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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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03-17-2013, 01:53 AM
  #401
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One of the biggest problems on the PP are zone entries and puck retrieval. That's mostly on the coach. Even in-zone setup is largely on the coach and not the players. Bad players can't make a good setup go, but good players can't make a **** setup go either. Best example being Pens in 09-10 (I believe it was then).
I actually like AV's game plan for the zone entries though. Edler is a great skater and puck carrier and executes the 20 foot drop pass to perfection. Watching them predictably skate it in to the half wall and win almost half their battles on the boards is one of the true treats we're privileged to as fans. I don't understand why more people don't recognize this.

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03-17-2013, 01:53 AM
  #402
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I actually like AV's game plan for the zone entries though. Edler is a great skater and puck carrier and executes the 20 foot drop pass to perfection. Watching them predictably skate it in to the half wall and win almost half their battles on the boards is one of the true treats we're privileged to as fans. I don't understand why more people don't recognize this.
Said no one ever

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03-17-2013, 01:55 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I actually like AV's game plan for the zone entries though. Edler is a great skater and puck carrier and executes the 20 foot drop pass to perfection. Watching them predictably skate it in to the half wall and win almost half their battles on the boards is one of the true treats we're privileged to as fans. I don't understand why more people don't recognize this.
What I don't get is how anyone can actually come away from this thinking that AV is blameless or should shoulder less blame than the players. Either the players are making this **** up, in which case it's a negative because it means they tuned the coaches out. Or this is the strategy given to them by the coaches in which case it looks bad on the coaches because it hasn't worked in over a year now.

There's honestly no angle to the team's current play that makes the coaches look good.

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03-17-2013, 02:00 AM
  #404
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When is this **** going to be fired. He is obviously not making the players work hard enough, the ****ing D is the problem and AV still blame the top players and the pp for our loss in games. He needs to **** his ego.
Regardless of who you think is to blame, It is the top lines and PP not scoring that has meant we have lost the games we have.

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03-17-2013, 02:01 AM
  #405
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Martin Rennie for coach.

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03-17-2013, 02:09 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
What I don't get is how anyone can actually come away from this thinking that AV is blameless or should shoulder less blame than the players. Either the players are making this **** up, in which case it's a negative because it means they tuned the coaches out. Or this is the strategy given to them by the coaches in which case it looks bad on the coaches because it hasn't worked in over a year now.

There's honestly no angle to the team's current play that makes the coaches look good.
I think it's 75% coaching, 15% players and 10% Gillis/personnel. No one is blameless, except maybe Tanev.

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Martin Rennie for coach.
How about the complete turnaround in styles between 2012 Whitecaps and 2013 Canucks? All defense/no offense team and all offense/questionable defense team trade strategies.

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03-17-2013, 02:10 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
What I don't get is how anyone can actually come away from this thinking that AV is blameless or should shoulder less blame than the players. Either the players are making this **** up, in which case it's a negative because it means they tuned the coaches out. Or this is the strategy given to them by the coaches in which case it looks bad on the coaches because it hasn't worked in over a year now.

There's honestly no angle to the team's current play that makes the coaches look good.
Dose anyone think AV is blameless?? there have been 4 players that have looked good in this entire organisation, from the GM and coaches, down to, well it starts to look a bit better in the K wings and CHL...

IMO it is a combination of strategy, execution and personal.

And if we assume that MG makes moves, since they tend to come out of nowhere, then all 3 are being worked on.

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03-17-2013, 02:12 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I think it's 75% coaching, 15% players and 10% Gillis/personnel. No one is blameless, except maybe Tanev.
Oh, don't get me wrong, players are plenty to blame.

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Dose anyone think AV is blameless??
That's my feeling from reading the GDT. There is a decently sized group of fans that think he can do no wrong.

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03-17-2013, 02:13 AM
  #409
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Martin Rennie for coach.
The Renniessance(again)

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03-17-2013, 02:14 AM
  #410
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I'm a little on the fence regarding the PP. Sure, we have a PP coach and he should be coming up with something, but the PP is a time of pure skill and those players just are not getting it done. They're the ones on the ice, if they cant break coverage, recover pucks, screen, get shot through etc etc. it is on them.
Mike Keenan believed that. He didn't even have his teams practice the PP. That's one of the reasons why he's not in the NHL anymore.

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03-17-2013, 02:16 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
Dose anyone think AV is blameless??
Someone in a another thread said this yesterday:

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AV's track record is nearly flawless.
I nearly choked.

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03-17-2013, 02:17 AM
  #412
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Said no one ever
Did you just quote yourself as opposed to editing?


I still stand by my comment that despite what most of us think, AV's leach is pretty loose.

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03-17-2013, 02:17 AM
  #413
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Mike Keenan believed that. He didn't even have his teams practice the PP. That's one of the reasons why he's not in the NHL anymore.
The way good teams coach offense is becoming far more reliant on set plays. Meanwhile Canucks, outside of the Sedins who create their own set plays, are still throwing players out there and letting them cycle while hoping the other team makes a mistake. You just can't expect to break down the structured defense and goaltending in today's hockey through brute force, at least not consistently enough.

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03-17-2013, 02:20 AM
  #414
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Someone in a another thread said this yesterday:



I nearly choked.
So Kelly Hrudey posts on HF? He thinks AV is brilliant.

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03-17-2013, 02:21 AM
  #415
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Did you just quote yourself as opposed to editing sarcasm smiley?
Yes.

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03-17-2013, 02:25 AM
  #416
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he rarely ever ever blames himself....

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03-17-2013, 02:27 AM
  #417
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he rarely ever ever blames himself....
To the media.

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03-17-2013, 02:37 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
To the media.
You know, if he's willing to admit 'in the room' that he's to blame, why wouldn't he be willing to say it out in the open? This is really just reaching here. Are you suggesting he - as a professional hockey coach - either lies to the public or is afraid to admit he makes mistakes?

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03-17-2013, 02:39 AM
  #419
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
To the media.
I don't get it. Do you think he goes into the dressing room and tells the players it they played well tonight and the loss was on his coaching? Then goes out to the press and tells them his top players aren't getting it done on the powerplay and takes zero responsibility?

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03-17-2013, 02:45 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
Mike Keenan believed that. He didn't even have his teams practice the PP. That's one of the reasons why he's not in the NHL anymore.
I'm not saying the coaches are blameless on the PP. I believe as others have said about zone entry and whatnot, but the PP is fluid and the players on the ice have the ability (or should have) to pull defenders out of position, get shots through etc. Bobbling passes, getting pressured or outworked in the corners and such is all on them.

With the importance of special teams, there are times when I think teams should practice the PP and Pk exclusively.

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03-17-2013, 02:48 AM
  #421
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
You know, if he's willing to admit 'in the room' that he's to blame, why wouldn't he be willing to say it out in the open? This is really just reaching here. Are you suggesting he - as a professional hockey coach - either lies to the public or is afraid to admit he makes mistakes?
Yeah, that's probably the way it is. A coach can do that once in a blue moon, but admitting anything like that to the public or the media is suicide.

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03-17-2013, 02:49 AM
  #422
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You know, if he's willing to admit 'in the room' that he's to blame, why wouldn't he be willing to say it out in the open? This is really just reaching here. Are you suggesting he - as a professional hockey coach - either lies to the public or is afraid to admit he makes mistakes?
Well I have sort of talked about what I think about that a page back...

On saying to the media that the blame is on himself or not.

"Both sides of the same coin, It is never always the coach and it is never not the coach, both are just ways of trying to, well, give sound bites to the media".

On weather he thinks it is him that is to blame.

"On truly believe he's doing anything wrong, is kind of relative to the individual, by that I mean, he knows (I would hope) that they have played crap, but you do things that you think are right, and if they don't work, you look at why. Treating success and failure the same way, a chance to get better."

No I am not suggesting he lies, I don't know what he believes or dosent, but there is a whole PR industry built around these sorts of things, so if you want to read into what he says in his pressers I would start looking there. I do believe he will say to the public what he thinks is best to say though. What he wants to achieve I do not know.

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03-17-2013, 02:50 AM
  #423
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I don't get it. Do you think he goes into the dressing room and tells the players it they played well tonight and the loss was on his coaching? Then goes out to the press and tells them his top players aren't getting it done on the powerplay and takes zero responsibility?
I do not think it is that black and white no.

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03-17-2013, 02:55 AM
  #424
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Yeah, that's probably the way it is. A coach can do that once in a blue moon, but admitting anything like that to the public or the media is suicide.
I don't see it that way actually. Babcock hasn't been afraid to take the blame for his team's poor showings this year. It shows a willingness to constantly try and improve, as well as a refusal to accept that "We've done our best" and an acknowledgement to their fans that they're not perfect. You get no sense of complacency from him at least.

I mean, you can't tell me that you've done everything you possibly could to get the PP going when you have FIVE lefties on the 1st unit... and then not even try for one-timers when they move the puck from left to right.

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03-17-2013, 03:04 AM
  #425
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Yeah, that's probably the way it is. A coach can do that once in a blue moon, but admitting anything like that to the public or the media is suicide.
Joel Quennville, after last season:
Quote:
I take ownership for what happened this year.

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