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OT Sacramento looking to finance new arena; UPD NBA rejects relocation to Seattle bid

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:39 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
If there are groups like the Goldwater Group in the process, I could see public funding being rejected. After all, why should an arena be publicly funded? (The Sleep Train Arena is privately-owned.)
That only occurs if a private entity is getting something in way of a subsidy from the city. The city will build and own the building one way or the other unless someone steps up and privately funds it themselves.

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03-15-2013, 02:21 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
They backed out because it was time for them to pay their agreed amount of the arena deal money and the cheapskates balked.

Public and city won't vote down a potential moneymaking, entertainment/sporting arena, because of past precidence (last year) and the fact the people here know that jobs will be created and downtown businesses will thrive with the frequent sporting events, concerts, disney stuff etc...
yeah they have, Clowe, care to explain why there's now 3 public votes on the arena project, if the attempt is to keep the Kings, then why didn't Sacramento, and hasn't California been struggling budget-wise, to avoid a scenario where Detroit now sits having an EFM decide what they do... to think that's going to save the Kings is a fallacy.... how can an entertainment/sporting arena operate w/o a major tenant, Kansas City has said they want nothing to do w/ a pro sports franchise in either the NBA OR NHL, can Sacramento do that, While competing w/ Oakland/SF/SJ/LA/Anaheim, LIKE Glendale's indirectly competing w/ AWA, should the Coyotes be relocated.

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03-15-2013, 08:57 PM
  #328
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yeah they have, Clowe, care to explain why there's now 3 public votes on the arena project, if the attempt is to keep the Kings, then why didn't Sacramento, and hasn't California been struggling budget-wise, to avoid a scenario where Detroit now sits having an EFM decide what they do... to think that's going to save the Kings is a fallacy.... how can an entertainment/sporting arena operate w/o a major tenant, Kansas City has said they want nothing to do w/ a pro sports franchise in either the NBA OR NHL, can Sacramento do that, While competing w/ Oakland/SF/SJ/LA/Anaheim, LIKE Glendale's indirectly competing w/ AWA, should the Coyotes be relocated.
Somewhere in there was a point.

You attempted to an ask a question in this mess but the problem is you fail to understand the dynamics of the market you think you know about. Sacramento as a market in competition with the Bay Area and LA? Are you kidding me? There are 2.5 million people in the Sacramento area and the Bay Area is 100 miles away while LA is close to 400 miles away. The bottom line is that it stands on its own as a market.

The only way that anybody that has what could be considered as a major event is going to come to Sacramento is with the new arena. NCAA has already said as much with their tournament no longer coming here due to Sleep Train's status.

I will not even get into trying to relate California's state budget with Sacramento's city budget as if they are intertwined.


Last edited by Major4Boarding: 03-15-2013 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Not necessary, PF
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03-15-2013, 09:11 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Somewhere in there was a point.

You attempted to an ask a question in this mess but the problem is you fail to understand the dynamics of the market you think you know about. Sacramento as a market in competition with the Bay Area and LA? Are you kidding me? There are 2.5 million people in the Sacramento area and the Bay Area is 100 miles away while LA is close to 400 miles away. The bottom line is that it stands on its own as a market.

The only way that anybody that has what could be considered as a major event is going to come to Sacramento is with the new arena. NCAA has already said as much with their tournament no longer coming here due to Sleep Train's status.

I will not even get into trying to relate California's state budget with Sacramento's city budget as if they are intertwined.
THAT'S WHY Sacramento's trying too hard and too fast, PF, TO think to have 3 public comment periods and have an arena deal to be voted on by March 26th, isn't realistic, because Sacramento still has to do something w/ the "White Elephant" that STA will likely be, but you're also going to be competing w/ Ellison's Oracle Arena, now that Golden State is building their facility in SF.... that's the point all of the posters have been trying to implore to you and Clowe Me, but both of you think that status quo is the answer? Even if the Sacramento downtown arena is even approved by 3/26, much less voted on by then, doesn't end the NBA Vote on the Hansen PSA in mid April..... KJ's grandstanding just as he was when he was A Suns PG, and has turned himself into what all citizens don't want: a politician.


Last edited by Major4Boarding: 03-15-2013 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Clean up edited post
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03-15-2013, 09:52 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
THAT'S WHY Sacramento's trying too hard and too fast, PF, TO think to have 3 public comment periods and have an arena deal to be voted on by March 26th, isn't realistic, because Sacramento still has to do something w/ the "White Elephant" that STA will likely be, but you're also going to be competing w/ Ellison's Oracle Arena, now that Golden State is building their facility in SF.... that's the point all of the posters have been trying to implore to you and Clowe Me, but both of you think that status quo is the answer? Even if the Sacramento downtown arena is even approved by 3/26, much less voted on by then, doesn't end the NBA Vote on the Hansen PSA in mid April..... KJ's grandstanding just as he was when he was A Suns PG, and has turned himself into what all citizens don't want: a politician.
None of this makes any sense with what the issues are. Competing with Oracle Arena? They never have...they never will. Events that have historically gone to Oracle Arena have made stops in Arco/Power Balance/Sleep Train Arena. They are not in competition. They are different markets. End of story.

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03-15-2013, 09:54 PM
  #331
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That only occurs if a private entity is getting something in way of a subsidy from the city. The city will build and own the building one way or the other unless someone steps up and privately funds it themselves.
The way I see it, it is probably not a good idea for government to be in the arena ownership business---you cannot derive property tax revenue from such an arena. If the city were to grant a master lease to a private operator, which would put the property on the tax rolls, that is something I could agree with (the Verizon Center is owned by the owner of the Caps and Wizards, but the land under the arena is municipally-owned). That will also be the case with the new Warriors arena.

My stance is primarily based on the stance that building sports venues is not the responsibility of the government.

BTW, Sleep Train Arena is 25 years old - Oracle Arena is 47 years old.

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03-15-2013, 10:01 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
The way I see it, it is probably not a good idea for government to be in the arena ownership business---you cannot derive property tax revenue from such an arena. If the city were to grant a master lease to a private operator, which would put the property on the tax rolls, that is something I could agree with (the Verizon Center is owned by the owner of the Caps and Wizards, but the land under the arena is municipally-owned). That will also be the case with the new Warriors arena.

BTW, Sleep Train Arena is 25 years old - Oracle Arena is 47 years old.
They can be in the arena ownership business as long as they are the only game in town and are running it properly. If it was Phoenix/Glendale where there is another arena competing with you, I'd agree but this isn't the case. They can profit off of this venture in this market.

Sleep Train may only be 25 years old but the original investment in the arena was poor to put it lightly and Oracle was not only invested into better for the time, it was also remodeled. It cost 40 million in 1986-88 to build Arco. It cost 25 mil in 1964-66 to build Oracle. That poor investment into Arco is why it needs to be redone and why nobody save for some concerts and the WWE wants to do events there but are still willing to go to Oakland.

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03-15-2013, 11:00 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post

BTW, Sleep Train Arena is 25 years old - Oracle Arena is 47 years old.
The then Oakland Coliseum Arena underwent a $125M complete renovation/rebuild in 1996-97. They completely gutted and rebuilt the arena within the existing outer shell - adding luxury boxes and ~4,500 add'l seats. The Warriors played the '96-'97 season at the Tank - God, the ice sucked that year (even more than usual).

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Old
03-17-2013, 08:53 AM
  #334
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Warriors, arena wise or play wise, have never affected the kings or Sacramento. What people from Seattle in here don't seem to understand is that Sacramento has a lot of people and is it's own market. Warriors have always represented the entire bay and the kings have represented the entire valley. Two totally different areas, two different fanbases.

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03-17-2013, 09:10 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
yeah they have, Clowe, care to explain why there's now 3 public votes on the arena project, if the attempt is to keep the Kings, then why didn't Sacramento, and hasn't California been struggling budget-wise, to avoid a scenario where Detroit now sits having an EFM decide what they do... to think that's going to save the Kings is a fallacy.... how can an entertainment/sporting arena operate w/o a major tenant, Kansas City has said they want nothing to do w/ a pro sports franchise in either the NBA OR NHL, can Sacramento do that, While competing w/ Oakland/SF/SJ/LA/Anaheim, LIKE Glendale's indirectly competing w/ AWA, should the Coyotes be relocated.
Sacramento isn't in competition with any of those cities. That doesn't make any sense. Sacramento msa has population of over 2 mil. The climate, economy, and people are different from those in the bay area. This isn't dinky Washington state where one city represents an entire state. Kj is doing this in the small hopes the city will convince the bog to vote down Hansen. He is also said that regardless of their decision, that the city is getting a new arena. He said this long before the maloof brothers cut their ties with him and refused to negotiate with the city or a potential local buyer. That's what you people from Seattle and other areas are refusing to recognize, you want to blame the city and fans of Sacramento when the owners have never tried to sale locally. After their fight with kj after they walked away from their verbal agreement, they were out to sell this city out.


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03-17-2013, 10:48 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Sacramento isn't in competition with any of those cities. That doesn't make any sense. Sacramento msa has population of over 2 mil. The climate, economy, and people are different from those in the bay area. This isn't dinky Washington state where one city represents an entire state. Kj is doing this in the small hopes the city will convince the bog to vote down Hansen. He is also said that regardless of their decision, that the city is getting a new arena. He said this long before the maloof brothers cut their ties with him and refused to negotiate with the city or a potential local buyer. That's what you people from Seattle and other areas are refusing to recognize, you want to blame the city and fans of Sacramento when the owners have never tried to sale locally. After their fight with kj after they walked away from their verbal agreement, they were out to sell this city out.
That's right. And that's why I, and a lot of others in Seattle, am of the view that the NBA should keep the Kings there and award Seattle an expansion franchise. The folks down in Sacramento do not deserve to lose their team because their ownership, the Maloofs, refuse to deal in good faith. Their behavior throughout this past year in particular on this has been deplorable, and I think that's being kind. I have been paying attention to this issue BTW for probably a lot longer than most people in Seattle and know full well what the situation is down there. You guys in Sacramento are dealing with a bunch of people who have no idea what the words integrity, honesty, transparency and class mean when it comes to making business deals.

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03-17-2013, 10:53 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Warriors, arena wise or play wise, have never affected the kings or Sacramento. What people from Seattle in here don't seem to understand is that Sacramento has a lot of people and is it's own market. Warriors have always represented the entire bay and the kings have represented the entire valley. Two totally different areas, two different fanbases.
I think Reno and northern Nevada also are part of Sacto's market if I'm not mistaken....

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03-17-2013, 01:41 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Warriors, arena wise or play wise, have never affected the kings or Sacramento. What people from Seattle in here don't seem to understand is that Sacramento has a lot of people and is it's own market. Warriors have always represented the entire bay and the kings have represented the entire valley. Two totally different areas, two different fanbases.
Then why do they talk 49ers so much on Sacramento radio?

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Sacramento isn't in competition with any of those cities. That doesn't make any sense. Sacramento msa has population of over 2 mil. The climate, economy, and people are different from those in the bay area. This isn't dinky Washington state where one city represents an entire state.
Sacramento is half the size and has a fraction of the corporate base as that city you mischaracterize as representing the entire state. Tell that to the Blazers fans in Vancouver.

Quote:
Kj is doing this in the small hopes the city will convince the bog to vote down Hansen. He is also said that regardless of their decision, that the city is getting a new arena. He said this long before the maloof brothers cut their ties with him and refused to negotiate with the city or a potential local buyer. That's what you people from Seattle and other areas are refusing to recognize, you want to blame the city and fans of Sacramento when the owners have never tried to sale locally.
#1 the sale isn't getting blocked. KJ is playing for the future whether it is a Charlotte type deal or setting himself up to be the next head of the player union.

#2 We don't blame Sacramento, we blame OKC and David Stern's NBA franchise reality. At the end of the day, the NBA wants a team in OKC more than they do Sacramento I guess.

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03-17-2013, 02:39 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by snovalleyhockeyfan View Post
That's right. And that's why I, and a lot of others in Seattle, am of the view that the NBA should keep the Kings there and award Seattle an expansion franchise. The folks down in Sacramento do not deserve to lose their team because their ownership, the Maloofs, refuse to deal in good faith. Their behavior throughout this past year in particular on this has been deplorable, and I think that's being kind. I have been paying attention to this issue BTW for probably a lot longer than most people in Seattle and know full well what the situation is down there. You guys in Sacramento are dealing with a bunch of people who have no idea what the words integrity, honesty, transparency and class mean when it comes to making business deals.
Thank you.

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I think Reno and northern Nevada also are part of Sacto's market if I'm not mistaken....
You are correct.

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Originally Posted by Nuclear SUV View Post
Then why do they talk 49ers so much on Sacramento radio?
Because there has never been an NFL football team in Sacramento, and the 49ers are the most popular "local" team. They have to like someone, right?

Portland and the rest of Oregon is full of Seahawks fans, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't support an NFL team if they got one.

Interesting stat, there are more season ticket holders in the Sacramento area for 49ers and Raiders games than there are from Oakland and SF. I'd have to imagine that this area would fully support a team that came here.


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Sacramento is half the size and has a fraction of the corporate base as that city you mischaracterize as representing the entire state.Tell that to the Blazers fans in Vancouver.
I'm not sure what Seattle's population has to do with my point of California being much bigger than Washington, not only in size, but in population. California has over 38 million people vs Washington which has less than 7 million. As for the MSA and corporate sponsorship, that's pretty irrelevant. Past history clearly indicates that with bad Kings teams, with normal owners who aren't threatening to sell the team every year, the team will sell tickets and will have the support of the city.

Quote:
#1 the sale isn't getting blocked. KJ is playing for the future whether it is a Charlotte type deal or setting himself up to be the next head of the player union.
#1, this is in hopes of getting it voted down, no matter how futile that looks, with the secondary reason being to prove to the NBA what most already know, and that is that this area can hold a profitable NBA franchise.

Quote:
#2 We don't blame Sacramento, we blame OKC and David Stern's NBA franchise reality. At the end of the day, the NBA wants a team in OKC more than they do Sacramento I guess.
#2 The NBA isn't making this decision. Stern absolved himself of any decision making and has left it in the hands of the bog on April 18th and 19th.

The way the Maloof's got the sale done and papers filed also really tied Stern's hands in ways he could help Sacramento. He has said in interviews that both Seattle and Sacramento deserve basketball teams, but, unfortunately, only 1 will have one next season.


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03-17-2013, 03:05 PM
  #340
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This sale is as good as done

Their is absolutely no incentive to stay in Sacramento while Seattle is in the mix

Unfortunately for Sacramento that's the terrible reality


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03-17-2013, 04:22 PM
  #341
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Their is absolutely no incentive to stay in Sacramento while Seattle is in the mix
Not at this moment, but if they can prove they've got solid local ownership and that they will profit at or around what Seattle can, then the voters will have something to think about.

The deal is probably done, but it has nothing to do with the cities involved. It has more to do with the shady dealings of the Maloof's, who never informed or gave the minority owners an opportunity to buy, and the deep pockets of Hansen. If the team was in Seattle and this deal was about moving to Sacramento, it would be just as much in Sacramento's favor is it is in Seattle's right now.

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03-17-2013, 04:33 PM
  #342
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Just glad this will be over soon. Wherever the kings go, one fan base is going to be hurt and angry. I've prepared myself for either occurrence.

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03-17-2013, 04:48 PM
  #343
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Just glad this will be over soon. Wherever the kings go, one fan base is going to be hurt and angry. I've prepared myself for either occurrence.
Odds are in your favor for getting the team. I won't blame Seattle or the NBA, I'll blame two heartless, soulless, individuals whose terrible business investments and unwillingness to negotiate locally after severing many relationships caused them to sell to someone outside of the area.

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03-17-2013, 04:54 PM
  #344
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Odds are in your favor for getting the team. I won't blame Seattle or the NBA, I'll blame two heartless, soulless, individuals whose terrible business investments and unwillingness to negotiate locally after severing many relationships caused them to sell to someone outside of the area.
Then you will more or less know how Seattle fans feel about Howard Schultz.

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03-17-2013, 05:44 PM
  #345
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Then you will more or less know how Seattle fans feel about Howard Schultz.
I already do. It's good that Seattle will more than likely get their team back, but two wrongs don't make a right. Hopefully once the deal is likely accepted, the league can make some sort of guarantee (on paper, not a Maloof-esque verbal agreement) to the city of Sacramento that they'll be the next city to get a team, in one way or another.

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03-18-2013, 05:49 PM
  #346
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Warriors, arena wise or play wise, have never affected the kings or Sacramento. What people from Seattle in here don't seem to understand is that Sacramento has a lot of people and is it's own market. Warriors have always represented the entire bay and the kings have represented the entire valley. Two totally different areas, two different fanbases.
I think that's a bit presumptuous, more because of growth patterns than anything else. Many people moved to Sacramento with the intention of commuting to the bay, which was all well and good until Katrina and the resulting effects on gas prices. That doesn't mean Sacramento wasn't a viable market prior, just that the situation gets a bit complicated, people who grew up in the valley got priced out of the market for a while, the attitude of the population changes... and it gets harder to recover a fan base if the team's fortunes take a dip.

Oh, the second worst thing that could happen... ALMOST getting to the final, getting jobbed (probably in a criminal manner) in the process, then not being able to keep the team around. When expectations get raised, so do the stakes.

Oh, then the FIRST worst: I remember being able to pay less than $30 and sit 20 rows up in Arco when the Blazers came to town... early 90s. I remember the face value of tickets in the early 90s. I remember not having to spend so much, oh, maybe a little less than a generation ago. I kind of wonder if the NBA has priced itself out of Sacramento. On this, I'll add: if there was more competition in Portland for the Blazers, they could have priced out of the Portland market by now. The reasonably good seats in Portland are $140-160 face value. The valley isn't known for the kind of jobs you can get in Silicon Valley or San Francisco.

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03-18-2013, 10:35 PM
  #347
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I think that's a bit presumptuous, more because of growth patterns than anything else. Many people moved to Sacramento with the intention of commuting to the bay, which was all well and good until Katrina and the resulting effects on gas prices. That doesn't mean Sacramento wasn't a viable market prior, just that the situation gets a bit complicated, people who grew up in the valley got priced out of the market for a while, the attitude of the population changes... and it gets harder to recover a fan base if the team's fortunes take a dip.

Oh, the second worst thing that could happen... ALMOST getting to the final, getting jobbed (probably in a criminal manner) in the process, then not being able to keep the team around. When expectations get raised, so do the stakes.

Oh, then the FIRST worst: I remember being able to pay less than $30 and sit 20 rows up in Arco when the Blazers came to town... early 90s. I remember the face value of tickets in the early 90s. I remember not having to spend so much, oh, maybe a little less than a generation ago. I kind of wonder if the NBA has priced itself out of Sacramento. On this, I'll add: if there was more competition in Portland for the Blazers, they could have priced out of the Portland market by now. The reasonably good seats in Portland are $140-160 face value. The valley isn't known for the kind of jobs you can get in Silicon Valley or San Francisco.
Nobody in their right mind moved to Sacramento with the intention of commuting to the Bay.

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03-18-2013, 10:53 PM
  #348
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Nobody in their right mind moved to Sacramento with the intention of commuting to the Bay.
There are a few, a very few. But not the norm.

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03-18-2013, 10:55 PM
  #349
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There are a few, a very few. But not the norm.
There may be a few but they are not in their right mind.

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03-19-2013, 12:37 PM
  #350
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A 'playing to win' tour bus is going on the road which week to lobby other cities and meeting the Mayor on April 3 in Manhattan

http://www.examiner.com/article/effo...oes-nationwide

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Anticipated future Playing to Win Tour Stops:

•Oakland, CA
•Los Angeles, CA
•Phoenix, AZ
•Salt Lake City, UT
•Minneapolis, MN
•Oklahoma City, OK
•San Antonio, TX
•Miami, FL
•Washington, DC
•Indianapolis, IN
•Boston, MA
•Manhattan, NY
Taxpayer's money well spent ....hope the donations add up

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