defensemen but on a good team he should be on the 3rd pair (think Roman Polak, Matt Greene, etc.) and Gervais/Foster should honestly either be in the AHL or at least not playing on our team. Gustafsson and co. are all still AHL quality defenders but they have potential and show shown flashes of NHL quality play. I think Gustafsson needs more seasoning. Meszaros is a bandaid but he showed how good he could be in 2010-11, although he's never been more than a 3rd pairing guy on our squad to much success. Again, he can have 2nd pairing talent but should be stuck on the 3rd pair.

Since this team has no #1 defender/top-pair, they need three '2nd pairing' pairs until they can find a top defender. Our #6 slot needs a big upgrade in the meantime while we look for a #1, and that also opens room up for another defender to be used when acquiring a #1 (Coburn/Meszaros, specifically).

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03-15-2013, 10:37 PM
  #127
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Coburn, Grossmann, and Luke have all been fine d-men for us, but they are defensive guys and ideally you'd pair them with solid PMD types. In the past few years the Flyers have lost first Pronger, then Carle, and never have replaced what those guys brought to the offense in terms of making the first pass out of our own end and starting the offense.

I'm not sure I see how Homer manages to pry a stud like Whitney out of Edmonton, but a PMD has to be the 1st and 2nd priority this summer. He doesn't even have to be great in his own end, competent defensively is enough as long as you pair him with a responsible guy like Grossmann.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:04 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
Coburn, Grossmann, and Luke have all been fine d-men for us, but they are defensive guys and ideally you'd pair them with solid PMD types. In the past few years the Flyers have lost first Pronger, then Carle, and never have replaced what those guys brought to the offense in terms of making the first pass out of our own end and starting the offense.

I'm not sure I see how Homer manages to pry a stud like Whitney out of Edmonton, but a PMD has to be the 1st and 2nd priority this summer. He doesn't even have to be great in his own end, competent defensively is enough as long as you pair him with a responsible guy like Grossmann.
EDM isn't going anywhere so Whitney may be available.

Whitney, Campbell, Liles, are probably all available fairly cheaply (3rd+mid level prospect).
JBo probably available but more expensive.

Kimo-Schenn
Coburn-Mez
Grossman -Whitney/Liles/Campbell

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:06 PM
  #129
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Flyers should pick up Adam Hall and waive Knuble. Hall is a good 13th forward that is strong on FOs.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:17 PM
  #130
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I never said they were a #1. Either one has played like a #2/3. Not like a #4/5 as was claimed.
Well they have Kimmo, Gus and Mez who all should have puck moving skills, and the team still struggles to gain the nuetral zone. So im skeptical Schenn or Grossman are #2's right now. More like #4's who need a strong offensive partner in order to cover up their lack of offense.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:55 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
I'm not sure I see how Homer manages to pry a stud like Whitney out of Edmonton, but a PMD has to be the 1st and 2nd priority this summer. He doesn't even have to be great in his own end, competent defensively is enough as long as you pair him with a responsible guy like Grossmann.
Sarcasm?

My dream line-up on defense give the current state of the defense:

Coburn - Shattenkirk* (or comparable)
Timonen - Schenn
Grossmann - Rundblad* (or comparable... or somebody we draft!)

... comparables to Shattenkirk (super unlikely to move) would include guys like Keith Yandle or even younger guys like Zach Bogosian. Comparables to Rundblad would be unproven but known young, puck-moving commodities around the NHL - like Jon Blum, etc.

'Never happening' choice (franchise choice): Pietrangelo, etc.
1st choice (the #1 defender choice): Shattenkirk, Yandle, Bogosian, etc.
2nd choice (the decent choice): Bouwmeester, Campbell, etc.
3rd choice (the youth choice): Rundblad, etc.

Anybody like Ryan Whitney should not be an option. I don't think Shattenkirk or Yandle could be acquired without giving up a forward I wouldn't want to move or without moving our 1st rounder, however. I'd love Brian Campbell and then a young stud like Rundblad, however.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:56 PM
  #132
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If they can get Ryan Whitney for like a 5th round pick and a bad-decent prospect I'm all over it. There's no way he's worse than Gervais.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:58 PM
  #133
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If they can get Ryan Whitney for like a 5th round pick and a bad-decent prospect I'm all over it. There's no way he's worse than Gervais.
He's terrible. A scratch on the Oilers, that should say enough.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:59 PM
  #134
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Yandle has always been an option that I thought was likely, if not perfect. He's got some pretty scary advanced stats, right? Doesn't play the PK either, IIRC. But he's a good puck-mover who should be able to play some big minutes.
He would be exactly what we need. He can quarterback a power play and skate the puck through the damn neutral zone. We have no defenders right now that can take the puck from end to end. He would probably cost a good amount, but I don't believe it would be Couts or Schenn. Depending where we finish in the standing I would think about our first rounder.

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03-16-2013, 12:00 AM
  #135
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He's terrible. A scratch on the Oilers, that should say enough.
Feet and leg injuries i'm pretty sure have really really slowed him down. We think foster or others are terrible, wait till you see him play. He literally has no mobility right now.

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03-16-2013, 12:09 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
He would be exactly what we need. He can quarterback a power play and skate the puck through the damn neutral zone. We have no defenders right now that can take the puck from end to end. He would probably cost a good amount, but I don't believe it would be Couts or Schenn. Depending where we finish in the standing I would think about our first rounder.
Maybe Yandle becomes available now that OEL is signed.

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Feet and leg injuries i'm pretty sure have really really slowed him down. We think foster or others are terrible, wait till you see him play. He literally has no mobility right now.
Honestly he'd just be another Foster/Gervais/whatever failed experiment. Do not want. Would rather give Gustafsson playing time if/when the team is definitely out of the playoff race. If making a playoff charge, what we have now is better than adding Ryan Whitney even if Gervais is awful.

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:24 AM
  #137
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Hm maybe you guys are right. I haven't seen Whitney play a lot since he was with Pittsburgh.

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:27 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Feet and leg injuries i'm pretty sure have really really slowed him down. We think foster or others are terrible, wait till you see him play. He literally has no mobility right now.
Doesn't move the best, but a MUCH better defender than Foster - has a better first pass, sees the ice better, shot is comparable.

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:29 AM
  #139
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He can't move at all per EDM fans. He's the literal definition of pylon. You could offer them Foster for him straight up and they would take it

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:46 AM
  #140
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I think its time to target Yandle now.

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03-16-2013, 01:26 AM
  #141
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What would Yandle cost us?

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Old
03-16-2013, 03:53 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
Well they have Kimmo, Gus and Mez who all should have puck moving skills, and the team still struggles to gain the nuetral zone. So im skeptical Schenn or Grossman are #2's right now. More like #4's who need a strong offensive partner in order to cover up their lack of offense.
The issues with getting through the neutral zone haven't really been on the Dmen, though. Watch closely...you'll see it's the forwards who are really struggling. The Dmen are handing the puck off, generally without issue, and once the forwards have it they've struggled.

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Old
03-16-2013, 07:06 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
Well they have Kimmo, Gus and Mez who all should have puck moving skills, and the team still struggles to gain the nuetral zone. So im skeptical Schenn or Grossman are #2's right now. More like #4's who need a strong offensive partner in order to cover up their lack of offense.
Kimmo is 37 and regressing slowly, Gus is undersized and has yet to get his play back after recovering from a broken ankle, and Mesz (back surgery, torn achilles tendon and dislocated shoulder - all more or less within a year) is not - and maybe will never be again the player who won the Barry Ashbe a couple of years ago.
Looks solid on paper but reality sucks.

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:09 AM
  #144
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Coburn - Playing below expectations atm
Mez - Not back to form and I'm skeptical about his abilities now - hope he reestablishes himself
Foster - Okay for 4 games -- Now playing substandard
Gervais - For every good play he follows it with a bad one
Grossmann - Worth his weight - guy is a rock - a little slow but so sound positionally it is impressive as hell - makes good decisions all game
Gus - Not ready for a lot of minutes - still making mistakes - shows flashes but can't be relied upon heavily - but young
Schenn - good, hits everything, somewhat trustworthy, prone to mistakes once in awhile hopefully gets better with age
Kimmo - still damn good but aging

Definitely needs an upgrade. Outside of Kimmo, Schenn, Grossmann, I worry about the rest. Phantoms are full of backend guys -- need another talented D man to plug into the top 4.

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:19 AM
  #145
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What would Yandle cost us?
Far more than what he's worth. If people on here hated Carle, they'll kill Yandle.

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:27 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
Coburn, Grossmann, and Luke have all been fine d-men for us, but they are defensive guys and ideally you'd pair them with solid PMD types. In the past few years the Flyers have lost first Pronger, then Carle, and never have replaced what those guys brought to the offense in terms of making the first pass out of our own end and starting the offense.

I'm not sure I see how Homer manages to pry a stud like Whitney out of Edmonton, but a PMD has to be the 1st and 2nd priority this summer. He doesn't even have to be great in his own end, competent defensively is enough as long as you pair him with a responsible guy like Grossmann.
The guys we have now can make a good first pass. Lots of Carle's "first passes" went to his D partners, despite the occasional stretch pass (when it worked). Carle didn't bring much of anything special that those guys cannot do and his aversion to actually skating the puck out of the zone makes him a mediocre PMD at best imo. He was insulated and bolstered with the guys around him in philly and now his limitations are getting exposed in TB where he doesn't have that supporting cast. I honestly think Grossman, with his decisiveness, ability to skate with the puck and make a first pass, is better at puck moving than Carle. Schenn too is showing some aptitude in this area and has the potential to be a fine two way guy. Coburn has wheels and can carry the puck and pass ok...Mez when healthy has shown this ability too...even Gervais, despite his weak defense, is a capable puck mover. I think, rather than this fixation some have for a "puck moving defenseman", the focus should be more on an offensive defenseman. The Flyers corps could use a guy who can consistently join the play and produce from the point both even strength and on the PP. Of course, carrying the puck should be a part of that player's game, but I think offensive ability is a more specific need than a mere puck mover per se.


Last edited by fauxflex: 03-16-2013 at 02:55 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old
03-16-2013, 08:34 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
Well they have Kimmo, Gus and Mez who all should have puck moving skills, and the team still struggles to gain the nuetral zone. So im skeptical Schenn or Grossman are #2's right now. More like #4's who need a strong offensive partner in order to cover up their lack of offense.
Check this thread...
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1339755&page=5

look at the numerous clips that show Grossman, Schenn (and others) making solid puck moving plays out of the zone. IMO, the reason the team struggles at times with moving it through the N zone has more to do with puck support form the forwards than it does the inability of the D to make a first pass or skate it out. The forwards need to come back and support more closely, more often taking the puck moving duties (from the d zone and through the N zone) upon themselves, and the team should move up the ice more as a cohesive unit rather than be haphazard, with ill advised line changes etc...

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03-16-2013, 08:35 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The issues with getting through the neutral zone haven't really been on the Dmen, though. Watch closely...you'll see it's the forwards who are really struggling. The Dmen are handing the puck off, generally without issue, and once the forwards have it they've struggled.

This..

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03-16-2013, 08:42 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
He would be exactly what we need. He can quarterback a power play and skate the puck through the damn neutral zone. We have no defenders right now that can take the puck from end to end. He would probably cost a good amount, but I don't believe it would be Couts or Schenn. Depending where we finish in the standing I would think about our first rounder.
Yes, this is for the most part, true. I mean occasionaly you'll see Timonen do it, or even Coburn when he gets on his horse...but really the Flyers haven't had a D man who could carry the mail from D zone to O zone consistently since Joni Pitkanen who is/was one of the best at this. That's a big reaosn why I hated to see him go. There aren't many players in the league that can do this with consistency...Pronger was good but used a different method, usually firing his cannon of a shot from the red line, on net every time. In the absence of such a player, I think the forwards need to support more and help carry the mail..this is what most (good) teams in that situation do.

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03-16-2013, 08:46 AM
  #150
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Pronger used to compensate for the forwards going through the neutral zone poorly with accurate stretch passing. When you can receive the puck at the blue line or red line heading in, it is much better.

This group is not as good going through the neutral zone as when Carter and Richard would bring it in. Briere used to be okay at it-- he has lost some skill here.

Can't rely on the defensemen to be carrying the puck up ice. Forwards should be doing it more than they.

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