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03-11-2013, 07:00 PM
  #301
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While I'm ok with whateverhappens with Gravel, I disagree with him being placed in every situation and thriving. He's not a jack of all trades like Forbort, he's a defensive specialist at heart. I think he could have an offensive element to his game, something I mentioned earlier, but I don't see it developing at the college level. I think he's ready for the rigors of afull AL season, and would benefit from that more.

But as I sad, I really am ok with whatever happens

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03-11-2013, 07:37 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
While I'm ok with whateverhappens with Gravel, I disagree with him being placed in every situation and thriving. He's not a jack of all trades like Forbort, he's a defensive specialist at heart. I think he could have an offensive element to his game, something I mentioned earlier, but I don't see it developing at the college level. I think he's ready for the rigors of afull AL season, and would benefit from that more.

But as I sad, I really am ok with whatever happens
I agree with you that KG isn't a PMD type and is way more of a stay at home Dman by his style but I took the thriving in every situation to mean that he is thriving at every situation that he is put in which typically doesn't involve an expectation for providing offencive support (or more so than anyone else).

I would like to see him get his chance to lead his teams D for a full season and gain all of the experience that goes along with doing that which I think would be a great bit of experience for any young player, that sort o thing.

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03-12-2013, 09:40 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I agree with you that KG isn't a PMD type and is way more of a stay at home Dman by his style but I took the thriving in every situation to mean that he is thriving at every situation that he is put in which typically doesn't involve an expectation for providing offencive support (or more so than anyone else).
But isn't he doing that already? You likely see him more than I, but from what I have gleaned, he seems to be the go to guy already.

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03-12-2013, 01:44 PM
  #304
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But isn't he doing that already? You likely see him more than I, but from what I have gleaned, he seems to be the go to guy already.
He is but in the NCAA scheme of things he isn't a senior and there is thought that he will captain the team and there are people who think that StC might be a very good team next year.

Its all arguable and I do think that Gravel is an exceptional talent who could be ready today but since we have the time I would leave him where he is as opposed to bringing him to the AHL. It is a tough call though. The reason we are seeing so much success from the kids who go through our system is the fact that they have gone through our system (I know).

Our castaways are succeeding because of our best in the game developmental system/group so getting KG into it is a great thing and typically would be my focus. In KG's case I suppose I would say that if WM comes back (I truly believe it is a matter of when and have heard he might be back in the next couple of weeks but nothing solid) then we should let him continue his current developmental path and if WM can't make it back then we might be better served to bring KG in and get him started learning our system.

If WM comes back then we can afford to let KG finish his time developing in StC and he will be ready to step right in, do a season in Manchester and then replace WM when his contract runs out. (high praise and of course not right away but I believe that KG will develop into a similar type of player)

Ultimately I like the idea whenever possible of letting kids finish each level of their development as it exists. Finish jr's/NCAA/SEL etc and move up to the AHL. Go from AHL to NHL sort of thing. Of course talent and need can change things but most of the time if you can afford to let them progress naturally you get better results from prospects when you let them move through the system in their own time.

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03-12-2013, 01:54 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
He is but in the NCAA scheme of things he isn't a senior and there is thought that he will captain the team and there are people who think that StC might be a very good team next year.

Its all arguable and I do think that Gravel is an exceptional talent who could be ready today but since we have the time I would leave him where he is as opposed to bringing him to the AHL. It is a tough call though. The reason we are seeing so much success from the kids who go through our system is the fact that they have gone through our system (I know).

Our castaways are succeeding because of our best in the game developmental system/group so getting KG into it is a great thing and typically would be my focus. In KG's case I suppose I would say that if WM comes back (I truly believe it is a matter of when and have heard he might be back in the next couple of weeks but nothing solid) then we should let him continue his current developmental path and if WM can't make it back then we might be better served to bring KG in and get him started learning our system.

If WM comes back then we can afford to let KG finish his time developing in StC and he will be ready to step right in, do a season in Manchester and then replace WM when his contract runs out. (high praise and of course not right away but I believe that KG will develop into a similar type of player)

Ultimately I like the idea whenever possible of letting kids finish each level of their development as it exists. Finish jr's/NCAA/SEL etc and move up to the AHL. Go from AHL to NHL sort of thing. Of course talent and need can change things but most of the time if you can afford to let them progress naturally you get better results from prospects when you let them move through the system in their own time.
Generally speaking I agree with your idea on how progression should go for a player, in terms of letting him move on at the end of his eligibility. I may disagree in Gravel's case, but as I said, it's more a matter of preference than doing him any real harm. Gravel will get better no matter where he plays, that's just how I see him. He's such a heady player, he'd develop playing PeeWee right now.

As for Mitchell, your time line is off (unless you know/think Mitchell gets an extension). If Gravel were to return to StC next year and then spend one year in Manchester, he'd be in the NHL in 2015-2016. Mitchell's current contract expires after the 2013-2014 season.

Btw, go mention in the Mitchell thread that he'll be back and ready in a few weeks possibly. That'd cause a wildfire

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03-15-2013, 05:57 PM
  #306
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Just thought some fans here would be interested in The Hockey News Future Watch rankings of the Kings top ten prospects

1. Toffoli
2. Forbort
3. Pearson
4. Gravel
5. Muzzin
6. Shore
7. Vey
8. Andreoff
9. Jones
10. Miller

Sorry if this has already been posted

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03-16-2013, 01:16 AM
  #307
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Colin Miller was voted in the coach's poll as Most Underrated Player in the Western Conference.

http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/a...es-poll/140639

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03-16-2013, 02:13 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northernKing View Post
Just thought some fans here would be interested in The Hockey News Future Watch rankings of the Kings top ten prospects

1. Toffoli
2. Forbort
3. Pearson
4. Gravel
5. Muzzin
6. Shore
7. Vey
8. Andreoff
9. Jones
10. Miller

Sorry if this has already been posted
Just to add to this, the Future Watch lists one player from each teams prospects ranked 6-10 that they felt is a sleeper (IE has a chance to break out as a star). For the Kings, they picked Vey.

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03-17-2013, 12:19 PM
  #309
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Why is it that we have so many dman prospects, but yet so few forwards? Shouldn't it be the other way around seeing that there are 12 forwards slots compare to only 6 for dmen? I really hope DL & company focus on forwards for the next couple of years.

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03-17-2013, 01:08 PM
  #310
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Why is it that we have so many dman prospects, but yet so few forwards? Shouldn't it be the other way around seeing that there are 12 forwards slots compare to only 6 for dmen? I really hope DL & company focus on forwards for the next couple of years.
I think a few points.

Firstly, when some of those guys were picked, we didn't have the core we have now. Some of those guys in our top 10 were drafted before Muzzin, A-Mart and Voynov even played an NHL game, so we knew we had Doughty and after that a lot of question marks. Now we have three very good young guys that are locks (Doughty, A-Mart and Voynov) and at least one other (Muzzin) who could become a lock.

Secondly, while there is 12 forward slots, it's easier to fill in depth spots through free agency for forwards than D-men. If you need to upgrade your 3rd line, it's easier to go into free agency and add a depth guy for a decent salary, than it is to add a 2nd/3rd pairing guy in UFA. See Scuderi and Mitchell, who cost us a combined $6.9 million in UFA. You can likely purchase an entire 3rd line in UFA for that. Not saying Scuds and Mitchell weren't good additions, but we also got a bit of a discount on Mitchell due to his concussion concerns.

Thirdly, you just have to pick the best player available, especially in the later rounds. If you think that's a D-man, take him. Judging by how our defensive picks have played out, especially those outside the first round, I'm fine with continuing to draft defensemen.

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03-17-2013, 01:10 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Why is it that we have so many dman prospects, but yet so few forwards? Shouldn't it be the other way around seeing that there are 12 forwards slots compare to only 6 for dmen? I really hope DL & company focus on forwards for the next couple of years.
How do you come to this conclusion ?

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03-17-2013, 01:33 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
How do you come to this conclusion ?
Forbort
Gravel
Roach
Miller
Delaurier
Campbell

Vey
Toffoli
Pearson
Kozun
Shore
Dowd
Lowry
Kitsyn

We seem to be pretty good at developing on defense, but when was the last time Lombardi developed a top end forward?

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03-17-2013, 01:55 PM
  #313
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Simmonds?

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03-17-2013, 02:13 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Forbort
Gravel
Roach
Miller
Delaurier
Campbell

Vey
Toffoli
Pearson
Kozun
Shore
Dowd
Lowry
Kitsyn

We seem to be pretty good at developing on defense, but when was the last time Lombardi developed a top end forward?
Never, but when did he develop a top end defenseman then (aside from an obvious #2 overall pick) ?

Why is he pretty good at developing on defense ?

You list a bunch of defensive prospects and a bunch of forward prospects. I fail to see your point.

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03-17-2013, 02:29 PM
  #315
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Simmonds?
Don't know if you were being sarcastic or not but Simmonds was primarily a 3rd liner until he became a flyer, so, I don't think he counts.

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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Never, but when did he develop a top end defenseman then (aside from an obvious #2 overall pick) ?

Why is he pretty good at developing on defense ?

You list a bunch of defensive prospects and a bunch of forward prospects. I fail to see your point.
I was trying to show that we have almost as many dmen prospects as we do fowards.

Having said that, my concern is when will Lombardi actually develop a top end forward like Taylor did with Kopi and Brownie? He seems to be more focused in goalies and dmen than he is with forwards. Hopefully Toffoli can fill the bill or maybe Pearson, but we really don't have a high end forward prospects.

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03-17-2013, 02:36 PM
  #316
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Don't know if you were being sarcastic or not but Simmonds was primarily a 3rd liner until he became a flyer, so, I don't think he counts.

Not sure if your being sarcastic....Simmonds clearly became the player he became because of the time spent with the Kings not because the the 3 weeks of training camp he had with Philly...

Hell I might even add Moulson to the list.

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03-17-2013, 02:44 PM
  #317
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Not sure if your being sarcastic....Simmonds clearly became the player he became because of the time spent with the Kings not because the the 3 weeks of training camp he had with Philly...

Hell I might even add Moulson to the list.
What I'm saying is, Simmonds would still be our 3RW on the kings with JW and JC ahead of him. I would like to see DL put more focus on developing a top notch forward for the kings. Simmonds is no longer a king nor was he ever considered a top notch player while here with the kings.

Guys like Moulson don't count. For one, he was a DT pick not DL. Second, he much like Purcell, never got much of an opportunity.

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03-17-2013, 02:48 PM
  #318
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I was trying to show that we have almost as many dmen prospects as we do fowards.
I see, well now its more clear.

That being said, I only see Forbert, Gravel, Roach, Miller, Delauriers and Ladue as potential Kings on the blueline.

Forwards; Vey, Pearson, Prokhorkin, Mersch, Shore, Kozun, Hyka, Andreoff, Weal and Toffoli.

So than IMO it still doesnt make sense.

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03-17-2013, 03:03 PM
  #319
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Having said that, my concern is when will Lombardi actually develop a top end forward like Taylor did with Kopi and Brownie? He seems to be more focused in goalies and dmen than he is with forwards. Hopefully Toffoli can fill the bill or maybe Pearson, but we really don't have a high end forward prospects.
This is the part of things that people don't look at. What makes anyone think DT did anything to develop Kopitar? I don't think Kopitar even met DT outside of the 2005 Entry Draft and maybe a prospects camp. Brown meanwhile DT threw into the fire at 18 when he clearly wasn't ready for the NHL. He was more likely to ruin the kid with that move. I think the lockout had as much to do with Brown as anything, since it forced the Kings to play him in the minors and not the NHL.

Lombardi had as much, if not more, to do with Kopitar's development than anyone, including DT. Drafting a guy doesn't mean you developed him.

Secondly, it took seven drafts for DT to hit on Brown. And 9 to get Kopitar. DL's seventh draft is coming up this year. Dt drafted a few impact guys, like Jokinen, Frolov and Camalleri, but he struck out a lot too. DL took Simmonds and Schenn, who are both doing very well this year, and has Toffoli looking pretty good so far. Give DL as much time as DT had and then compare.

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What I'm saying is, Simmonds would still be our 3RW on the kings with JW and JC ahead of him. I would like to see DL put more focus on developing a top notch forward for the kings. Simmonds is no longer a king nor was he ever considered a top notch player while here with the kings.

Guys like Moulson don't count. For one, he was a DT pick not DL. Second, he much like Purcell, never got much of an opportunity.
It's pure speculation to assert Simmonds would be our 3rd line guy. There's no proof of that. Keep in mind that he was 3rd line under Murray, and there's no guarantee Simmonds wouldn't have been given an increased role under Sutter. Secondly, if we don't trade for Richards (which we wouldn't have I assume if Simmonds was still here) who says we'd have got Carter? Thirdly, at this point I'd put Simmonds ahead of Williams. Williams would look better on the third line than Simmonds.

As for Moulson and Purcell, they were both given plenty of chances in LA. Moulson got 29 games, Purcell got 91. How much time do you expect a player to get to show what they can do? Plenty of first rounders don't get that kind of time to show what they can do in their careers, why should 9th rounders (or college UFA's) get more time?

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03-17-2013, 03:15 PM
  #320
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This is the part of things that people don't look at. What makes anyone think DT did anything to develop Kopitar? I don't think Kopitar even met DT outside of the 2005 Entry Draft and maybe a prospects camp. Brown meanwhile DT threw into the fire at 18 when he clearly wasn't ready for the NHL. He was more likely to ruin the kid with that move. I think the lockout had as much to do with Brown as anything, since it forced the Kings to play him in the minors and not the NHL.

Lombardi had as much, if not more, to do with Kopitar's development than anyone, including DT. Drafting a guy doesn't mean you developed him.

Secondly, it took seven drafts for DT to hit on Brown. And 9 to get Kopitar. DL's seventh draft is coming up this year. Dt drafted a few impact guys, like Jokinen, Frolov and Camalleri, but he struck out a lot too. DL took Simmonds and Schenn, who are both doing very well this year, and has Toffoli looking pretty good so far. Give DL as much time as DT had and then compare.
Wrong choice of words. Instead of develop I should have said drafted I would just like to see DL focus more on picking forwards than dmen and goalies, that's all. I'm still bitter about picking Forbort over Etem.



Quote:
It's pure speculation to assert Simmonds would be our 3rd line guy. There's no proof of that. Keep in mind that he was 3rd line under Murray, and there's no guarantee Simmonds wouldn't have been given an increased role under Sutter. Secondly, if we don't trade for Richards (which we wouldn't have I assume if Simmonds was still here) who says we'd have got Carter? Thirdly, at this point I'd put Simmonds ahead of Williams. Williams would look better on the third line than Simmonds.
All I'm talking about is Lombardi drafting a forward that can play for the kings on the first line. And as of now, he has yet to do that.

Quote:
As for Moulson and Purcell, they were both given plenty of chances in LA. Moulson got 29 games, Purcell got 91. How much time do you expect a player to get to show what they can do? Plenty of first rounders don't get that kind of time to show what they can do in their careers, why should 9th rounders (or college UFA's) get more time?
Purcell may have gotten 91 games but good 80 games were as a LW. I kept insisting that he needs to play RW but unfortunately we had Brownie, JW and Simmonds all ahead of him. Of course, he goes to the bolts and is putting up good numbers playing his natural position of RW. And in the few games he did play RW with the kings, it was on the 4th line with Harrold and Raitis. And believe it or not, I'm not blaming DL or TM because bottom line is, there just wasn't a spot for Purcell.

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03-17-2013, 03:16 PM
  #321
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I don't understand the remark that DL has more defensemen than forwards, then when it's proven wrong, it becomes a debate about TOP line forwards.

Goaltending and defense take longer to develop. Then it's strength down the middle, then wings. Lombardi has been drafting a fair number of wings to develop. Rinse and repeat.

Pearson and Toffoli have potential to be top 6 players. I'm sure he will draft more.

And you're right, DL doesn't spend higher picks on players with pure talent. He never does.

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03-17-2013, 03:33 PM
  #322
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I don't understand the remark that DL has more defensemen than forwards, then when it's proven wrong, it becomes a debate about TOP line forwards.

Goaltending and defense take longer to develop. Then it's strength down the middle, then wings. Lombardi has been drafting a fair number of wings to develop. Rinse and repeat.

Pearson and Toffoli have potential to be top 6 players. I'm sure he will draft more.

And you're right, DL doesn't spend higher picks on players with pure talent. He never does.
Fair point.

It isn't that I was proven wrong per se but when I was looking over our prospects, I didn't see a whole lot of top end forward prospects, which got me to think why DL focuses so much on goalies and dmen over forwards. Especially as you pointed out since goaltending and defense take longer to develop. Well, if forwards develop quicker, don't their value go up quicker as well? I understand that we needed to develop goalies and dmen earlier in the years but I just don't agree with the Gibson and Forbort picks. These two picks should have been for forwards imo.

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03-17-2013, 04:26 PM
  #323
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Wrong choice of words. Instead of develop I should have said drafted I would just like to see DL focus more on picking forwards than dmen and goalies, that's all. I'm still bitter about picking Forbort over Etem.
We've drafted 3 goalies since 2007 (the first draft under our current scouting team). That's likely one of the lowest amounts over that time frame.

What is being ignored here is that development plays a HUGE role in a player becoming an NHL top line player, as does the pre-draft interviews. I mean if you just want us to draft a guy with top line ability, we could, but that's simple. I mean you and me could buy a pre-draft preview magazine and draft those guys touted as high skill players. There's a reason some flop.

Look at Etem. You call it disappointing we didn't select him over Forbort. What has he really done? He had good junior numbers sure, but what about as a pro? Toffoli had just as good of junior numbers, yet as a pro he's scoring .5 goals per game in the AHL on a team that has almost no offensive talent aside from him, Vey and Pearson. Etem has all of 13 goals in 45 AHL games and nothing in 18 NHL games. I'd rather go with Toffoli than Etem at this point. And give Forbort a chance to pan out at the NHL level before writing him off.

If you want us to draft a front line guy just to draft a front lien guy, we could, but that didn't work out to well under DT. Remember Olli Jokinen, Matt Zultek, Alexander Frolov, Jens Karlsson, David Steckel, Dustin Brown, Brian Boyle, Jeff Tambellini, Lauri Tukonen and Anze Kopitar? That's the list of forwards drafted in the first round by DT. Four panned out to be top two line forwards at some point in their career, meaning six didn't. Three of them never even scored a point in the NHL and one (Steckel) we didn't even sign because the 2nd round compensation was better than him). You could even toss in Lewis into this pile possibly, since he was drafted by DT's draft crew, just under Lombardi who took the Kings job a month earlier.

DL has drafted two forwards in the first round, Brayden Schenn and Tanner Pearson. To early to call on Pearson, but this season it's fair to say Schenn has been a top two line forward. One for one so far with DL.

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All I'm talking about is Lombardi drafting a forward that can play for the kings on the first line. And as of now, he has yet to do that.
Schenn doesn't count?

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Purcell may have gotten 91 games but good 80 games were as a LW. I kept insisting that he needs to play RW but unfortunately we had Brownie, JW and Simmonds all ahead of him. Of course, he goes to the bolts and is putting up good numbers playing his natural position of RW. And in the few games he did play RW with the kings, it was on the 4th line with Harrold and Raitis. And believe it or not, I'm not blaming DL or TM because bottom line is, there just wasn't a spot for Purcell.
Sorry, disagree. Firstly, 91 NHL games is 91 NHL games, regardless of where you played. Yes, playing your off-wing hurts, but he played the off-wing, not defense. He still got ice time and he did little with it. As I said, plenty of 1st round draft picks don't get 91 games period to show what they can do. Why should we excuse Purcell for not finding a way to show up in 91 games?

Also, we had Williams for all of 12 games in 2008-2009, and that was Simmonds rookie year. Purcell didn't really have any competition from Williams until very late in the season, and he couldn't even beat out a rookie 20-year-old who had no prior pro league experience. That's pretty sad.

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03-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #324
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Someone on the Windsor OHL page suggests that Ebert will go to Ontario ECHL this week, guessing for their playoffs. Not sure if there's truth to this.

Also, what are your thoughts if any of MacDermid if you've seen him play? Seems like a big SAH dman with some grit to his game.

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03-18-2013, 06:18 PM
  #325
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Don't want to hijack this thread into a DT vs DL post but you also need to factor in trades involving picks IMO. As for Kopitar most of the credit for him becoming a top line NHL center should go to his father and Kopitar himself. As a teen he was mature beyond his years and his admiring Fedorov truly shows in his top notch two way play. Yes Brown was rushed into the NHL but then again so was a player like Clifford IMO.

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