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Datsyuk is the best 2 way player in the world

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Old
03-17-2013, 04:28 PM
  #251
Cursed Lemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFSorcerer View Post
Lemieux and Gretzky say hi. They were dominant.
Sidney Crosby isn't even CLOSE to their PPG level.

Guess Sid's not dominant.

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Old
03-17-2013, 04:29 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by deve View Post
Ok. I am fine with this because it means you can not compare Dats playing in Detroit with Crosby playing in Pittsburg. It's apple to oranges. Case closed.

It really is.

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03-17-2013, 04:30 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
So, Ovechkin has only been a finisher for 2 of his seasons?
ok...you got me there

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Old
03-17-2013, 04:30 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Sidney Crosby isn't even CLOSE to their PPG level.

Guess Sid's not dominant.

But PD totally is.

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03-17-2013, 04:31 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by MFSorcerer View Post
Sid, Geno, Stamkos, Kane, Tavares, Toews. Those are 6 forwards right there that are better than PD. PD falls even further once we add goalies and defencemen.
Again, your opinion. I guarantee you most people think Datsyuk is better than Tavares, Kane, and Toews... Don't know how you can criticize Datsyuk for only being a PPG and then claim Toews is better when he has never hit a PPG or won a Selke...

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03-17-2013, 04:31 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFSorcerer View Post
But PD totally is.
What are you even trying to prove here?

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Old
03-17-2013, 04:35 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Sidney Crosby isn't even CLOSE to their PPG level.

Guess Sid's not dominant.
I'm sure Crosby's peak adjusted PPG is close to Lemieux or Gretzky when you take theirs down to account for the time period they played in. Datsyuk isn't top 5 in goal or point scoring since the 04 lockout. Crosby's played less games since then and is right near the top.

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03-17-2013, 04:38 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
I'm sure Crosby's peak adjusted PPG is close to Lemieux or Gretzky when you take theirs down to account for the time period they played in. Datsyuk isn't top 5 in goal or point scoring since the 04 lockout. Crosby's played less games since then and is right near the top.
He was making a point about context. Over your head, I guess.

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03-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #259
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It all just comes down to what you value. For me and for what I value in a forward, I'll take the guy whose "two-way" value leans more heavily on offense than the other way around(would be the opposite for dmen). So, in that sense, I'd rather have a Crosby over a Datsyuk(leaving out age, money, etc). But that's just one opinion. Datsyuk is still a monster that is an absolute joy to watch. Very special player.

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03-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #260
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As a fan of another player or opposing team, you DON'T wanna see it... but it's just undeniable... For me the one skill datsyuk has that crosby doesn't is his ability to steal the puck in ways that I've never seen and more conisitently than any player I've ever watched. It's just ridiculous




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03-17-2013, 04:51 PM
  #261
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And the overrating of Pavel Datsyuk continues.

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03-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
What are you even trying to prove here?

That you water down the word "dominant".

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Old
03-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #263
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Crosby trolls can't let a thread exist where another player is praised without pointing out how Crosby is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better...

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03-17-2013, 05:00 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Crosby trolls can't let a thread exist where another player is praised without pointing out how Crosby is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better...
But... he is. It's not "Crosby trolls", just realists replying to crazy claims.

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03-17-2013, 05:01 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
I'm sure Crosby's peak adjusted PPG is close to Lemieux or Gretzky when you take theirs down to account for the time period they played in. Datsyuk isn't top 5 in goal or point scoring since the 04 lockout. Crosby's played less games since then and is right near the top.
Gretzky top 3 years were 83-84 (205 points, 2.77 ppg), 85-86 (215, 2.69), and 81-82 (212, 2.65)

Lemieux's top 3 years were 92-93 (160, 2.67), 88-89 (199, 2.62), and 95-96 (161, 2.3)

Crosby's have been 11-12 (37 in 22, 1.68), 12-13 (47 in 29 so far, 1.62) and 10-11 (66 in 41, 1.61)

Lets adjust all years to 6.5 goals per game. That's in between what Crosby has mostly dealt with (mid 5s) and what Lemieux and Gretzky dealt with (7.5-8)

Gretzky's best 3 ppg years become 2.28 (83-84), 2.20 (85-86), 2.17 (84-85)
Lemieux's best 3 ppg years become 2.39 (92-93), 2.38 (95-96), 2.27 (88-89)
Crosby's best 3 ppg years become 2.05 (11-12), 1.94 (12-13), 1.91 (10-11)

So he's still 10-20% behind their peak adjusted scoring which would equate to Crosby getting 141 points, with Lemieux and Gretzky getting 164 and 157 respectively. So sure he's not as far off as 141 vs 200 seems, but he's still markedly behind.

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Old
03-17-2013, 05:01 PM
  #266
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I see it as

Datsyuk>Crosby in the D zone
Datsyuk>>Crosby in the neutral zone
Datsyuk<<Crosby in the offensive zone

Crosby's offense is better than Datsyuk's simply because he makes it easier. Sid creates awesome space and puts pucks right on tape. Datsyuk puts pucks ahead of linemates or does stuff that would work if he had himself on his wing, but is often outside of a guy like Cleary, Bertuzzi or Franzen's capability to think the game. That is why is Sid is one of the best set up/ playmakers in the league. Not that Datsyuk isn't also awesome, but Crosby makes guys like Kunitz or Dupuis seem like some of the better support wingers out there, when in reality they are fairly run of the mill top 6 wingers. At least Dupuis is definitely a pretty ordinary 2nd or 3rd line winger. Kunitz is pretty good but Sid makes him look a lot better than he is some times. Datsyuk can only really make himself look good, Bertuzzi, Franzen, Cleary all look like passengers. Abby is obviously not supposed to be there, but Babcock makes it so.

This thread isn't about Crosby though, and I definitely don't get Crosby's claim for best two-way player in the league. I'd take guys like Toews or Kesler ahead of Sid for 2way. Or Karlsson, for that matter.

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03-17-2013, 05:04 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg1989 View Post
And the overrating of Pavel Datsyuk continues.
You know what's actually overrated? Paces.

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03-17-2013, 05:22 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
Gretzky top 3 years were 83-84 (205 points, 2.77 ppg), 85-86 (215, 2.69), and 81-82 (212, 2.65)

Lemieux's top 3 years were 92-93 (160, 2.67), 88-89 (199, 2.62), and 95-96 (161, 2.3)

Crosby's have been 11-12 (37 in 22, 1.68), 12-13 (47 in 29 so far, 1.62) and 10-11 (66 in 41, 1.61)

Lets adjust all years to 6.5 goals per game. That's in between what Crosby has mostly dealt with (mid 5s) and what Lemieux and Gretzky dealt with (7.5-8)

Gretzky's best 3 ppg years become 2.28 (83-84), 2.20 (85-86), 2.17 (84-85)
Lemieux's best 3 ppg years become 2.39 (92-93), 2.38 (95-96), 2.27 (88-89)
Crosby's best 3 ppg years become 2.05 (11-12), 1.94 (12-13), 1.91 (10-11)

So he's still 10-20% behind their peak adjusted scoring which would equate to Crosby getting 141 points, with Lemieux and Gretzky getting 164 and 157 respectively. So sure he's not as far off as 141 vs 200 seems, but he's still markedly behind.
Crosby's a brilliant player, no question.

It's weird seeing that comparison though, considering the amount of games, or lack there of, played in his case. We use his 3 highest PPG seasons, but then realize that the most games in one season for those averages is 41, which is exactly half a season. This season, due to the lockout won't even give him a chance to play more than 48.

We really need to hope the kid can stay healthy so we can see it more often.

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03-17-2013, 05:22 PM
  #269
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In talking to friends about Datsyuk, I find that the people that played hockey growing up think highly of him and those that never played don't fully understand the praise. Anyway.

Amazing video of his game against the Oilers. I don't know how to embed, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZLcCTMKHBs

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03-17-2013, 05:23 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
You know what's actually overrated? Paces.
In those cases, sample sizes matter, and IMO, I think it's big enough. Heck, even if you cut the pace to 75%, he still dominates.

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03-17-2013, 05:26 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1975 View Post
In talking to friends about Datsyuk, I find that the people that played hockey growing up think highly of him and those that never played don't fully understand the praise. Anyway.

Amazing video of his game against the Oilers. I don't know how to embed, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZLcCTMKHBs
Likewise, he always ranks ridiculously high in player polls, player conversations, and announcer/analysts conversations. You would have thought he was sponsoring CBC last night the way they raved about him, both in between periods and during the telecast. Even Don Cherry had to talk about him.

He's a special talent, no question.

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03-17-2013, 05:27 PM
  #272
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In those cases, sample sizes matter, and IMO, I think it's big enough. Heck, even if you cut the pace to 75%, he still dominates.
What? I just said paces. How you got any specific paces is beyond me. Seems like Crosby family s can take any statement as a slight. Hilarious.

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03-17-2013, 05:29 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
What? I just said I paces. How you got but as specific paces is beyond me. Seems like Crosby family s can take any statement as a slight. Hilarious.
No, it's not about Crosby. It's about people overrating players with elite defense. Same goes for Jonathan Toews. The guy has never been PPG but gets so much respect from everyone. He's a very good player, but not a Top 10 forward.

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03-17-2013, 05:32 PM
  #274
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No, it's not about Crosby. It's about people overrating players with elite defense. Same goes for Jonathan Toews. The guy has never been PPG but gets so much respect from everyone. He's a very good player, but not a Top 10 forward.
What does that have to do with my comment about paces and you jumping to conclusions about specific Crosby paces? Scratching my head here...

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03-17-2013, 05:34 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
What does that have to do with my comment about paces and you jumping to conclusions about specific Crosby paces? Scratching my head here...
First of all, this thread has been about Datsyuk vs. Crosby, so I assumed you were talking about Crosby. I think that's a pretty fair assumption, no? If not, I apologize.

Secondly, my response was to you saying how sensitive people are with Crosby. That's not what my agenda is, and I explained why... with other players too.

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