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Hodgson Trade Discussion

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:59 PM
  #701
opendoor
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Originally Posted by CanucksSayEh View Post
This is a trade, not a comparison in the poll section. Todays #'s matter, more than they probably will in a few years as we are trying to win a cup here.
Given that there wasn't a tenable situation where Hodgson would've remained on the team long term, comparing numbers makes little sense. It shouldn't be Kassian vs. Hodgson, it should be Kassian vs. whatever else they could've gotten by trading Hodgson to a different team.

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03-15-2013, 07:22 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Given that there wasn't a tenable situation where Hodgson would've remained on the team long term, comparing numbers makes little sense. It shouldn't be Kassian vs. Hodgson, it should be Kassian vs. whatever else they could've gotten by trading Hodgson to a different team.
My problem with that is - was it not tenable because of Gillis' ego, or was it Hodgson's dad that was the issue?

The way I read this whole situation was that Gillis abruptly traded Hodgson to make a point that no one tells him who to play or how much to play them. The trade was horrible for it's timing. It eliminated a second tier scoring threat that served the Canucks very well in big games that year to that point. As close as the LA series was, who knows if Hodgson could have potted a timely goal here and there and changed the outcome of a game or two? It's unlikely - but he was certainly more impactful to that point than Kassian was.

The trade, for it's timing, was a colossal mistake by Gillis and one that he should be ashamed of making.

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03-15-2013, 07:38 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
My problem with that is - was it not tenable because of Gillis' ego, or was it Hodgson's dad that was the issue?
I just don't think Hodgson had any interest in playing in Vancouver long term with Sedin and Kesler ahead of him on the depth chart. Whether it was through a trade request or being a real hardass when he was an RFA, I don't really see a situation where it would've worked long term. His agent more or less admitted that on Twitter before deleting a bunch of tweets.

The Canucks aren't blameless in that, as I'm sure the whole back injury and Vigneault's stupid comments probably poisoned the well a bit, but that doesn't change the reality that existed last season.

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The way I read this whole situation was that Gillis abruptly traded Hodgson to make a point that no one tells him who to play or how much to play them. The trade was horrible for it's timing. It eliminated a second tier scoring threat that served the Canucks very well in big games that year to that point. As close as the LA series was, who knows if Hodgson could have potted a timely goal here and there and changed the outcome of a game or two? It's unlikely - but he was certainly more impactful to that point than Kassian was.

The trade, for it's timing, was a colossal mistake by Gillis and one that he should be ashamed of making.

Rightly or wrongly, Vigneault probably wasn't going to be comfortable playing Hodgson regularly in the playoffs, especially if his offensive game couldn't make up for his defensive struggles. In that context, trading him at the deadline could make sense because his value might be hurt if he got stuck on the 4th line or got exposed defensively. On the other hand he might have had an offensive explosion and a great playoffs that would lead to his value increasing, but given how he performed over the last 35 or so games of the season that seems like an unlikely scenario IMO.

The timing and the return were definitely a risk, but all trades are to some degree. Though I don't see either as being inherently bad decisions as some others seem to.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:57 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
My problem with that is - was it not tenable because of Gillis' ego, or was it Hodgson's dad that was the issue?

The way I read this whole situation was that Gillis abruptly traded Hodgson to make a point that no one tells him who to play or how much to play them. The trade was horrible for it's timing. It eliminated a second tier scoring threat that served the Canucks very well in big games that year to that point. As close as the LA series was, who knows if Hodgson could have potted a timely goal here and there and changed the outcome of a game or two? It's unlikely - but he was certainly more impactful to that point than Kassian was.

The trade, for it's timing, was a colossal mistake by Gillis and one that he should be ashamed of making.
You forget how badly Hodgson hit the wall towards the end of the season. He wasn't scoring and he was getting exposed defensively when he went to a bigger role in Buffalo.

Overall, his season stats involved negative corsi (both relative and absolute) and a +/- that was 0.6 per 60 minutes worse than his teammates despite being sheltered for a good part of the season and getting positive offensive zone starts.

I don't have any splits, but I'm pretty sure the latter half of the season was what dragged his numbers down.

Sure, he *could* have had an impact in the Kings series, but given how his play was towards the end of last season, his chance of making an impact was probably about as the same Andrew Ebbett's chance of making an impact.

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03-15-2013, 08:01 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Zarpan View Post
You forget how badly Hodgson hit the wall towards the end of the season. He wasn't scoring and he was getting exposed defensively when he went to a bigger role in Buffalo.

Overall, his season stats involved negative corsi (both relative and absolute) and a +/- that was 0.6 per 60 minutes worse than his teammates despite being sheltered for a good part of the season and getting positive offensive zone starts.

I don't have any splits, but I'm pretty sure the latter half of the season was what dragged his numbers down.

Sure, he *could* have had an impact in the Kings series, but given how his play was towards the end of last season, his chance of making an impact was probably about as the same Andrew Ebbett's chance of making an impact.
He had more impact than Kassian did last year. The trade, if it had to be done, could have waited until after the playoffs. That's my big issue.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:32 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
As for my thoughts on the trade:

I love what I've seen so far. D zone game needs work, but in terms of creating offense, poise with possession of the puck, shooting, and having great vision, I often forget to realize/believe Hodgson is a sophomore by definition.

That said - why does there HAVE to be a "winner" or "loser" in the trade? You guys will benefit from the size, grit, physicality, and forechecking of Kassian for years to come. Hodgson wasn't bringing you guys anything, and Kassian brings something that you needed, apparently. I'd say the trade was fine for both, which is rare nowadays
You wouldn't say that if you didn't clearly win the trade.

Anyways, this Hodgson doesn't bring us anything stuff is just revisionist bs from our fans. He showed a ton of promise his first year, while having the same huge limitations he has now that he's still working out of. This year, he's made the logical next step, with your top players inflating his stats a bit.

He would have been a very promising/effective player for us as well.

I like Kassian moving forward, and I like his potential, but not nearly as much as Hodgson's high end capabilities. He may not be a 70 point player as his numbers indicate, but he definitely looks like a 50 point player, at least, which we could sorely use.

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:35 PM
  #707
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Hodgson hates Vancouver.

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Old
03-16-2013, 06:32 PM
  #708
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Just thought I'd throw an update:
Cody Hodgson was -1, took a puck over the glass penalty and 2 giveaways with Zero takeaways.

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03-16-2013, 08:16 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
The trade, for it's timing, was a colossal mistake by Gillis and one that he should be ashamed of making.
Poor timing aside, it has been made pretty abundantly clear who the better hockey player is, if it wasn't already. Please don't say "we have to wait 5 years", because that is a total copout. Cody Hodgson is an NHL 1C. Zack Kassian is struggling to hold on to his spot on a team that needs help pretty desperately.

The funny irony is that Mike Gillis has made a bunch of pretty glaring errors during his tenure as GM, yet it's AV who is always criticized and blamed for any losses. AV's track record is nearly flawless.

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:19 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
Just thought I'd throw an update:
Cody Hodgson was -1, took a puck over the glass penalty and 2 giveaways with Zero takeaways.
lol, you must be sleeping a little better tonight wont you.

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03-16-2013, 08:20 PM
  #711
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I can't believe this thread is still so active.

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:28 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I just don't think Hodgson had any interest in playing in Vancouver long term with Sedin and Kesler ahead of him on the depth chart. Whether it was through a trade request or being a real hardass when he was an RFA, I don't really see a situation where it would've worked long term. His agent more or less admitted that on Twitter before deleting a bunch of tweets.
Schneider probably wanted a trade since Luongo was acquired back in 2006, up until roughly April of 2012. That didn't/hasn't motivated the organization to move him.

The whole "he didn't want to be here" excuse is just that - an excuse And it's an excuse that in no way explains the timing of the move. What actually happened was that Mike Gillis opined that the Vancouver Canucks would be a better team today with Pahlsson & Kassian than they would with Hodgson. And that was/is a costly, costly error.

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03-16-2013, 08:39 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Poor timing aside, it has been made pretty abundantly clear who the better hockey player is, if it wasn't already. Please don't say "we have to wait 5 years", because that is a total copout. Cody Hodgson is an NHL 1C. Zack Kassian is struggling to hold on to his spot on a team that needs help pretty desperately.

The funny irony is that Mike Gillis has made a bunch of pretty glaring errors during his tenure as GM, yet it's AV who is always criticized and blamed for any losses. AV's track record is nearly flawless.
It's true that Kassian needs a fair bit of development still, while Hodgson has established solid top 6 forward. So certainly Hodgson is the better player right now.

However, it should be noted that he's a 65 point player with Vanek and Pominville right now. Put him on the Canucks' 2nd line with Raymond and Hansen and he is probably a 50-55 point player. Basically last year's version of Kesler without the superior defense. He's Buffalo's #1 center, but would struggle to crack the list of top 30 centers in the NHL at this point. Not saying that he won't develop into that, but he's not there yet.

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:47 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
The funny irony is that Mike Gillis has made a bunch of pretty glaring errors during his tenure as GM, yet it's AV who is always criticized and blamed for any losses. AV's track record is nearly flawless.
AV did his part in poisoning the team's relationship with Hodgson.

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Old
03-16-2013, 09:30 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
yet it's AV who is always criticized and blamed for any losses. AV's track record is nearly flawless.
That's pretty hilarious in a Hodgson thread.

You must have forgot that AV (or rather Doctor AV) pretty much came out and questioned Hodgson's (back) injury was for real or not. Yeah, questioning a player's integrity is really going to make said player want to stay here.

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03-16-2013, 10:06 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
That's pretty hilarious in a Hodgson thread.

You must have forgot that AV (or rather Doctor AV) pretty much came out and questioned Hodgson's (back) injury was for real or not. Yeah, questioning a player's integrity is really going to make said player want to stay here.
However, and I am not arguing this as this is what I believed happened cause I don't really give two ***** about the situation, but people are just assuming that AVs relationship with Hodgson was soured after that and never made right again, one little apology probably made things all good. [mod]


Last edited by Dado: 03-16-2013 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Personal comments
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Old
03-16-2013, 10:31 PM
  #717
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
However, and I am not arguing this as this is what I believed happened cause I don't really give two ***** about the situation, but people are just assuming that AVs relationship with Hodgson was soured after that and never made right again, one little apology probably made things all good. I guess a lot of kids around here have never had to have a professional relationship.
That wasn't the point. Poster was claiming AV was virtually flawless and this is just one incident was pretty glaring badly handled by him.

I *never* claimed AV didn't attempt to make up for the error (much like Gillis made up for the error of signing Sturm and fixing a glaring error pretty quickly). Nobody is flawless or "error free". It's how they handle the mistakes (that everybody makes) that separates the good managers/coaches from the bad.

As for being a "kid", I was around to actually see the likes of Bobby Orr live at the Pacific Coliseum against the Canucks - as a kid.

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Old
03-16-2013, 10:58 PM
  #718
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
That wasn't the point. Poster was claiming AV was virtually flawless and this is just one incident was pretty glaring badly handled by him.

I *never* claimed AV didn't attempt to make up for the error (much like Gillis made up for the error of signing Sturm and fixing a glaring error pretty quickly). Nobody is flawless or "error free". It's how they handle the mistakes (that everybody makes) that separates the good managers/coaches from the bad.

As for being a "kid", I was around to actually see the likes of Bobby Orr live at the Pacific Coliseum against the Canucks - as a kid.
Sorry if I offended, was referring to what appears to be the general conciseness about these situations, that someone says something or makes a mistake and the a player is so offended that he can never forgive the offender. you did not say that it was not clear up, but the tone of the post, at least how I read it, suggests a broken relationship.

also the kid comment was intended to be in the narrative of a conversation between me and you about other posters, not me about you, as it reads "a lot of kids around here", I just assumed you were older.

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03-16-2013, 11:04 PM
  #719
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I can't believe this thread is still so active.
It doesn't help that, whatever his other faults may or may not be, his goals would be awfully useful right about now.

I'm halfway surprised someone hasn't started a Grabner thread...

 
Old
03-16-2013, 11:06 PM
  #720
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Does anyone remember who the 6th player we were willing to trade Hodgson for was?

I've seen

Carlson
Kassian
Sutter
Clifford
Gudbranson

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03-16-2013, 11:25 PM
  #721
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Does anyone remember who the 6th player we were willing to trade Hodgson for was?

I've seen

Carlson
Kassian
Sutter
Clifford
Gudbranson
Those are the only ones that we know. 6th guy is anyone's guess.

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Old
03-16-2013, 11:53 PM
  #722
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Sutter would have been a good fit if Carolina had been willing to trade him at that time.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:29 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Schneider probably wanted a trade since Luongo was acquired back in 2006, up until roughly April of 2012. That didn't/hasn't motivated the organization to move him.
You know you've got a good case when you have to make stuff up and qualify your arguments with "probably". You're either completely ignorant of Schneider's history or you're just being willfully ignorant. Here's a refresher:

June 2004: Schneider drafted

June 2006:
Luongo acquired; Schneider wants out according to you.

July 2007: Schneider finishes his 3rd year in the NCAA. Had he committed to a 4th year, he'd have been able to become a UFA and sign with any team he wanted. Instead he signs his ELC and reports to the Moose for the next season.

September 2009: Luongo signs 12 year contract extension

June 2010: Schneider's ELC is about to expire. Despite being fully aware of the 12 years remaining on Luongo's contract and having been stuck in the AHL until age 24, he still agrees to a 2 year contract extension a month before he'd become a Restricted Free Agent

June 2012: Schneider's 2 year contract is set to expire. He is primed to become a Restricted Free Agent with only 1 year before UFA status. Because of his previous contract, he's unable to be shielded from offer sheets by team elected arbitration. Many speculate about a possible offer sheet coming for him or teams building packages to acquire him at the draft. Instead of holding out to see what other teams had to offer he signs a 3 year contract extension with the Canucks despite Luongo being with the team past the draft.

Yeah, definitely looks like a guy who wanted out.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:56 PM
  #724
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You must have forgot that AV (or rather Doctor AV) pretty much came out and questioned Hodgson's (back) injury was for real or not. Yeah, questioning a player's integrity is really going to make said player want to stay here.
The context of that comment was that the media were trying to pin some story/excuse to Cody not making the team, instead of just calling a spade a spade and saying that he wasn't good enough. Which is what AV effectively said - that he's been medically cleared to play, thus invalidating that excuse.

All AV can do is trust the medical staff when they say that he's been medically cleared to play, right? AV can't operate under the assumption that the medical staff misdiagnosed the injury.

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03-17-2013, 03:03 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
You know you've got a good case when you have to make stuff up and qualify your arguments with "probably". You're either completely ignorant of Schneider's history or you're just being willfully ignorant. Here's a refresher:

June 2004: Schneider drafted

June 2006:
Luongo acquired; Schneider wants out according to you.

July 2007: Schneider finishes his 3rd year in the NCAA. Had he committed to a 4th year, he'd have been able to become a UFA and sign with any team he wanted. Instead he signs his ELC and reports to the Moose for the next season.

September 2009: Luongo signs 12 year contract extension

June 2010: Schneider's ELC is about to expire. Despite being fully aware of the 12 years remaining on Luongo's contract and having been stuck in the AHL until age 24, he still agrees to a 2 year contract extension a month before he'd become a Restricted Free Agent

June 2012: Schneider's 2 year contract is set to expire. He is primed to become a Restricted Free Agent with only 1 year before UFA status. Because of his previous contract, he's unable to be shielded from offer sheets by team elected arbitration. Many speculate about a possible offer sheet coming for him or teams building packages to acquire him at the draft. Instead of holding out to see what other teams had to offer he signs a 3 year contract extension with the Canucks despite Luongo being with the team past the draft.

Yeah, definitely looks like a guy who wanted out.
It's not making stuff up, it's called making a rational assumption based on facts. Schneider was a 1st round pick in '04, Vancouver goes and acquires a guy that was thought-of as the best goalie in the league in '06. Think he's encouraged? Sometimes you don't need black-and-white statements to make assumptions. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In June 2010, the plan very clearly was for Schneider to be Lou's backup, be "showcased", and subsequently moved. Mike Gillis would've been wise to have not deviated from that plan, but he did, he got greedy, kept both guys, decided to run with two "elite" goalies, and then...

...June of 2012, where certainly it's well-known to all that Luongo's on his way out, which led to Schneider signing the contract. Why not, right? He's now the #1 guy. Unfortunately, Mike Gillis has again misjudged the market for Luongo, and in fact there's no demand for the guy at all.

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