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Old
03-15-2013, 12:58 AM
  #51
Foppa2118
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This isn't meant to add to the debate, but I just found this rookie vid of EJ. Kinda funny to see him in this setting. Reminds my of the Landy bowling thing with Kyle Keefe.

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03-15-2013, 01:08 AM
  #52
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Haha, here's another one. Doesn't show the actual hit, but reminds me of the fit he threw after the concussion this year. Can't say you don't love that emotion out of him, it leads to beast mode when he gets it on the ice.

He needs to take that energy he showed early in his career, and regain that assertiveness offensively. If you watch early EJ, and EJ in Sacco's system it's totally different. He's just steady, and over thinks everything waiting too long to take shots or make passes because he's lost that confidence.

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03-15-2013, 01:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Two!? Lordy, I think we have two already (EJ, Hejda), with one currently lurking in the depths of Lake Erie (Barrie).

Yes, I'm still not a fan of Hejda, but he's perfectly fine as a middle-pairing guy.

No idea what they'll do on the center situation. I think ultimately they need to trade Stastny...it just depends on when the right time for that might be. I predict it'll be this offseason, and he'll end up in Florida.
I like Hejda too, but the problem is they have too many top four, or bottom four guys however you want to call them. They need another legit top pairing offensive guy to really improve the unit.

Barrie right now, and IMO probably in the future is at best a 2nd pairing offensive D. Even if he could play the left side with EJ, I don't think he's a good fit on a top pairing having to rely on him consistently for a solid all around game.

Even if you attribute a player like Barrie's ability to rush the puck out of the zone as a defensive plus, it still forces EJ to be more of the stay at home guy to cover for him. Which severly limits his offensive talents.

What this team really needs is someone who has some defensive awareness to their game, and the right physical tools to hold their own defensively, to go along with some offensive prowess.

Obviously the more offense the better, but at the least a two way defenseman is a better choice for EJ's partner, especially on the top pairing. This is why Quincey so far has made the best pairing with him, aand coincidentally also coincided with EJ playing his best offensive and defensive hockey with the Avs. Hejda also early on last year made a great pairing when he was playing good solid two way hockey.

A defensive D is better for EJ, than an offensive D partner IMO, but they really need a two way D partner for him, with as much offense as possible if they want to build around EJ properly. Otherwise they're wasting his talents, and relying on him too much for offensive creativity which isn't really his strong suit.

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03-15-2013, 01:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I like Hejda too, but the problem is they have too many top four, or bottom four guys however you want to call them. They need another legit top pairing offensive guy to really improve the unit.

Barrie right now, and IMO probably in the future is at best a 2nd pairing offensive D. Even if he could play the left side with EJ, I don't think he's a good fit on a top pairing having to rely on him consistently for a solid all around game.

Even if you attribute a player like Barrie's ability to rush the puck out of the zone as a defensive plus, it still forces EJ to be more of the stay at home guy to cover for him. Which severly limits his offensive talents.

What this team really needs is someone who has some defensive awareness to their game, and the right physical tools to hold their own defensively, to go along with some offensive prowess.

Obviously the more offense the better, but at the least a two way defenseman is a better choice for EJ's partner, especially on the top pairing. This is why Quincey so far has made the best pairing with him, aand coincidentally also coincided with EJ playing his best offensive and defensive hockey with the Avs. Hejda also early on last year made a great pairing when he was playing good solid two way hockey.

A defensive D is better for EJ, than an offensive D partner IMO, but they really need a two way D partner for him, with as much offense as possible if they want to build around EJ properly. Otherwise they're wasting his talents, and relying on him too much for offensive creativity which isn't really his strong suit.
Maybe Rob Scuderi is that guy. I'd like us to pick up someone like him since he probably won't cost a ton, could conceivably play the top pairing w/EJ, and if someone like, say, Siemens or even possibly Barrie proves to be a better fit, he can play elsewhere in the lineup.

Better yet, he's a left-handed shot. The problem with pairing Barrie and EJ together is that one guy will have to be on his off-side. That wouldn't be a problem with a Scuderi/EJ pairing.

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03-15-2013, 01:45 AM
  #55
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Hey whats goin on in here? STOP PICKING ON EJ LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!

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03-15-2013, 03:20 AM
  #56
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So if Dreger is right and the Blues are willing to trade Stewart, do Stewart's stats still get brought up when complaining about the trade or will the complaining be about who the Blues acquire for Stewart? Maybe how the Avs could have had that guy for Stewart and kept Shattenkirk as well. How does this work?

I need to be prepared because apparently this trade will be discussed for a long ass time.

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03-15-2013, 03:27 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
So if Dreger is right and the Blues are willing to trade Stewart, do Stewart's stats still get brought up when complaining about the trade or will the complaining be about who the Blues acquire for Stewart? Maybe how the Avs could have had that guy for Stewart and kept Shattenkirk as well. How does this work?

I need to be prepared because apparently this trade will be discussed for a long ass time.
Just use it and manipulate/twist it so that it works in favour of your argument.

That is what I plan on doing.

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03-15-2013, 09:23 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
So if Dreger is right and the Blues are willing to trade Stewart, do Stewart's stats still get brought up when complaining about the trade or will the complaining be about who the Blues acquire for Stewart? Maybe how the Avs could have had that guy for Stewart and kept Shattenkirk as well. How does this work?

I need to be prepared because apparently this trade will be discussed for a long ass time.
I can see it now, "Sherman basically gave up Giordano, Rattie, two second round picks, and Shattenkirk for Erik Johnson"

Scuderi might be a good filler until Siemens potentially becomes ready.

It would be nice if they decided what they wanted Johnson to become, and told him to just go be that player again. If Sherman wanted him to become a mean shutdown defenceman, then call Barrie up and have EJ make Barrie feel like he can freely roam and not worry. If they want Johnson to become a more two-way guy, then stick him with Hejda and let him have free roam again.

I only saw the first 9 minutes of last night's game, but I saw EJ actually protecting the puck down low in the Wild zone. Maybe having a shutdown guy like Zannon(haha) is best for his game. Make him feel like he has to be more involved.

Just to add:

Doughty: 26 GP, 0 G, 10 A, 10 pts.
Kulikov: 20 Gp, 0 G, 7 A, 7 pts.
Myers: 25 GP, 3 G, 1 A, 4 pts.
Bogosian: 15 GP, 1 G, 2A, 3 pts.
Fowler: 17 gp, 0 G, 2 A, 2pts

and in a lesser tier:
Garrison: 25 GP, 4 G, 2A, 6 pts
Bieksa: 19 GP, 5 G, 1 A, 6pts
Giordano: 25 GP, 1 G, 4 A, 5 Pts
Coburn: 28 GP, 1 G, 4 A, 5 Pts

EJ's not the only big defenceman who is struggling offensively.

(Its also funny for all the love Barrie gets, he only has 2 more points in the same amount of games as EJ)


Last edited by Avs71: 03-15-2013 at 09:45 AM.
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03-15-2013, 10:06 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
So if Dreger is right and the Blues are willing to trade Stewart, do Stewart's stats still get brought up when complaining about the trade or will the complaining be about who the Blues acquire for Stewart? Maybe how the Avs could have had that guy for Stewart and kept Shattenkirk as well. How does this work?

I need to be prepared because apparently this trade will be discussed for a long ass time.
You guys know why they want to trade him right?

Because they are scared to death of signing this guy long-term and have last year's Chris Stewart show up. Oh sure, he got into shape and is working hard and playing very well *ahem contract year* but there is no other reason they would even come close to contemplating trading a guy like that.

It's the same reason we traded him to St-Louis...we just knew about it before the Blues eventually found out.

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03-15-2013, 10:22 AM
  #60
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You guys know why they want to trade him right?

Because they are scared to death of signing this guy long-term and have last year's Chris Stewart show up. Oh sure, he got into shape and is working hard and playing very well *ahem contract year* but there is no other reason they would even come close to contemplating trading a guy like that.

It's the same reason we traded him to St-Louis...we just knew about it before the Blues eventually found out.
Bingo!

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03-15-2013, 11:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
You guys know why they want to trade him right?

Because they are scared to death of signing this guy long-term and have last year's Chris Stewart show up. Oh sure, he got into shape and is working hard and playing very well *ahem contract year* but there is no other reason they would even come close to contemplating trading a guy like that.

It's the same reason we traded him to St-Louis...we just knew about it before the Blues eventually found out.
Exactly, they're trying to do the same thing the Avs did if they move him, and that's trade him when his value is high, and before he gets on his next siberian cold streak.

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03-15-2013, 11:48 AM
  #62
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I can understand why they want to trade him, just like I can understand why we wanted to trade him...but I still think he brings a mix of speed, skill, and power that's hard to find. It's a gamble, but I hope he lands a decent contract and goes on a tear, wherever he is.

I'm in wait-and-see mode on the trade. Worst case scenario, Siemens goes bust and EJ levels out as a really good, but not great defenseman. That's not a great trade, but it's not like giving up a prime-time shutdown defensive prospect for five minutes of Theo Fleury either.

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03-15-2013, 11:50 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Look how much better at skating, and handling the puck, and jumping into the play, and at shooting he is there than pretty much any time we've seen him.

He needs to be put in situations where he can succeed, and in a system that promotes more offense from the D. Compare that shift to the guy that just plays solid D most of the time, and sits at the point only to take the occasional shot on net that gets blocked.

His offensive skills have probably atrophied his whole tenure in Colorado because Sacco has no idea how to implement a proper system that involves the defenseman contributing on offense, and the forwards contributing on defense.

It's all just hey forwards go score, D you know just fall down in front of shots and then get off the ice.
He's been jumping into to the play pretty frequently since his return from injury and we seen alot of it last night. I was certainly impressed with his work last night. I actually think he's been better this year at getting the shot through and made a really smart bank shot last night too.

I know people love to hate on him because of the trade but I actually like it. Shattenkirk at his best can't impact the game like Johnson at his best. He's finally starting to show some offensive flair in his last few games. Hopefully this continues and puts the haters to rest.

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03-15-2013, 11:51 AM
  #64
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They also had one of the best defensive d-man in Scuderi, they had prime Gill and Orpik and the two of the best players in the world.

Tampa is the team that fits best as the answer to that question.
Agreed with Tampa fits the best... They also had a prime Kubina who was putting up 30-35 points a season. My point was simply that it doesn't happen often and is much harder to build a cup winning team around a offensive defensemen.

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03-15-2013, 12:03 PM
  #65
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EJ's not the only big defenceman who is struggling offensively.
People are blind to the fact Weber had nearly no points until he played against us.

Richards was playing worse than Stastny...

Yet, both players are worthless because one is a #1 overall bust that is barely a 2nd pairing defender and the other is an overpaid #2/3 center that is UFA in 1.5 seasons and has 'declined' into the top 40 in center scoring (interesting note, O'Reilly is scoring at a 58 point pace so far) while providing superb two-way play. EJ has played phenomenal for us since arriving, providing a style of play no one in our system or at the time could provide. That in and of itself is justification for the trade. We don't need to justify his value to this team, the team proved it when he was out 10+ games.

I'd like to note anyone claiming we should trade Stastny is a boob.

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03-15-2013, 12:47 PM
  #66
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I'd like to note anyone claiming we should trade Stastny is a boob.
Consider me a boob then.

I'm not on the "trade the bum!" bandwagon, mind you, I just think that going forward we can't have three centers eating up that much cap space. There's only so much ice time you can dole out--even if you opt to roll four lines, there's still one or even two guys you are underutilizing. And as much of a Stazz fan as I am (I still have a #26 jersey sitting at home) I think, ultimately, he is expendable.

I still think moving Stastny to the wing should be tried before it's all said and done, but that's just me.

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03-16-2013, 11:50 AM
  #67
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I don't find it particularly useful to discuss this trade outside of the context the Sherman thread. In my mind it's a pretty clear loss unless EJ starts putting up some points and Siemens becomes a 2/3 defender (which he might, but more like 4 years down the road).

But what's done is done and we have to move forward from here. Many GMs have made big mistakes during their rebuilds - Cam barker with 3rd overall, Hickey with 4th overall as examples - and the teams have still gone on to be successful.

My main interest in discussing it is that I don't think Sherman, or whoever is actually in charge of decisions for us, has done a particularly good job for us in this rebuild, contrary to what was popular opinion on our forum in the past, and I would rather we have someone better running our team. Not going to happen though so what can you do.

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03-16-2013, 12:32 PM
  #68
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I don't find it particularly useful to discuss this trade outside of the context the Sherman thread. In my mind it's a pretty clear loss unless EJ starts putting up some points and Siemens becomes a 2/3 defender (which he might, but more like 4 years down the road).

But what's done is done and we have to move forward from here. Many GMs have made big mistakes during their rebuilds - Cam barker with 3rd overall, Hickey with 4th overall as examples - and the teams have still gone on to be successful.

My main interest in discussing it is that I don't think Sherman, or whoever is actually in charge of decisions for us, has done a particularly good job for us in this rebuild, contrary to what was popular opinion on our forum in the past, and I would rather we have someone better running our team. Not going to happen though so what can you do.
I wouldn't say this trade is anywhere near selecting two of the biggest busts in the last 10 years. (Perhaps I misread and you were providing extreme examples of screw ups, not directly comparing the decisions)

I bet when all is said and done, St. Louis is going to wish they had Seimens. Not in the sense that they wish they didn't do the trade obviously, but in the sense that Seimens would be a great guy to have to play next to either of their right handed defencemen. If you read their board, Jackman has helped Shatty, and now he is helping Petro. They were joking about needing him cloned. RS said Seimens is basically a better skating version of Jackman. Seimens playing in the AHL/NHL next year will definitely give a better glimpse of what the Avs may have got out of the trade.

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03-16-2013, 12:48 PM
  #69
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I wouldn't say this trade is anywhere near selecting two of the biggest busts in the last 10 years. (Perhaps I misread and you were providing extreme examples of screw ups, not directly comparing the decisions)

I bet when all is said and done, St. Louis is going to wish they had Seimens. Not in the sense that they wish they didn't do the trade obviously, but in the sense that Seimens would be a great guy to have to play next to either of their right handed defencemen. If you read their board, Jackman has helped Shatty, and now he is helping Petro. They were joking about needing him cloned. RS said Seimens is basically a better skating version of Jackman. Seimens playing in the AHL/NHL next year will definitely give a better glimpse of what the Avs may have got out of the trade.

My point was simply that two teams have made much worse mistakes and gone on to win the cup out of those rebuilds. I was simply acknowledge that while I do believe this trade was a big mistake, it's not an insurmountable one. It just means we'll need a bit more patience.

And I don't really buy that line of thought. We don't know what Siemens will be at the pro level yet and it's going to be some time before he's an impact player even if he does develop into one. Probably needs at least a full year in the AHL and then some time on the bottom pairing playing with someone who can mentor him. I'm guessing 3 more years before he's a legit top 4 contributor. Obviously he could surprise, but he could just as well fail to meet expectations so I think setting a realistic view of his trajectory is best.

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03-16-2013, 02:10 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
My point was simply that two teams have made much worse mistakes and gone on to win the cup out of those rebuilds. I was simply acknowledge that while I do believe this trade was a big mistake, it's not an insurmountable one. It just means we'll need a bit more patience.
The trade cant be judged from the Avs point of view until EJ gets a D partner capable of play Defense. When EJ gets a partner who can do the things he can do, we will see what we have in EJ. Right now he is being forced to try and do to much. Seth Jones on his side would make EJ a far and away better Dman then Shatty IMO, both ends of the ice.

Also hard to judge the trade until the Avs become a contending team. Shatty is playing on one of the deepest, most well coached teams in the league. It is pretty much impossible to look bad in that system. When the Avs get a coach who knows how to effectively use his players, and implements a system, then we will have even more of an understanding of EJ's game.


The trade doesn't look great for the Avs right now. But it could look very different in 3 years from now. When all the players involved are in the NHL and the big 3 are entering there primes.

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03-16-2013, 11:40 PM
  #71
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Also I am pretty sure Blues could use EJ on their roster more than Stewart right now.
He leads the Blues with 14 goals and 28 points in 28 games.

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03-17-2013, 12:37 PM
  #72
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The trade cant be judged from the Avs point of view until EJ gets a D partner capable of play Defense. When EJ gets a partner who can do the things he can do, we will see what we have in EJ. Right now he is being forced to try and do to much. Seth Jones on his side would make EJ a far and away better Dman then Shatty IMO, both ends of the ice.

Also hard to judge the trade until the Avs become a contending team. Shatty is playing on one of the deepest, most well coached teams in the league. It is pretty much impossible to look bad in that system. When the Avs get a coach who knows how to effectively use his players, and implements a system, then we will have even more of an understanding of EJ's game.


The trade doesn't look great for the Avs right now. But it could look very different in 3 years from now. When all the players involved are in the NHL and the big 3 are entering there primes.
Yes, this.

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03-17-2013, 12:42 PM
  #73
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I don't find it particularly useful to discuss this trade outside of the context the Sherman thread. In my mind it's a pretty clear loss unless EJ starts putting up some points and Siemens becomes a 2/3 defender (which he might, but more like 4 years down the road).

But what's done is done and we have to move forward from here. Many GMs have made big mistakes during their rebuilds - Cam barker with 3rd overall, Hickey with 4th overall as examples - and the teams have still gone on to be successful.

My main interest in discussing it is that I don't think Sherman, or whoever is actually in charge of decisions for us, has done a particularly good job for us in this rebuild, contrary to what was popular opinion on our forum in the past, and I would rather we have someone better running our team. Not going to happen though so what can you do.
I made the EJ thread because I was tired of constantly seeing the EJ trade discussed in the Sherman thread. Sherman has made other moves, and it seemed like all everyone wanting to discuss lately was the EJ trade, and I felt that it was prudent to have a separate thread for those who wanted to discuss the EJ trade. Foppa2118 spent a lot of time working on the OP for the Sherman thread, and didn't deserve to have it hijacked.

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03-17-2013, 01:32 PM
  #74
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I think it's fair to judge EJ on his merits thus far regardless of whoever it is lining up alongside him every night. Yes, he could use better defensive partners, that part is inarguable. But to say we can't judge the trade until he gets a worthy defensive partner is a bit much.

Bottom line, he hasn't played great. Good, yes, not great. Still very hesitant with the puck in all aspects, and still not making great decisions. You can attribute some of this to him coming off injury or the lack of a quality defensive partner, but I think we've had a big enough sample size to give him a fair evaluation--and frankly he ain't cuttin' it.

I'm still in wait-and-see mode for the most part, but I think ultimately EJ will prove to be as big a disappointment to us as he was to St. Louis. Good...but not great.

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03-17-2013, 02:17 PM
  #75
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He leads the Blues with 14 goals and 28 points in 28 games.
That's the thing that makes it frustrating, Stewart and Shattenkirk have been the driving forces for the Blues this year rather than passengers to Pietrangelo, Backes and co.

EJ has to play much much better. The flashes are there regularly, he'll have dominant shifts, periods, even games from time to time and if he could do that with regularity that would be fine but its definitely been a large enough sample size to see that he struggles with confidence and decision making and that's preventing him from playing like that every night. Maybe it's something that will improve with better coaching and better teammates, to help him take that next step but at 25 you can't help but think it's gotta come soon if it's coming at all.

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