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Old
07-31-2006, 11:50 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by LeftKinger View Post
Brown plays like a typical PF. He isn't very tall but he is pretty big. His ceiling is Adam Deadmarsh and at worst he is a very good 3rd liner. He hits everything and will stand in front of the net on the PP. A lot of posters would say that Montoya is overated. I don't know I haven't seen him much.


Ok you proved your a homer with this part of your post.
I saw Brown play a lot last season. He is a very nice player, but I'm not inclined to flip him one to one with Montoya. Dustin has a chance to be a solid player for years to come, Alvaro has a chance to be a franchise goal tender for years to come. It's pretty simple, one is harder to find than the other and I think we have a player or two in our system that can do for us what Brown does so nicely for the Kings

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07-31-2006, 11:50 PM
  #27
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No way do I do Staal for Frolov.

Frolov...Dawes..your talking..Jessiman....Frolov...your talking.

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08-01-2006, 12:13 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by LeftKinger View Post
Thats great and all but Brown is in the NHL. I know its HFBoards and a lot of people think that the unproven young prospect who had a great season in the AHL, OHL, QMJHL, NCAA Etc. is better than the young player who had a good season in the NHL but how could you say it isn't a fair deal. You don't know for sure if Montoya will pan out. The AHL is not the NHL. Brown is proven young player that at worst is a very good 3rd liner. I just don't get it.
Great for Brown, the question is, what has he done?

Montoya, who was drafted 2 YEARS AFTER, let's not forget that, has had stellar seasons in college, and in the AHL, and most likely will in the NHL. There is a MUCH HIGHER ceiling for a guy like Montoya than there is for Brown. Montoya is a prospect, Brown is not anymore, and he's not a wunderkind at the NHL level, so I'm not willing to trade a potential ELITE starting goaltender for a guy who's at his best a 2nd line power forward in the mold of Adam Deadmarsh, which was instantly my first thought of him when I saw him play for the Kings, on my center ice package. It's about potential, and ceilings. Goaltenders are THE HARDEST to draft. When you get an EXCEPTIONAL talent like Montoya, you can only deal him if the return is absolutely flooring.

It's not homerism, you're FAR OFF on that. It's just a matter of having a clear-cut better talent at a more important position which is harder to draft players in.

It's as simple as that.

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08-01-2006, 12:17 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 51tyutin51 View Post
No way do I do Staal for Frolov.

Frolov...Dawes..your talking..Jessiman....Frolov...your talking.
this is the exact homer post I am talking about, Jessiman may never play in the NHL Frolov was on pace for over 60 points last year. Dawes may play one day but at this point he is a tier b prospect who might get you an Avery, a Scott Thorton or a mid level pick.

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08-01-2006, 12:26 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by funky View Post
this is the exact homer post I am talking about, Jessiman may never play in the NHL Frolov was on pace for over 60 points last year. Dawes may play one day but at this point he is a tier b prospect who might get you an Avery, a Scott Thorton or a mid level pick.
51tyutin51's post was a bit over-the-top, I hope that's just sarcasm or a poke of some sort.

But realistically, Dawes could fetch more in a package, a guy like Dawes could help garner a significant return if it came down to it. I don't know about Jessiman, especially after his last 2 years. Raw potential is great, his development is piss-poor to this point.

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08-01-2006, 12:31 AM
  #31
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No.No.No.

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Old
08-01-2006, 12:34 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funky View Post
this is the exact homer post I am talking about, Jessiman may never play in the NHL Frolov was on pace for over 60 points last year. Dawes may play one day but at this point he is a tier b prospect who might get you an Avery, a Scott Thorton or a mid level pick.
You wanna know why we dont wanna give up Staal???? Because we have seen him improve and we think he has a tremendous upside. Plus, we dont really need Frolov. Yes he's good, yes he's proven he can be an offensive force. But our top lines are pretty set right now with the additions of Shanahan and Cullen. We also believe in someone named Petr Prucha, who had a WONDERFUL season. We can see him becoming a 60 goal scoring sometime in the future. We also need tough top pairing defensemen, and we happen to have on of the top prospects in the league in that respect (take a poll, I dare ya.)

You can call believing in the upsides of your prospects being a homer if you want. Or you can also leave.

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Old
08-01-2006, 12:46 AM
  #33
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You can call believing in the upsides of your prospects being a homer if you want.
Read the post correctly before jumping on someone. He didn't say that. He was calling the poster a homer because he said that Jessiman or Dawes for Frolov was a fair deal.

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Old
08-01-2006, 01:03 AM
  #34
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I look at Potential...NOT whose playing in the NHL and not. Malkin isnt playing in the NHL- does that mean he wont get a good return?

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08-01-2006, 01:05 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by 51tyutin51 View Post
I look at Potential...NOT whose playing in the NHL and not. Malkin isnt playing in the NHL- does that mean he wont get a good return?

I think we both know that this comparison isn't even remotely fair.

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Old
08-01-2006, 01:25 AM
  #36
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No way I'm doing that deal.Why trade the future for a supposed quick fix? Staal has the potential to be another Beukeboom,IMO.Even better,in fact.I personally,have been waiting for another Beukeboom to make himself known on this team.Given his size,I don't see why that can't happen.Also,given this guy's pedigree,what with being part of hockey's current first family,I'm actually excited about seeing this kid play. So,I pass

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08-01-2006, 01:40 AM
  #37
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so talking Montoya for O'Sullivan or Montoya for Kopitar qualifies for Homerism? Obviously not Montoya for both. If you thought I thought that, you sir would be the homer to even think I'd think such a thing could ever happen much less Montoya for Crosby or Ovechkin. Of course we'd take such deals. Frolov and Brown are 2nd line guys. We are not going to trade a future starting goalie for 2nd liners of which we have tons of potentials in our system which is why first line talent like O'Sullivan and Kopitar is what would get us interested in a trade. I would prefer Staal over O'Sullivan OR Kopitar (read: this is a personal preference) because #1 dmen are harder to come by than 1st line talent. See the first 13 picks of last year's draft. I think 10 or 13 were centers.

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08-01-2006, 01:57 AM
  #38
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I would prefer Staal over O'Sullivan OR Kopitar (read: this is a personal preference) because #1 dmen are harder to come by than 1st line talent. See the first 13 picks of last year's draft. I think 10 or 13 were centers.
That's exactly how I feel...O'Sullivan would be great but having a potential #1 defenseman in Staal who has the work ethic, talent/skill, and attitude to succeed at the NHL level is something that rarely comes. All he needs is a bit more grooming (most likely in the AHL) and he should be ready to make an impact.

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08-01-2006, 05:19 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by LeftKinger View Post
Would you guys do this deal?

To NYR: Alexander Frolov

To LA: Marc Staal

Frolov is a very good 1st line two way forward who can play both the PP and PK. He has improved every year he has been in the league and he is signed for another 4 years at 2.9M per year. Frolov might become available since Lombardi seemingly isn't very high on him, which is rediculous to me.

To clarify, this proposal thread is a reaction to Kings GM Dean Lombardi's answers to fans at the recent Breakfast with the GM in LA, where he put forth the notion that unless Frolov begins to start playing with some heart and step up consistently, he may not have a place on the team.
Instead of Staal, how about Fedor Federov? One softy for another.

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Old
08-01-2006, 05:41 AM
  #40
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Not dealing

Really not even close. While we don't know how Staal or Montoya will play in NHL we are building a contender for years to come. Good teams are built up the middle in any sport, these guys are two great prospects. Why trade them? We don't need any one player. If Al plays well, then we have two super goalies, either could be a #1 on any team, that could be awesome.

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08-01-2006, 07:56 AM
  #41
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LeftWinger and Funky are waaaay off here.

Frolov's ceiling is nowhere compared to Marc Staal's. Staal won the top defenseman at the WJC for a reason.

BTW Dawes for Avery is pathetic. Guy has scored at every level, and you want to trade him for Avery.

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08-01-2006, 08:01 AM
  #42
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LeftWinger and Funky are waaaay off here.

Frolov's ceiling is nowhere compared to Marc Staal's. Staal won the top defenseman at the WJC for a reason.

BTW Dawes for Avery is pathetic. Guy has scored at every level, and you want to trade him for Avery.
how about Montoya, Rozsival and Betts for Dustin Brown and Sean Avery??

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08-01-2006, 09:26 AM
  #43
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LeftWinger and Funky are waaaay off here.

Frolov's ceiling is nowhere compared to Marc Staal's. Staal won the top defenseman at the WJC for a reason.

BTW Dawes for Avery is pathetic. Guy has scored at every level, and you want to trade him for Avery.
So Chief, I take it you wou be more then willing to trade Pucha for Tukonen? By your logic Tukonen has scores at every level and been in the top 5 scorers at a couple world junior championships. He also was one of the youngest players in the AHL last year and even playing with injuries did very well. Prucha, like Frolov, has proven he can score in the NHL and like Frolov slumped in the last part of the year due to injures.

Now remember I am a fan of each team but if I am L.A and Sather comes to me and sayd Pucha for Tukonen staight up I do it.

WHY? bcause even with Tukonens super high ceiling and potential verses Prucha's little frame and suprise year, Prucha is proven in the NHL and is still young. Tukonen is a Deeadmarsh type with huge upside but he has yet to skate in the NHL and may be a Dube.

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08-01-2006, 09:40 AM
  #44
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Remember I am a fan of each team but I know Montoya has never played one game in the big leagues so far and has also had up and down seasons.
Up and down seasons? He made the AHL All-Star team in his first professional year and two years prior to that, led Team USA to the WJC. Yes, the sandwich year was a bit of a let down, but let's keep thing in prespective here. He has managed to take a rather big step forward in his development and projects to be an elite (not just good) goaltender. Those do not exactly grow on trees.

Quote:
Staal looks great so far but thats in the OHL not the NHL.

Point being Frolov is a proven 2nd liner with a good contract and a good upside who has already proven himself. Staal has great potential but there is also a chance is a Dale Puriton, doubtful but still unproven.
Sure Staal COULD bust, but so too can Frolov and Brown wake up and discover that they are just another Daigle. Right now, Staal projects as a top-pairing defenseman. Those do not grow on trees either. He stood out from a very, very good Canadian team during the WJC. It was his play that shut down every other big-time prospect that other countries could offer (including Kessel & Malkin....as a matter of fact, Malkin was rather invisible every time Staal was on the ice).

Which is not to say that either Frolov or Brown are bad. I see both as good NHL playlers. However neither warrant an inclusion of either Montoya or Staal in any trade scenario.

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08-01-2006, 09:41 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by AHall18 View Post
how about Montoya, Rozsival and Betts for Dustin Brown and Sean Avery??


Montoya - great potential, at worst great backup, at best Richter Rozsival - proven but inflated by Jagr
Betts - young, brittle, undervalued when healthy

Brown - like Montoya, worst 3rd line talented checker with big hits
best - poor mas Deadmarsh
Avery - worst- team cancer/ idiot best 20 goal a year superpest with great wheels


L.A does it- Why - Montoya has great potential, Roszival is proven at a position they need upgraded and Betts is big up the middle, great th line center

NYR doesn't - Why - If Brown was taken out for Frolov then probably, but Brown has potential to be a crashing 2nd liner and is already a proven 2nd liner. Probably not enough to get Montoya who will survive on potential and a solid AHL season. Avery for Rozsival woud be right. Now put Folov a proven 1st/ 2nd line scorer/ defensive player with 1st line superstar potential and he should be enough to grab the above package if L.A through in Avery. But I doubt L.A does the trade.

Trades are all dependant on a teams needs and direction. Right now with L.A rebuilding and no where close they will probably try to build from within. The Rangers are much closer and only a little grit away. Jagr only has a couple years left and with the addition of Shanny and a stellar goaltender they may be inclinded to trade a more valued prospect for those missing pieces to mae a great run at the cup. I really hope they take crack at Leetch as a PP specialist 18 minute a night guy.

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08-01-2006, 09:43 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funky View Post
Montoya - great potential, at worst great backup, at best Richter Rozsival - proven but inflated by Jagr
Betts - young, brittle, undervalued when healthy

Brown - like Montoya, worst 3rd line talented checker with big hits
best - poor mas Deadmarsh
Avery - worst- team cancer/ idiot best 20 goal a year superpest with great wheels


L.A does it- Why - Montoya has great potential, Roszival is proven at a position they need upgraded and Betts is big up the middle, great th line center

NYR doesn't - Why - If Brown was taken out for Frolov then probably, but Brown has potential to be a crashing 2nd liner and is already a proven 2nd liner. Probably not enough to get Montoya who will survive on potential and a solid AHL season. Avery for Rozsival woud be right. Now put Folov a proven 1st/ 2nd line scorer/ defensive player with 1st line superstar potential and he should be enough to grab the above package if L.A through in Avery. But I doubt L.A does the trade.

Trades are all dependant on a teams needs and direction. Right now with L.A rebuilding and no where close they will probably try to build from within. The Rangers are much closer and only a little grit away. Jagr only has a couple years left and with the addition of Shanny and a stellar goaltender they may be inclinded to trade a more valued prospect for those missing pieces to mae a great run at the cup. I really hope they take crack at Leetch as a PP specialist 18 minute a night guy.
lets make a team full of non physical euros id rather get Brown than Frolov. I also like Gleason but doubt they would deal him.

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Old
08-01-2006, 10:14 AM
  #47
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So Chief, I take it you wou be more then willing to trade Pucha for Tukonen? By your logic Tukonen has scores at every level and been in the top 5 scorers at a couple world junior championships. He also was one of the youngest players in the AHL last year and even playing with injuries did very well. Prucha, like Frolov, has proven he can score in the NHL and like Frolov slumped in the last part of the year due to injures.

Now remember I am a fan of each team but if I am L.A and Sather comes to me and sayd Pucha for Tukonen staight up I do it.

WHY? bcause even with Tukonens super high ceiling and potential verses Prucha's little frame and suprise year, Prucha is proven in the NHL and is still young. Tukonen is a Deeadmarsh type with huge upside but he has yet to skate in the NHL and may be a Dube.
I would consider the deal, it is not a far fetched propsal.

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08-01-2006, 10:23 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by LeftKinger View Post
HOMER

You come on this board and call someone a homer, after you make a ridiculous trade proposal. Let me give you a guy, who plays with no heart for one of the better defenseman prospects.

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08-01-2006, 10:37 AM
  #49
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You wanna know why we dont wanna give up Staal???? Because we have seen him improve and we think he has a tremendous upside. Plus, we dont really need Frolov. Yes he's good, yes he's proven he can be an offensive force. But our top lines are pretty set right now with the additions of Shanahan and Cullen. We also believe in someone named Petr Prucha, who had a WONDERFUL season. We can see him becoming a 60 goal scoring sometime in the future. We also need tough top pairing defensemen, and we happen to have on of the top prospects in the league in that respect (take a poll, I dare ya.)

You can call believing in the upsides of your prospects being a homer if you want. Or you can also leave.
60 goals?!?

I love Prucha, but no way.

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Old
08-01-2006, 10:50 AM
  #50
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this is the exact homer post I am talking about, Jessiman may never play in the NHL Frolov was on pace for over 60 points last year. Dawes may play one day but at this point he is a tier b prospect who might get you an Avery, a Scott Thorton or a mid level pick.

And your calling us the homers? Do some research.

How about O'Sullivan for Straka? That seems fair in your eyes, O'sullivan never has played an NHL game and straka is a proven NHL player who scored 75 points last year, this should be a huge steal for you, or maybe you could get a 2nd round pick for him

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