HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Non-Sports > Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"
Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

Positive discrimination

View Poll Results: Positive discrimination is a...
Good thing 5 15.63%
Bad thing 27 84.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-16-2013, 12:01 PM
  #1
FinRuutu
Red Wins
 
FinRuutu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 4,395
vCash: 50
Positive discrimination

Got the idea from the "Rooney rule"-thread from main forum.

Do you consider positive discrimination being a good or a bad thing?

Should minorities / women get a free pass to offices because lack of diversity?

This has been timely topic in Finland because some parties (Green party, Leftist party) are trying to get a bill to pass for women quota to corporate board of directors.

Should the most appropriate candidate be chosen over the most qualifying?

FinRuutu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 12:06 PM
  #2
Colt45Blast
It Works Everytime!
 
Colt45Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Mexico
Posts: 25,187
vCash: 500
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...uth115056.html

Quote:
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.Martin Luther King, Jr.

Colt45Blast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 01:03 PM
  #3
DaveG
Mod Supervisor
RIP Kev
 
DaveG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Durham NC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,900
vCash: 2498
I don't like it even as someone who in a sense could potentially trace the job I have back to getting such a benefit myself.

DaveG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 02:01 PM
  #4
kov
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,190
vCash: 500
Is being born into a rich family "positive discrimination"?

kov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 02:18 PM
  #5
rebel diamond
Registered User
 
rebel diamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Trinidad and Tobago
Posts: 5,045
vCash: 500
I'm not going to vote in the poll, because I don't think the issue is that simple. Honestly, it is a problem for society that certain groups are underrepresented in positions of power, be it boards of directors, government, the judiciary, etc. It's probably good policy to try and mitigate this imbalance in some way or another. That being said, simple quotas rarely address the actual issue, and simply give advantages to privileged members within larger groups that have historically been discriminated against and/or create resentment among other groups.

rebel diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 02:28 PM
  #6
FinRuutu
Red Wins
 
FinRuutu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 4,395
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by kov View Post
Is being born into a rich family "positive discrimination"?
Being born into a rich family doesn't give you advantage in Finland like it does in USA, so I couldn't tell. In Finland everyone has about the same kind of tools to work with, everyone gets education for free from elementary to university.

FinRuutu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 02:41 PM
  #7
Fozz
Registered User
 
Fozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,309
vCash: 500
Best person for the job in all cases, regardless of anything (almost).

Fozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 03:08 PM
  #8
Kadri43
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: noneofyourbusiness
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Best person for the job in all cases, regardless of anything (almost).
pretty much this.

Kadri43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 03:20 PM
  #9
FinRuutu
Red Wins
 
FinRuutu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 4,395
vCash: 50
This is what you call a small sample size but 7-1 against positive discrimination and still it happens quite a lot, at least in Finland.

FinRuutu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 03:24 PM
  #10
Eisen
Registered User
 
Eisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene
Country: Germany
Posts: 6,428
vCash: 500
We built the society and norms. Certain groups are underrepresented. It doesn't vanish over night but we have to work on it. I'm not so sure if quotas are the way to change a mindset. But it's better than nothing.

Eisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:11 PM
  #11
Montreal Typical
Registered User
 
Montreal Typical's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Moreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,114
vCash: 500
Discrimination is always negative.

Montreal Typical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:26 PM
  #12
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railman View Post
Discrimination is always negative.
Not always.

We have enshrined affirmative action (aka positive discrimination) in our Constitution and we promote employment equity. We chose to not follow the US approach.

The idea is to remedy historical imbalances - it is a restorative approach.

Per the Charter of Rights and Freedoms:
Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

Affirmative action programs

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
Per the federal Employment Equity Act:
PURPOSE OF ACT

Purpose of Act

2. The purpose of this Act is to achieve equality in the workplace so that no person shall be denied employment opportunities or benefits for reasons unrelated to ability and, in the fulfilment of that goal, to correct the conditions of disadvantage in employment experienced by women, aboriginal peoples, persons with disabilities and members of visible minorities by giving effect to the principle that employment equity means more than treating persons in the same way but also requires special measures and the accommodation of differences.
In 1983 the federal government established the Royal Commission on Equality in Employment, headed by Judge Rosalie Abella. The Commission, which released its report in 1984, recognized that the demographic, social and economic patterns of Canadian society were changing and women and minorities would form increasingly large segments of the labour force in Canada’s future.
The Abella Commission Report documented the practices Canadians have adopted that have negative effects on certain groups in society. The Report used the term systemic discrimination to refer to the unintentional barriers that screen out women, visible minorities, persons with disabilities and Aboriginal people from jobs they may be qualified to do. Systemic discrimination in the labour market produces high unemployment rates, lower than average salaries, and concentrations in low-status jobs for these groups of people. Clearly, systemic discrimination calls for systemic remedies that address the barriers that limit the full participation of these groups in productive work.

In addition to the term systemic discrimination, the Commission used employment equity and equality in particular ways. The Abella Report refers to equality as both equal and different treatment in order to achieve fairness; that is, treating people the same, in spite of their differences, as well as treating people as equals by accommodating their differences. The Commission coined the term employment equity to describe employment practices which eliminate discrimination and thereby provide equitable opportunities in employment.

In recent years, the concept of employment equity has evolved. The original goal of employment equity was to identify and remove barriers to equitable opportunities. That remains an important goal; however, employment equity is also valued as a means to enhance diversity. Removing barriers leads to greater diversity within an organization, which in turn can bring new perspectives and innovation. It is also recognized that the four groups designated in the Employment Equity Act are not the only groups who face discriminatory barriers resulting from historical disadvantage and who could, therefore, benefit from employment equity practices.
http://www.ubc.ca/okanagan/equity/employment.html

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:38 PM
  #13
Montreal Typical
Registered User
 
Montreal Typical's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Moreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,114
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
We have enshrined affirmative action (aka positive discrimination) in our Constitution and we promote employment equity. We chose to not follow the US approach.
What is your point exactly?

I know that the law allows for discrimination against certain groups to prop others up. It doesn't change the fact that discrimination is always a bad thing.

Montreal Typical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:42 PM
  #14
Gobias Industries
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railman View Post
What is your point exactly?

I know that the law allows for discrimination against certain groups to prop others up. It doesn't change the fact that discrimination is always a bad thing.
What about never addressing or changing the effects of previous discrimination?

Gobias Industries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:48 PM
  #15
Kadri43
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: noneofyourbusiness
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railman View Post
What is your point exactly?

I know that the law allows for discrimination against certain groups to prop others up. It doesn't change the fact that discrimination is always a bad thing.
I 100% agree with this. **** s.15(2).

Kadri43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:49 PM
  #16
Kadri43
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: noneofyourbusiness
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
What about never addressing or changing the effects of previous discrimination?
By promoting discrimination today? Every person should be treated as equal and as individuals rather than groups as per s.15(2).

Kadri43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 04:58 PM
  #17
Tubby Tuke
Drafting my Overalls
 
Tubby Tuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
What about never addressing or changing the effects of previous discrimination?
And how exactly are you going to get the right 'mix' of affirmative action? When will it end?

The entire section is a joke. Affirmative action is basically "lets help women and a handful of minorities". That's affirmative action in a nutshell if you look at who it has helped.

Tubby Tuke is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 05:34 PM
  #18
Johnny LaRue
Registered User
 
Johnny LaRue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Kudamatsu-shi, Japan
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,188
vCash: 200
Wetcoaster is right, the ability for governments and organizations to use positive discrimination or affirmative action was specifically protected in the constitution.

I agree with Railman though, as a policy perspective it makes for poor public policy. Discrimination isn't simply wrong, I believe it could cause problems further on down the line.

Now we have whites looking for special treatment when trying to get into university. It's insane. Where does it end?

Johnny LaRue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 07:32 PM
  #19
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railman View Post
What is your point exactly?

I know that the law allows for discrimination against certain groups to prop others up. It doesn't change the fact that discrimination is always a bad thing.
I disagree.

IMHO affirmative action and employment equity are positive responses to historically bad situations, policies and processes that resulted in situations of disadvantage. It is a restorative approach.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 07:33 PM
  #20
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny LaRue View Post
Wetcoaster is right, the ability for governments and organizations to use positive discrimination or affirmative action was specifically protected in the constitution.

I agree with Railman though, as a policy perspective it makes for poor public policy. Discrimination isn't simply wrong, I believe it could cause problems further on down the line.

Now we have whites looking for special treatment when trying to get into university. It's insane. Where does it end?
Affirmative action and employment equity are restricted to specifically defined classes that have suffered historic discrimination and barriers.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 07:52 PM
  #21
Colt45Blast
It Works Everytime!
 
Colt45Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Mexico
Posts: 25,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
I disagree.

IMHO affirmative action and employment equity are positive responses to historically bad situations, policies and processes that resulted in situations of disadvantage. It is a restorative approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Affirmative action and employment equity are restricted to specifically defined classes that have suffered historic discrimination and barriers.


All of this crap coming from the same people who tell us to be blind towards color, race, sex , gender, etc etc. Do as I say and not as I do!!

Colt45Blast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 08:21 PM
  #22
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadri43 View Post
By promoting discrimination today? Every person should be treated as equal and as individuals rather than groups as per s.15(2).
Certainly. But in reality, merit seldom acts as the final arbiter in regards to educational and vocational opportunities (unless you think Dubya earned his way into Yale).

The reality is that racism and sexism exist in the real, everyday world. To counteract this easily provable fact with idealistic arguments about how the world "should" be simply ignores the problem while perpetuating the mystification ("everybody is equal", etc).

slip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 08:27 PM
  #23
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,602
vCash: 500
Trust me, the "Dream" speech was the last thing Dr. King had on his mind -- while in Memphis, speaking to and on behalf of striking sanitation workers in his "I've been to the Mountaintop" speech -- when the government put a bullet in his head.


Last edited by slip: 03-16-2013 at 10:07 PM.
slip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 08:57 PM
  #24
Gobias Industries
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,350
vCash: 500
I get the basic "no discrimination is good discrimination" premise, I just wonder what the best way to combat systemic racism and sexism's effect on society?

When I think about it I struggle to come up with an idea that is a more direct way affect the problem than affirmative action.

I'm not well-read on the matter, but I'm not quick to just dismiss it because of it's face value.

Gobias Industries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2013, 10:32 PM
  #25
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I get the basic "no discrimination is good discrimination" premise, I just wonder what the best way to combat systemic racism and sexism's effect on society?

When I think about it I struggle to come up with an idea that is a more direct way affect the problem than affirmative action.

I'm not well-read on the matter, but I'm not quick to just dismiss it because of it's face value.
I think a healthy infusion of capital into depressed areas (infrastructure, schools, clinics, roads, parks, recreation centers, etc) is a start.

I think going after the predatory scum who decimated large swathes of minority districts and wiping out decades of accumulated wealth via deceptive and unrealistic loan terms is a good place to start.

I think attempting to restore some of that stolen equity is a start.

The truth is, affirmative action is ultimately an ineffectual program because it attempts to deal with the real problem of institutional racism and sexism by treating the symptoms (getting into college, career advancement) rather than the disease (wealth controlled by white men). To tackle any disease, you need a skilled doctor. Alas, they killed one of the best:

And another reason that I'm happy to live in this period is that we have been forced to a point where we are going to have to grapple with the problems that men have been trying to grapple with through history, but the demands didn't force them to do it. Survival demands that we grapple with them. Men, for years now, have been talking about war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; it's nonviolence or nonexistence. That is where we are today.

And also in the human rights revolution, if something isn't done, and done in a hurry, to bring the colored peoples of the world out of their long years of poverty, their long years of hurt and neglect, the whole world is doomed......



slip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.