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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:12 PM
  #351
begbeee
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What a contrast.

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03-16-2013, 12:15 PM
  #352
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Selanne and Fedorov are nothing alike

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03-16-2013, 12:24 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by tomi2 View Post
I think this is a nice link that shows how appreciated Selanne was at his peak (1998). http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/103/103right.asp
What a find!
Selanne is ranked above Jagr (I love how Bondra is 3rd and described as no slouch in own zone) but why not take a look how Fedorov is treated among centers:
5. Sergei Fedorov, Detroit Red Wings: If the rankings were just on sheer talent, Fedorov might very well be number one. He's got so many skills they're falling out of his pockets. He's the best skater in hockey, a dazzling playmaker, can score goals, excels on defense, and has two Stanley Cups. What more do you want? Well, how about an honest effort every night? It's not that Fedorov does it intentionally, but there are games when he just doesn't show up. With his talent and speed he should be an impact player every time he takes the ice. That's just not the case. But when he's ready to play, look out. Stuff's gettin' messed up. Sergei also loses some points for that lengthy contract holdout that strained his relationship with some of his teammates. And then there's that whole dating-a-teenager thing that's neither here nor there. But hey, at least she's a world famous tennis star and not an intern...

Character was never an issue with Selanne.

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03-16-2013, 02:14 PM
  #354
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I don't have any preference for Selanne. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

I also think you're underrating Gilmour and Brind'Amour's defense. They were very, very good. Gilmour was basically Peca for the first three years of his career before he exploded in the 1984 playoffs.

And I'd suggest if you're 'choking on your own rage', you are tad bit emotionally attached to Fedorov and probably not looking at this objectively.



Actually, I'm not seeing all the really top-notch History board posters defending Fedorov. I mean, Big Phil went with Selanne. That's not to besmirch the guys who like Fedorov, I'm just saying that your view of this as a couple of Selanne fanboys arguing against all common sense is not at all accurate.
i'll put together a post about fedorov's defensive abilities relative to the two-way stars of his generation, as well as the selke guys (madden, lehtinen, peca). but that will have to come later-- other stuff to do right now.

for now, i'll just note that i don't actually care about fedorov. i'm not russian, despite what my username that references a guy who had a cup of coffee with the canucks suggests, and my second favourite team during the detroit bowman era was actually colorado-- huge roy fan, always had a soft spot for my hometown boy sakic.

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03-16-2013, 03:39 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
What a find!
Selanne is ranked above Jagr (I love how Bondra is 3rd and described as no slouch in own zone) but why not take a look how Fedorov is treated among centers:
5. Sergei Fedorov, Detroit Red Wings: If the rankings were just on sheer talent, Fedorov might very well be number one. He's got so many skills they're falling out of his pockets. He's the best skater in hockey, a dazzling playmaker, can score goals, excels on defense, and has two Stanley Cups. What more do you want? Well, how about an honest effort every night? It's not that Fedorov does it intentionally, but there are games when he just doesn't show up. With his talent and speed he should be an impact player every time he takes the ice. That's just not the case. But when he's ready to play, look out. Stuff's gettin' messed up. Sergei also loses some points for that lengthy contract holdout that strained his relationship with some of his teammates. And then there's that whole dating-a-teenager thing that's neither here nor there. But hey, at least she's a world famous tennis star and not an intern...

Character was never an issue with Selanne.
Meanwhile Selanne...http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/91/91teemu.asp

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03-16-2013, 04:23 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by tomi2 View Post
I think this is a nice link that shows how appreciated Selanne was at his peak (1998). http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/103/103right.asp
Yeah, but there's a lot of kind of strange stuff said on that list. It's not that Amonte is ranked in front of Bure at that point in time, it's this...

Quote:
4. Tony Amonte, Chicago Blackhawks: When discussing the best all-around forwards in the game, the usual names come up: Peter Forsberg, Ron Francis, Mike Modano, Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov. Well, it's about time that people start to realize that Amonte belongs in that group.

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03-16-2013, 05:16 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
What a find!
Selanne is ranked above Jagr (I love how Bondra is 3rd and described as no slouch in own zone) but why not take a look how Fedorov is treated among centers:
5. Sergei Fedorov, Detroit Red Wings
Who were those top 4 centres again?

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03-16-2013, 05:56 PM
  #358
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Fedorov's playoffs may not be as good as the idealized versions some are claiming here but it's pretty clear his playoff record is amazingly consistent. Certainly he did have some playoffs where he could have played better like 92 against Chicago as compared to how he manhandled Roenick in the regular season, or 94 vs SJS compared to his regular season although he might have had a mild concussion, or 03 vs the Ducks, but in many of those cases it isnt like the team played particularly well beside him. And when Fedorov was criticized in the playoffs like in 95/96 it was usually for stats which then became good or dumbass reasons like celebrating a meaningless goal in game 3 of the 95 finals. If you asked Red Wings fans about who the best player was in the cup runs the consensus would be Yzerman/Fedorov/Lidstrom aside from the people still bitter about Fedorov leaving.

I dont think Fedorov was better offensively than Selanne but it's quite clear that Selanne had a much more suitable role to score than Fedorov did for most of his career. Fedorov really only had the primary offensive role in 94/95/96/03. And in times like 95 and 03 it wasnt even a full offensive role. Plus Fedorov individually was just better on D. While Fedorov generally did have the better unit around him in the mid 90s in terms of a singular player Kariya is pretty clearly a better player to put up stats with than anyone Fedorov had. Cant believe somebody said Coffey. Coffey in 95 is the one that may come close but then counter that with Housely in 93...

And lastly it wasnt just saving himself/floating or all that BS that made Fedorov a 60-70 point player in the late 90s. As Fedorov himself says it was his new role and context. Share the icetime, dont play on the top offensive line with the top offensive wingers, and play in a more defensive system. This doesnt mean that Fedorov sucked defensively before this btw just like for Yzerman. Fedorov was always individually great defensively but now he was playing in a more defensive system.

Last thing... i dont think Kariya was better than Selanne in their primes but yeah this was the general opinion in the media esp early on. But even if you think Kariya was better by how much? To me they were basically equals.

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03-16-2013, 07:54 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by tomi2 View Post
LCS! That was a pretty funny site. But I'd take any rankings they did with an extreme grain of salt. They were just a few guys from Pittsburgh who could turn a phrase (I'm pretty sure I added both "pimp smooth" and "blah, blah, blah, unicorn blah" to my lexicon due to their usage on that site), but their hockey analysis shouldn't be taken too seriously. Much more "funny fans" than serious analysts.

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And lastly it wasnt just saving himself/floating or all that BS that made Fedorov a 60-70 point player in the late 90s. As Fedorov himself says it was his new role and context. Share the icetime, dont play on the top offensive line with the top offensive wingers, and play in a more defensive system. This doesnt mean that Fedorov sucked defensively before this btw just like for Yzerman. Fedorov was always individually great defensively but now he was playing in a more defensive system.
This is certainly true, but even under those conditions Fedorov should have been more than a 60-70 point player. There were numerous stories/quotes from the likes of Yzerman, Larionov, and Bowman over those years talking about trying to get Sergei going. And it was really easy to see on the ice. Fedorov playing against Forsberg or Jagr in those years was light years better than Fedorov playing against an average opponent or average team. If he'd given an honest effort every game he would have been at least a 70-80 point player in the late 90s. That was what was so frustrating about him. He still had the opportunity and talent to play at a level close to his Hart season, he just didn't have the motivation.


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03-16-2013, 08:55 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Couldn't agree more. Players like gilmour, datsyuk, brind'amour and peak modano are pretty much on fedorov's level defensively. (mod)
This statement is absolutely not true. Datsyuk is the only one with an argument, and IMHO he wasn't the best defensive forward on his team when he won his Selkes.

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Fedorov finished top 15 in scoring a grand total of 4 times, the offensive gap between the two is very large. Offense from a forward is significantly more important, and selanne has him beat clear cut in terms of durability. Teemu has surpassed Sergei and in 10 years he will be ranked higher when its all said and done. Red Wings fans want to make all the excuses they want for fedorov, I can easily bring up the issue of selanne's knees. If he had surgery done earlier, he would dust fedorov away offensively and really thats the main job of a forward, to go out and score.
That keeps being repeated. "Offense is the most important thing." No, what's most important is "more goals". Whether that occurs by scoring 4 and giving up 3, or scoring 3 and giving up 1, the point is to win. And Fedorov was better at creating a positive goal differential - in other words, creating offense for his own team combined with impeding the opponent's offense - than Selanne was/is.

Which is really the question being asked. Because "Who is the better player" ultimately comes down to "Who is (individually) more likely to cause his team to win?"

Quote:
Selanne has 3 seasons where he was in the conversation for best forward, fedorov has like 1.

Thier hart voting, a criteria devilmademe loves to use.
Selanne: 3, 5, 5, 6, 9
Fedorov: 1,5, 9.
Selanne received fringe mentions in 1993. A couple of his best seasons in the later 90s coincided with Jaromir Jagr and Pavel Bure missing significant time.

Fedorov, on the other hand, won the Hart over Gretzky. He was in the conversation in 1996 (and should have been on the postseason all-star team ahead of Messier; that was a travesty in voting).

Fedorov played on a team with other highly skilled players such as Yzerman, Shanahan, Konstantinov, and Osgood who received Hart votes in 1996, as well as Coffey (1995), Lidstrom (1998, 2001, 2003), and Cheveldae (1992). After that, he had 5 games with Selanne and Niedermayer (2006), and then Ovechkin (2008, 2009) and Green (2009).

Selanne had Hart-vote teammates in Tkachuk (1996), Kariya (1996, 1997, 1999), Hebert (1997), Nabokov (2001), Sakic (2004), S.Niedermayer (2006, 2007, 2008), Pronger (2007), Getzlaf (2009, 2011), Perry (2011), Visnovsky (2011)

But Fedorov played on the *deeper* and more successful teams, and he didn't put up as many points as often. So he clearly wasn't as worthy a Hart candidate as Selanne was, based on any criteria.

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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
When he was put in Selanne's position he did what? Yes, he led Ducks in points with stellar 65 points year to nonplayoff year.

Fedorov is more in category what he could be than what he actually was. And this fact is overrun with defense argument from his fanboys.
Fedorov was playing alongside a prime Paul Kariya, who was scoring 4 points every 3 games? I must have missed those Ducks games... in fact, I thought Kariya was with the Avs along with Selanne at the time. And that Fedorov's most offensively talented teammate was a 54-point Vinny Prospal, followed by 52-point Petr Sykora. He had two guys who were mediocre offensive players with little to no defensive game. Steve Rucchin (Selanne's former center) was the second-best forward on the team, but centered the second line.

I just wonder how things would have worked out had they kept Fedorov instead of trading him in 2005. Fedorov, Selanne, and Niedermayer would have been a pretty killer combo.

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03-16-2013, 11:54 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Count me on Selanne side in this thread. I can't respond to everything, but it's clear Fedorov was not as good as some make him to be. Yeah, sure..that one helluva season goes to Fedorov. I wrote like few pages before Fedorov had the luxury of no need to put up 100% effort during regular season. And yes he had luxury of playing against at least one punching bag on the everyyear way to finals. His defensive aspect of game can't hold the candle to Selanne's production, especially after Fedorov should-be-his-prime 60 points years. When he was put in Selanne's position he did what? Yes, he led Ducks in points with stellar 65 points year to nonplayoff year.

Fedorov is more in category what he could be than what he actually was. And this fact is overrun with defense argument from his fanboys.
Exactly, posters like eva unit zero is just making excuses, like he always does in yzerman threads. Both yzerman and feds had one huge outlier season outside thier norm, and that was it. He can make all the bs excuses he wants like 4 lines rolled into 1, limited offensive role, it doesnt matter. Fedorov had to sacrifice his offense big time in order to have his two way game. He's the worst offensive player that is eligible for a top 100 list.

Fedorov had the opportunity to prove himself in anaheim and he puts up his usual 65 points of mediocrity. Fedorov fans can keep talking about he could have cracked the top 5 in scoring year after year, but he didnt.

Fedorov's defensive impact in terms of reducing a team's overall 'goals against' is nothing compared to actual shutdown defenseman like langway, savard, lidstrom. I swear people act like his hart season is equivalent to a forward scoring 160-180 points. Playing excellent defense at most makes up for 10-15 points.

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03-16-2013, 11:58 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Exactly, posters like eva unit zero is just making excuses, like he always does in yzerman threads. Both yzerman and feds had one huge outlier season outside thier norm, and that was it. He can make all the bs excuses he wants like 4 lines rolled into 1, limited offensive role, it doesnt matter. Fedorov had to sacrifice his offense big time in order to have his two way game. He's the worst offensive player that is eligible for a top 100 list.

Fedorov had the opportunity to prove himself in anaheim and he puts up his usual 65 points of mediocrity. Fedorov fans can keep talking about he could have cracked the top 5 in scoring year after year, but he didnt.

Fedorov's defensive impact in terms of reducing a team's overall 'goals against' is nothing compared to actual shutdown defenseman like langway, savard, lidstrom. I swear people act like his hart season is equivalent to a forward scoring 160-180 points. Playing excellent defense at most makes up for 10-15 points.
Pavel Datsyuk came into tonight 20 points and more than 20 spots in league scoring behind Sidney Crosby (Datsyuk only two games in hand), and yet those two are undoubtedly the cream of the "overall" talent crop league-wide. Discuss.

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03-17-2013, 12:01 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Pavel Datsyuk came into tonight 20 points and more than 20 spots in league scoring behind Sidney Crosby (Datsyuk only two games in hand), and yet those two are undoubtedly the cream of the "overall" talent crop league-wide. Discuss.
When datsyuk won his 2 selkes, malkin and ovechkin were considered the 2 best players, not datsyuk, discuss. However, with fedorov, his defense seems to make up for guys that would outscore him by over 30 points, lol.

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03-17-2013, 12:28 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
When datsyuk won his 2 selkes, malkin and ovechkin were considered the 2 best players, not datsyuk, discuss. However, with fedorov, his defense seems to make up for guys that would outscore him by over 30 points, lol.
For the multiple reasons laid out already, the absolute magnitude of Fedorov's offensive numbers isn't held against him for good reason. After all the talk about team composition and strategy, we still watched him night after night, year after year, 80% effort games to 110% effort games, and knew he was better than just about everyone else as a "complete player", and was certainly at the very top in terms of raw skill to begin with. Part of the proof (among the myriad other aspects already discussed)? Results that no other team has reproduced since: consecutive championships as one of, if not THE key player(s) in the cause.

Just like it doesn't matter that Crosby has 65 more points (in ~90 fewer games, at that) since the lockout than Datsyuk. Whether we accept Ovechkin or Crosby as the "top guy" for the past 7 years or so ("overall"), how far from the very top does Datsyuk ever appear in conversations about the best "overall" players in the league at any point along the line? There are no more than ~4 players one can possibly rank between them in "overall" terms over that entire stretch, imo.

A past example from the very same organization, same general thing goes for Fedorov over his best years, regardless wherever he ended up in the Art Ross race year to year. Besides one year where one publication seemingly compared Selanne to Jagr (offensively is all that mattered?) I'm pretty sure that would have been (and still is) a fairly ludicrous claim to make of him (Selanne) in an "overall" context at any point.

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03-17-2013, 01:26 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I swear people act like his hart season is equivalent to a forward scoring 160-180 points. Playing excellent defense at most makes up for 10-15 points.
So you're saying that that 10-15 points is on top of an average defensive forward, or the worst defensive forward in the league?

How about this:

1993-94 Fedorov against Gretzky? How much is Fedorov's defense worth, and how much is Gretzky's defense worth? You are clearly valuing offense more than the PHWA does, or at least did in 1993-94.

In 1999-00, Sakic scored 81 points to Yzerman's 79, despite Sakic missing 22 games and Yzerman missing only 4. Both were top-ten scorers and PPG+. Yzerman won the Selke and was the first-team center, while Mike Modano (77GP, 38 goals, 81 points) went to the second-team. Jeremy Roenick (75GP, 78 points) was the only other center to receive any first-place votes (3), and all three of the others beat him based on their first-place votes alone. With all of them so close together, Yzerman seems the obvious choice as the Selke winner. But with Sakic having missed so many games, he's effectively scoring at a pace 30 points higher. He'd basically have to have gone from a 1.35 PPG player to a 0.59 PPG player (or less) for your "point value" to be accurate. And it's not as if he gets marked down much for being unproven; he has scored nearly 120 in the past, over 100 many times, and he tied Modano for first among centers in points.

Yet Yzerman, the Selke-winning defensive forward version, is the player who is named to the first-team.

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03-17-2013, 01:33 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Modano skated the most like Fedorov out of those guys, I'll give you that. That is about it.

Modano's defensive play is crazy overblown around here lately and no where near Fedorov imo.

I'd personally take Francis', Gilmour's or Brind'amour's defensive play over Modano any day of the week.
Over the course of all these players careers i would agree with you but at their peaks Modano is the closet guy to Fedorov defensively speaking.

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03-17-2013, 01:52 AM
  #367
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And in his last season as a Red Wing, he scored 83 points. Guess what? Fedorov had Prospal and Sykora in the low 50s as the only other talented forwards on the team in Anaheim that first year. He played more ES time than he had in Detroit, but his PP time wasn't any higher. And Niclas Havelid was the highest scoring defenseman on the team.

People look at what Rick Nash has shown he can potentially do, and give him the benefit of the doubt. Fedorov actually DID dominate the league. Maybe he didn't put up the overall numbers every year. But he was one of the league's best players.; I refer back to the ES stats I posted above.
waht you say here is very true.

At age 34 he led his team in points by 11 and was by far the best two way player as well.

The 2nd line center, the immortal Steve Rucchin was a full 22 points behind him.

But others focus on the counting stats and give a simplistic view to his "poor season" as if team composition didn't matter.

I like Selanne and think that at times he gets under appreciated on these boards, mainly due to his playoff resume, but Fedorov was simply a stud workhorse player that a team could count on for winning for well over a decade.

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03-17-2013, 01:58 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
For the multiple reasons laid out already, the absolute magnitude of Fedorov's offensive numbers isn't held against him for good reason. After all the talk about team composition and strategy, we still watched him night after night, year after year, 80% effort games to 110% effort games, and knew he was better than just about everyone else as a "complete player", and was certainly at the very top in terms of raw skill to begin with. Part of the proof (among the myriad other aspects already discussed)? Results that no other team has reproduced since: consecutive championships as one of, if not THE key player(s) in the cause.

Just like it doesn't matter that Crosby has 65 more points (in ~90 fewer games, at that) since the lockout than Datsyuk. Whether we accept Ovechkin or Crosby as the "top guy" for the past 7 years or so ("overall"), how far from the very top does Datsyuk ever appear in conversations about the best "overall" players in the league at any point along the line? There are no more than ~4 players one can possibly rank between them in "overall" terms over that entire stretch, imo.

A past example from the very same organization, same general thing goes for Fedorov over his best years, regardless wherever he ended up in the Art Ross race year to year. Besides one year where one publication seemingly compared Selanne to Jagr (offensively is all that mattered?) I'm pretty sure that would have been (and still is) a fairly ludicrous claim to make of him (Selanne) in an "overall" context at any point.
Excellent post and great insight on the "overall Value" of players.

Too often people simply look at the counting stats when ranking players, which is an important component of all forwards and their game to be sure, but not the be all and end all.

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03-17-2013, 02:54 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
When datsyuk won his 2 selkes, malkin and ovechkin were considered the 2 best players, not datsyuk, discuss. However, with fedorov, his defense seems to make up for guys that would outscore him by over 30 points, lol.
Datsyuk was named to the 2nd All-Star team over Crosby in 2009 and was a Hart finalist. So it seems he was in the conversation with Malkin and Ovechkin.

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03-17-2013, 03:19 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov was playing alongside a prime Paul Kariya, who was scoring 4 points every 3 games? I must have missed those Ducks games... in fact, I thought Kariya was with the Avs along with Selanne at the time. And that Fedorov's most offensively talented teammate was a 54-point Vinny Prospal, followed by 52-point Petr Sykora. He had two guys who were mediocre offensive players with little to no defensive game. Steve Rucchin (Selanne's former center) was the second-best forward on the team, but centered the second line.

I just wonder how things would have worked out had they kept Fedorov instead of trading him in 2005. Fedorov, Selanne, and Niedermayer would have been a pretty killer combo.
So basically you're selling me that 60+ points Fedorov who plays with multiple HOFers (in Detroit) on the line and in the defense is - i don't know what..acceptable? - but Selanne's play with one and only fringe HOFer Kariya makes his numbers inflated?
Poor Fedorov, playing with quite talented Prospal who just came from PPG season with decent 30-goals scoring winger Sykora (who just came from the best offensive line in NHL), gets free pass again.

Come on! How do you explain 1998 season, when Selanne won Richard, was TOP10 in scoring and played on team where third best player on team got 36 points, while Kariya was injured for almost whole season???? That's Bure-esque (Florida) level of play!

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
But others focus on the counting stats and give a simplistic view to his "poor season" as if team composition didn't matter.
Why team composition didn't matter when Fedorov played in Detroit stacked with HOFers, while Selanne played in freakin' Mickey Mouse team where except for Kariya played garbage of other teams?
When positions are swaped, miraculously Fedorov can't produce and it's all okey. On the other hand when Selanne was in Fedorov position on Olympic Line, his production didn't change and it didn't change when Kariya was out of roster and he had to play with Rucchin at the best.

Selanne produced excellent offensive output no matter of his team and teammates, can't say that about Fedorov.


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03-17-2013, 09:31 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
So basically you're selling me that 60+ points Fedorov who plays with multiple HOFers (in Detroit) on the line
The only time Fedorov played with HOFers on his line for any extended stretch of games was the 2002 playoffs. He had Yzerman - playing wing because he was unable to skate to play center - and Shanahan. He played the occasional game in 1995-96 and 1996-97 with Kozlov and Larionov, but generally didn't play with Larionov after that. Primary reason?

The primary reasons? Bowman considered Yzerman, Fedorov, and Larionov all best-used at center. The team had the depth to do it (unlike Murray's early-90s teams which attempted the same with Carson, when Carson was the third-best forward on the team by a fair margin). Shanahan, in Bowman's eye, fit best with Yzerman, and fit much better with Larionov than Fedorov. Or possibly he felt that Kozlov was a far better fit than Shanahan, and didn't want to break that combination up (often). Regardless, it resulted in Fedorov often getting the worst or close to the worst linemates of any top center.

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and in the defense is - i don't know what..acceptable? - but Selanne's play with one and only fringe HOFer Kariya makes his numbers inflated?
Poor Fedorov, playing with quite talented Prospal who just came from PPG season with decent 30-goals scoring winger Sykora (who just came from the best offensive line in NHL), gets free pass again.
Fedorov just came off a PPG season also. The difference is that Fedorov wasn't playing with an 81-point Paul Kariya.

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Come on! How do you explain 1998 season, when Selanne won Richard, was TOP10 in scoring and played on team where third best player on team got 36 points, while Kariya was injured for almost whole season???? That's Bure-esque (Florida) level of play!
And Bure was not as good as Fedorov. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that.

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Why team composition didn't matter when Fedorov played in Detroit stacked with HOFers, while Selanne played in freakin' Mickey Mouse team where except for Kariya played garbage of other teams?
When positions are swaped, miraculously Fedorov can't produce and it's all okey. On the other hand when Selanne was in Fedorov position on Olympic Line, his production didn't change and it didn't change when Kariya was out of roster and he had to play with Rucchin at the best.
Selanne's linemates without Kariya were still better than Fedorov's. And Selanne wasn't the guy expected to do the primary defensive work; Rucchin was.

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Selanne produced excellent offensive output no matter of his team and teammates, can't say that about Fedorov.
Yep, his performance in Colorado is something to be remembered.

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03-17-2013, 11:02 AM
  #372
87center
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Yeah, but there's a lot of kind of strange stuff said on that list. It's not that Amonte is ranked in front of Bure at that point in time, it's this...



Not only that. Take a look at his all time top 100 player list. He has 23 year old Sidney Crosby ranked in the top 25. Dude loses all credibility. Sad, because his 1997 and 1998 position rankings are actually very good.

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03-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #373
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I just wonder how things would have worked out had they kept Fedorov instead of trading him in 2005. Fedorov, Selanne, and Niedermayer would have been a pretty killer combo.
in an ideal world, that would have been awesome, especially if they still picked up pronger the next year (not likely, due to fedorov's $6 million salary).

but while we can defend fedorov's offensive coasting in detroit, i think anaheim fedorov is indefensible, no matter how we qualify the quality of his teammates/linemates. i imagine that a younger, motivated fedorov would have been an excellent MVP type guy on a weak team, carrying them on his back. but an older fedorov was lazy and, like messier in vancouver, the team got better without him there, even though he was putting up passable points (for the era).

but yeah, a 34/36 year old fedorov had a lot more to give than he did, and if he'd been motivated, for sure fedorov, niedermayer, and a resurgent selanne would have been a treat to watch.

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03-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So you're saying that that 10-15 points is on top of an average defensive forward, or the worst defensive forward in the league?

How about this:

1993-94 Fedorov against Gretzky? How much is Fedorov's defense worth, and how much is Gretzky's defense worth? You are clearly valuing offense more than the PHWA does, or at least did in 1993-94.

In 1999-00, Sakic scored 81 points to Yzerman's 79, despite Sakic missing 22 games and Yzerman missing only 4. Both were top-ten scorers and PPG+. Yzerman won the Selke and was the first-team center, while Mike Modano (77GP, 38 goals, 81 points) went to the second-team. Jeremy Roenick (75GP, 78 points) was the only other center to receive any first-place votes (3), and all three of the others beat him based on their first-place votes alone. With all of them so close together, Yzerman seems the obvious choice as the Selke winner. But with Sakic having missed so many games, he's effectively scoring at a pace 30 points higher. He'd basically have to have gone from a 1.35 PPG player to a 0.59 PPG player (or less) for your "point value" to be accurate. And it's not as if he gets marked down much for being unproven; he has scored nearly 120 in the past, over 100 many times, and he tied Modano for first among centers in points.

Yet Yzerman, the Selke-winning defensive forward version, is the player who is named to the first-team.
Yzerman was named to the first team because Sakic missed 22 games, had sakic played the full season he would have ran away with it.

Does Yzerman's defensive value in 2000 make him better than Jagr and Bure, come one keep overrating the defensive impact of detriot players and then claim the defense of gilmour, modano, brind amour and francis is overrated, like you dont have a bias towards detriot players, lol. Was Yzerman better than Bure and Jagr in 2000?

Ovechkin in 2008 outscored datsyuk by only 15 points and this forum and the hockey media in general unanimously considered him the better player that year. You can make any BS excuse like datsyuk's teammates prevented him from garnering hart votes, or any other made up nostalgia. In 2008 and 2009 Ovy and Malkin were seen as the best, not datsyuk.

Like why dont you show some advanced defennsive statistics of Fedorov and compare that to the defensive impact an actual shutdown defenseman brings to the table? Yeah then that will bury your argument of fed's defense being so crucial that it makes up for even more than 15 points.

2003 wasnt too long ago. Nobody was saying Fedorov had a better year than Thornton and Naslund, no matter how much nostalgia you want to bring up. In 1992, Nobody was saying Fedorov was better than Messier. In 1995 and 1996, nobody was saying Fedorov was the 2nd best player in the league, he considered borderline top 5. Your own made up revionism of how much impact his defense makes wont cut it. I remember 2003 like it was yesterday, noboody was saying fedorov was the 2nd best player after forsberg.

If Fedorov's defense has so much value, why dont you go ahead and rank him next to Sakic on the all time lists?


Last edited by ushvinder: 03-17-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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03-17-2013, 03:45 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Datsyuk was named to the 2nd All-Star team over Crosby in 2009 and was a Hart finalist. So it seems he was in the conversation with Malkin and Ovechkin.
Yeah but according to Eva's arguments, Datsyuk should have ran away with the hart. The season was just 4 years ago, I dont recall the media claiming pavel as the best.

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