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2013 Leafs Trades/Proposals/Signings X - Steckel traded, next on the docket...

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Old
03-17-2013, 08:19 AM
  #26
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No star center and Phaneuff isn't a number one dman.My suggestion since Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner : Weber for Phaneuff ,Gardiner plus ? Grabo for Statsny. The only way we get a number one center is gamble.
i think MLSE has decided kessel isnt their 8 million dollar guy ..i look for phil the thrill to anaheim ,sj ,
just a hunch but im not sure nonis is calling all the shots ..im thinkin we are going to be introduced to a new head of hockey operations very soon ,,,

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03-17-2013, 08:19 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
No star center and Phaneuff isn't a number one dman.My suggestion since Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner : Weber for Phaneuff ,Gardiner plus ? Grabo for Statsny. The only way we get a number one center is gamble.
We don't need a star center....we need a number 1 center. Big difference. Where is the prove that Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner?

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03-17-2013, 08:34 AM
  #28
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No star center and Phaneuff isn't a number one dman.My suggestion since Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner : Weber for Phaneuff ,Gardiner plus ? Grabo for Statsny. The only way we get a number one center is gamble.

Are you serious? Didn't I just finish telling you that the Carlyle-Gardiner thing is only being perpetuated by people like you and there's no further truth to it?

Weber can't be traded now, and the Avs won't trade Grabo for Stas. We don't have to gamble on anything, we just have to be smart about using certain assets and not others. Here's the way it shakes out:

We don't touch any of our top-90 picks or any of our top-end prospects. We make hockey deals with teams looking to add quality players. We have some top-6 and some bottom-6 players available.

Top6/4: Mac, Kule, Bozak, Gunnar, Macarthur
Bottom6/4: Liles, Holzer, Kostka, Connolly

Players available for the right deal: Kessel, Colborne, Ashton


There's a lot to work with there. I think Gunnar should be reserved to bring us a top-4 capable D, as it's likely the team will need a D back. Dependent on the needs of said team, we may also offer top-6 depth at either the left or right side, down the middle, or further bottom-pairing blueline depth. Dreger seems to think we are already going down this path, which makes total sense to me.

Deals from our end could look something like Gunnar, Kostka or Holzer, and Kulemin. If said player or players demand more, Kostka could be upgraded to Liles, Colborne or Ashton included. This would target a top-4 D.

Remaining, we would have Bozak, Connolly, Macarthur, and one or two of Kostka, Holzer or Liles.

A second package could be constructed targeting either a wingman or a centre, in either Bozak or Macarthur, plus one of the depth D in Kostka or Holzer, plus a prospect in Colborne or Ashton. This would target a top-6 centre to play the next 2-3 years while our drafted #1C develops.

If during these or other negotiations players like Dion or Kessel are discussed, while they aren't on the table you'd have to think Nonis would listen to offers. However at the least, the two trades would target a top-4 D and either a top-6 PWF or centre. Whatever we have leftover after our deals we trade for picks. This leaves our core intact: Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner, Dion (iffy), Franson, Fraser. Because we aren't touching our core, you can consider these deals to be 'safe' ie. they don't risk anything because we don't give assets away that might come back to haunt us. Colborne being the exception there, but I don't think anyone has him pencilled in as a #1C in the next few years anyway.

That's how I see this all shaking out.

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03-17-2013, 08:59 AM
  #29
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Also an interesting side-note, Holzer is tied for 4th last/worst in plus/minus IN THE LEAGUE... here is the bottom 10:

252 Travis Hamonic NYI D 28 2 6 8 -11
253 Braydon Coburn PHI D 29 1 4 5 -11
254 Filip Kuba FLA D 27 1 3 4 -11
255 Bruno Gervais PHI D 26 1 2 3 -11
256 Scott Hannan NSH D 28 0 1 1 -11
257 Andrew MacDonald NYI D 28 1 6 7 -12
258 Nick Schultz EDM D 27 0 3 3 -12
259 Korbinian Holzer TOR D 22 2 1 3 -12
260 Brian Lee TBL D 22 0 0 0 -13
261 Erik Gudbranson FLA D 20 0 4 4 -17
262 Brian Campbell FLA D 29 6 11 17 -20


See any playoff teams there?

Also in giveaways/takeaways, Holzer leads our team in the worst give/take ratio at 5 to 1, followed by Dion at 4.71 to 1. Interestingly, when I pulled the top-30 defemsemen in the league with the most giveaways, and pulled their give/takeaway ratio, Dion ranked 5th worst:

Pos GP Hits BkS MsS GvA TkA
23 Jakub Kindl DET D 22 29 20 14 20 2
26 Sheldon Soura ANA D 26 22 36 18 20 3
12 Rob Scuderi LAK D 27 15 29 10 24 4
20 Dougie Hamilton BOS D 26 35 21 11 21 4
2 Dion Phaneuf TOR D 29 83 48 26 33 7
27 Slava Voynov LAK D 27 53 24 22 20 5
15 Marc-Edouard Vlasic SJS D 27 13 46 17 23 6
28 Jay Bouwmeester CGY D 26 26 39 23 19 5
29 Zdeno Chara BOS D 26 63 39 27 19 5
3 Kris Letang PIT D 26 33 47 29 32 9
17 Dan Boyle SJS D 25 20 34 34 21 6

Only Kris Letang has a similar stat line, funny enough. But when you have 28 pts in 26 games and you are a +12, people tend to be more forgiving.

We also have 3 defensemen in the top-20 of all D in the league in giveaways in Kostka, Dion and Franson. If you want to know who's tops in takeaways here are the top-5:

1. Justin Faulk (20)
2. Mark Giordano (19)
3. Andy Greene (19)
4. Jeff Petry (19)
5. Dustin Buf (17)


The case is so blatantly overwhelming that our blueline is porous... if Nonis/Carlyle doesn't at least shift Holzer out in favour of Komi or Gardiner that's a huge red flag at this point.

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:00 AM
  #30
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Buffalo Sabres looking to make moves prior to NHL trade deadline

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/03/16/...trade-deadline

Quote:
Sources say the Sabres aren't going to move high-scoring winger Thomas Vanek or top prospects Marcus Foligno, Cody Hodgson or Alexander Sulzer. Nobody would take Tyler Myers' contract, but every player is up for discussion.
Quote:
RUMOURS DU JOUR: Doug Wilson has been busy working the phones. The San Jose Sharks GM isn't pleased with the club's inconsistency and he's open to all options. The club's UFA's -- LW Ryane Clowe, C Michael Handzus and D Douglas Murray -- are available and sources say Wilson "is in full panic mode." Murray is being "shopped hard" but one team backed off because of concerns about his conditioning. League executives believe Wilson is frustrated but he often stirs up discussions then doesn't deal. The Habs, Bruins and Penguins have interest in Clowe ... Three names to watch in Winnipeg because they're on the trade radar: LW Evander Kane, D Ron Hainsey and C Alexander Burmistov. The Jets aren't planning to deal D Dustin Byfuglien, but they are getting calls from teams interested. They know that can't move Byfuglien because the Jets wouldn't be the same without him. ... Habs GM Marc Bergevin is considering more moves. The Habs have been looking for a veteran defenceman for the run to the post-season and have an interest in Buffalo D Robin Regehr. We're also hearing whispers captain Brian Gionta may be moved in the off-season ... Dallas could be a deadline hotspot: The Stars may move C Derek Roy and LW Brendan Morrow. The Bruins are a good landing spot for Morrow. The two teams have been scouting each other heavily.

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:24 AM
  #31
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Rumours lose all credibility when they say " no one would take Myers". Buffalo just gave him a 10 mill signing bonus, there's no way they trade him now, and if they did I would hope the Leafs would be first in line with a big offer.

Sure he's been inconsistent, but he's young and exactly what the Leafs need.

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03-17-2013, 09:25 AM
  #32
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A really big pickup for the Leafs would be Kipper. Lots of Leafs fans might be happy with the current goaltending but I have watched a lot of Kipper and even when his numbers are avg he really is the only reason the Flames stay competitive. They have left him out to dry so many times over the last 4-5 yrs but be bails them out plenty.

He would guarantee a playoff spot for the Leafs and with him in goal he gives them a chance for upsets in the playoffs.

By the way - I hate the Flames......my most hated team but I admire Kipper and respect his ability. The Leafs have ripped off the Flames many times before....why not one more time

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03-17-2013, 09:29 AM
  #33
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The Leafs are in no position to move significant futures for a aging goaltender.

We need a hockey trade. Not a rental, unless it comes cheap.

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03-17-2013, 09:34 AM
  #34
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I'd love to see Douglas Murray, but I'm sure if their shopping him he has really dropped off. Don't see too many Sharks games.

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03-17-2013, 09:35 AM
  #35
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If the Sharks want a shake-up how about something around Kessel for Burns.

They're playing Burns as a forward now anyway.

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03-17-2013, 09:40 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
No star center and Phaneuff isn't a number one dman.My suggestion since Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner : Weber for Phaneuff ,Gardiner plus ? Grabo for Statsny. The only way we get a number one center is gamble.
I agree with these both. That said, the more I see of Phaneuf game the more he looks like he doesn't belong on the top pair. He has gone through tons of defensemen in his career and just never looks good.
- Regeher on the flames who is a quality shutdown defender
- Beauchimen on the leafs another very good top pairing shutdown defender
- AHLers du jour (Aulie, Kostka, Holzer) were disaster
- Average NHL defenders (Gunnar, Komisarek and Schenn) who phaneuf never could carry in the top pair.

Why - well because Phaneuf and his 6.5M needs a team mate that carries him. He is not good enough to be the go to guy on leaf defence. The two things that are consistent in the above examples are Phaneuf and bad defense. At some point it is right to ask the question if Phaneuf is the problem with that first pair.


BTW Schenn look good on the flyers this year (with Timmo), Beauchi is incredible with the ducks and Souray. But Phaneuf managed to make every team mate he has played with look awful. And so much so the leafs traded good players away (Beauchimen and Schenn) just to hold onto a broken defender in Phanuef. Phaneuf is not the type of player that makes his team mates look better. Instead Phaneuf needs a quality defender (better then Beachimen) to make him look like a #1D. Put together a list of defencemen better then Beauchmen and that is the type of player that the 6.5M Phaneuf needs just so we can call him a #1D. This guy is inconsistent - great one game and terrible the next and is a big part of the reason why the leafs will continue to struggle.

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03-17-2013, 09:46 AM
  #37
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I'd take Handzus and Murray from the Sharks. Both would help us and are more realistic then the Joes or Couture.

they also fit to a T what TSN says Nonis is shopping for (size down the middle and vet top 3 dman)

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03-17-2013, 09:47 AM
  #38
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I'd love to see Douglas Murray, but I'm sure if their shopping him he has really dropped off. Don't see too many Sharks games.
Buyer beware. I've seen 4 or 5 SJ games this year... he looks a step behind, his footspeed is poor. He would be a decent pickup as a bottom pairing or depth D in a stretch run, but he's not having a good year this year and it remains to be seen if it's anomalous or the start of a decline.

Big boys like him typically have a harder time playing later into their 30s.

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03-17-2013, 09:48 AM
  #39
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I agree with these both. That said, the more I see of Phaneuf game the more he looks like he doesn't belong on the top pair. He has gone through tons of defensemen in his career and just never looks good.
- Regeher on the flames who is a quality shutdown defender
- Beauchimen on the leafs another very good top pairing shutdown defender
- AHLers du jour (Aulie, Kostka, Holzer) were disaster
- Average NHL defenders (Gunnar, Komisarek and Schenn) who phaneuf never could carry in the top pair.

Why - well because Phaneuf and his 6.5M needs a team mate that carries him. He is not good enough to be the go to guy on leaf defence. The two things that are consistent in the above examples are Phaneuf and bad defense. At some point it is right to ask the question if Phaneuf is the problem with that first pair.


BTW Schenn look good on the flyers this year (with Timmo), Beauchi is incredible with the ducks and Souray. But Phaneuf managed to make every team mate he has played with look awful. And so much so the leafs traded good players away (Beauchimen and Schenn) just to hold onto a broken defender in Phanuef. Phaneuf is not the type of player that makes his team mates look better. Instead Phaneuf needs a quality defender (better then Beachimen) to make him look like a #1D. Put together a list of defencemen better then Beauchmen and that is the type of player that the 6.5M Phaneuf needs just so we can call him a #1D. This guy is inconsistent - great one game and terrible the next and is a big part of the reason why the leafs will continue to struggle.
His skating and decision making are not top pairing quality.

His contract does not match what he really is and thats a 2nd pairing PP specialist. He does have some skills, we are just not able to put him in a optimum role on the team.

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03-17-2013, 09:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
I'd take Handzus and Murray from the Sharks. Both would help us and are more realistic then the Joes or Couture.

they also fit to a T what TSN says Nonis is shopping for (size down the middle and vet top 3 dman)
Again, Handzus would just not bring anything to our club. We did just trade Steckel, didn't we? Handzus is a poor target, and I suspect Murray is as well. The reason why Joes or Couture are more desirable is because they would actually improve our club, greatly.

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03-17-2013, 09:51 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Buyer beware. I've seen 4 or 5 SJ games this year... he looks a step behind, his footspeed is poor. He would be a decent pickup as a bottom pairing or depth D in a stretch run, but he's not having a good year this year and it remains to be seen if it's anomalous or the start of a decline.

Big boys like him typically have a harder time playing later into their 30s.
Would you not say we have more then enough depth bottom pairing already?

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03-17-2013, 09:52 AM
  #42
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Would you not say we have more then enough depth bottom pairing already?
Yes, of course - sorry for not clarifying. I meant he'd be a decent depth pickup to another team - not ours. He is redundant to us.

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03-17-2013, 09:52 AM
  #43
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I agree with these both. That said, the more I see of Phaneuf game the more he looks like he doesn't belong on the top pair. He has gone through tons of defensemen in his career and just never looks good.
- Regeher on the flames who is a quality shutdown defender
- Beauchimen on the leafs another very good top pairing shutdown defender
- AHLers du jour (Aulie, Kostka, Holzer) were disaster
- Average NHL defenders (Gunnar, Komisarek and Schenn) who phaneuf never could carry in the top pair.

Why - well because Phaneuf and his 6.5M needs a team mate that carries him. He is not good enough to be the go to guy on leaf defence. The two things that are consistent in the above examples are Phaneuf and bad defense. At some point it is right to ask the question if Phaneuf is the problem with that first pair.


BTW Schenn look good on the flyers this year (with Timmo), Beauchi is incredible with the ducks and Souray. But Phaneuf managed to make every team mate he has played with look awful. And so much so the leafs traded good players away (Beauchimen and Schenn) just to hold onto a broken defender in Phanuef. Phaneuf is not the type of player that makes his team mates look better. Instead Phaneuf needs a quality defender (better then Beachimen) to make him look like a #1D. Put together a list of defencemen better then Beauchmen and that is the type of player that the 6.5M Phaneuf needs just so we can call him a #1D. This guy is inconsistent - great one game and terrible the next and is a big part of the reason why the leafs will continue to struggle.
Schenn never played with Phaneuf

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03-17-2013, 09:54 AM
  #44
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If the Sharks want a shake-up how about something around Kessel for Burns.

They're playing Burns as a forward now anyway.
straight up... NO way!

I would listen to something like:

TOR: Burns + Havlat + 1st
SJ: Kessel + Gunnarsson + Kulemin

bring up Gardiner in place of Gunnarsson, Havlat in place of Kessel, Burns instead of Holzer.

Havlat - Bozak - Lupul
JVR - Kadri - Frattin
MacA - Grabo - Komarov
McLaren - McClement -Orr

Phanuef - Burns
Gardiner - Holzer/Kostka
Fraser - Franson


Last edited by Rockinz: 03-17-2013 at 10:05 AM.
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03-17-2013, 09:55 AM
  #45
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Again, Handzus would just not bring anything to our club. We did just trade Steckel, didn't we? Handzus is a poor target, and I suspect Murray is as well. The reason why Joes or Couture are more desirable is because they would actually improve our club, greatly.
I know why they're more desirable, its just that we're going to have to pay significant assets to get them, if they're even available. SJ is on the decline, they're not trading Couture except for ridiculous overpayment. The Joes would command assets like Rielly, Kadri, our 1st. Are you willing to pay that for a Thornton, a player on decline, or Pavs, a guy whos never quite proven hes top line material?

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03-17-2013, 09:58 AM
  #46
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Schenn never played with Phaneuf
Yes. Wilson tried them together a few games but not long term.

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03-17-2013, 10:03 AM
  #47
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straight up... NO way!

I would listen to something like:

TOR: Burns + Havlat + 1st
SJ: Kessel + Gunnarsson + Kulemin
Naw, that 1st will be late, Havlat is garbage.

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03-17-2013, 10:04 AM
  #48
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I know why they're more desirable, its just that we're going to have to pay significant assets to get them, if they're even available. SJ is on the decline, they're not trading Couture except for ridiculous overpayment. The Joes would command assets like Rielly, Kadri, our 1st. Are you willing to pay that for a Thornton, a player on decline, or Pavs, a guy whos never quite proven hes top line material?
But here's the thing.... we can't get what we need on the team without giving assets, and we definitely need something. As I said in a long-winded post earlier, we should not be using our top-90 picks and top prospects in deals. We have enough non-core or low-risk assets to move to acquire what we need - we just need to man-up and make a freakin deal.

San Jose does not make a good trade partner unless they're willing to part with Burnsie.

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03-17-2013, 10:09 AM
  #49
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I'd take Handzus and Murray from the Sharks. Both would help us and are more realistic then the Joes or Couture.

they also fit to a T what TSN says Nonis is shopping for (size down the middle and vet top 3 dman)
Murray doesn't interest me at all.

At this point I'm not even sure he's an upgrade at what we have.

We've got a logjam at D and Murray wouldn't be retained after this year so it doesn't make sense to give up long term assets like picks/prospects for him.

If our young D in Holzer, Gardiner, Franson, Fraser are going to be on the big club they need to play minutes to improve and Murray would take away from that.

Although heading down the stretch I could see Carlyle slotting the veteran Komisarek back in because Holzer looks like he could benefit from watching from the pressbox for just a few games. Carlyle has already been forced to go back to playing Liles the last 2 games and giving him a lot of minutes.

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03-17-2013, 10:11 AM
  #50
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Murray doesn't interest me at all.

At this point I'm not even sure he's an upgrade at what we have.

We've got a logjam at D and Murray wouldn't be retained after this year so it doesn't make sense to give up long term assets like picks/prospects for him.

If our young D in Holzer, Gardiner, Franson, Fraser are going to be on the big club they need to play minutes to improve and Murray would take away from that.

Although heading down the stretch I could see Carlyle slotting the veteran Komisarek back in because Holzer looks like he could benefit from watching from the pressbox for just a few games. Carlyle has already been forced to go back to playing Liles the last 2 games and giving him a lot of minutes.
You are correct - he is not. And we just traded Handzus to Anaheim for a 7th. Agree with Komi - if it's not Gardiner that gets the call them Komi has to slot in place of Holzer. Holzer is really playing poorly.

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