HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Datsyuk is the best 2 way player in the world

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-17-2013, 05:48 PM
  #276
MastuhNinks
Registered User
 
MastuhNinks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Iron Throne
Posts: 4,481
vCash: 500
What makes Pavel Datsyuk so much better than Jonathan Toews?

I'm genuinely curious.

Datsyuk is pretty much a consensus top 5 player, some are even convinced that he's on the level of Stamkos, Crosby etc. Toews on the other hand is not really considered that level and I often hear the ridiculous claim that 'he's overrated because he's Canadian'.

- Both players have nearly identical production since 2009-2010 (Toews 227 points in 243 games, Datsyuk 226 points in 234 games)
- Both are elite defensively

Now, if you think that Datsyuk is the better player that's fine, but this perception that he's far and away the better player that I see among many users here is perplexing. Everything I've seen of the two recently suggests they're similar caliber players, and the numbers seem to back that up. Datsyuk is flashier in general, but both are players that seem to do everything right, shut down top opposition players and hover around a point per game production.


This thread is NOT about who is the best two-way player in the World, it is NOT about how these guys stack up against Crosby, Malkin or Stamkos. This thread is specifically to discuss how close these two players really are, and why Datsyuk is given so much more respect.


Personally, for me if I have to give the edge to one of them I'd pick Toews, just given the fact that he won the Conn Smythe recently and has such a good reputation as a leader. Regardless though I'd say that the players are extremely close, and I think they're both in the tier right below guys like Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos.

MastuhNinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:50 PM
  #277
hatterson
Global Moderator
 
hatterson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,441
vCash: 874
Send a message via Skype™ to hatterson
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Crosby's a brilliant player, no question.

It's weird seeing that comparison though, considering the amount of games, or lack there of, played in his case. We use his 3 highest PPG seasons, but then realize that the most games in one season for those averages is 41, which is exactly half a season. This season, due to the lockout won't even give him a chance to play more than 48.

We really need to hope the kid can stay healthy so we can see it more often.
I agree. Hopefully he stays healthy and it's not another case of Lindros where we say "what if", or even the same can be said about Lemieux. Where would he have finished all time points if he didn't lose hundreds of games to injuries and cancer.

__________________
Come join us on the By The Numbers forum. Take a look at our introduction post if you're new. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
hatterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:51 PM
  #278
King Woodballs
MVP! MVP! MVP!
 
King Woodballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Your Mind
Posts: 32,229
vCash: 50
Nothing
Because he isnt better

King Woodballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:51 PM
  #279
WarriorofTime
Registered User
 
WarriorofTime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
No, it's not about Crosby. It's about people overrating players with elite defense. Same goes for Jonathan Toews. The guy has never been PPG but gets so much respect from everyone. He's a very good player, but not a Top 10 forward.
Toews is a career .9 PPG player. Only an idiot would trade for an extra .1 PPG and give up league-leading Takeaways, elite Penalty Killing, high face-off percentage, high shootout percentage, and leadership ability.

WarriorofTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:52 PM
  #280
landesberg
p stastny
 
landesberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: London, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 662
vCash: 500
Toews has linemates.

landesberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #281
Brick Top
eeeehhhhhhhhhhh
 
Brick Top's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
It all just comes down to what you value. For me and for what I value in a forward, I'll take the guy whose "two-way" value leans more heavily on offense than the other way around(would be the opposite for dmen). So, in that sense, I'd rather have a Crosby over a Datsyuk(leaving out age, money, etc). But that's just one opinion. Datsyuk is still a monster that is an absolute joy to watch. Very special player.
I can roll with most of this. It's been great to be a Wings fans over the last decade and see Datsyuk pull off insane moves and takeaways on a nightly basis, and play with an incredible will to win. He's a highlight reel talent and my favorite player since Fedorov.

Crosby's just the more productive offensive player- a variety of factors for the Wings and Pens play into that, but the fact remains that he creates offense for generally limited wingers (not that Datsyuk has been playing with any offensive talent this season), and IMO he's the better goal scorer. Datsyuk's better defensively and probably more fun to watch, but Crosby's the best player in the league.

Brick Top is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #282
ottawa
go habs go
 
ottawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,646
vCash: 0
Imo Datsyuk is a game changer and his defensive game is flawless, he's been leading the league in takeaways or finishing at the top for a few years now (3-5 i'd imagine). Toews also has the luxury of playing with arguably one of the best top 6's in the league so that helps his production.

ottawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #283
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Datsyuk owns the ice.

Most of the really good players can make things happen and score goals.

But players who dominate the ice routinely are rare

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #284
BigBootsie
Registered User
 
BigBootsie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Illinois
Country: United States
Posts: 1,636
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by landesberg View Post
Toews has linemates.
Datsyuk plays by himself? How sad.

BigBootsie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #285
FormerRedwingFan
Sarcastic User Name
 
FormerRedwingFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 1,382
vCash: 500
These X better then Y threads and top 5 threads seem so pointless these guys are all elite players and are as good enough as each other that any give night they switch ranks with each other.

FormerRedwingFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #286
Cursed Lemon
Registered Bruiser
 
Cursed Lemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 3,520
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Cursed Lemon Send a message via MSN to Cursed Lemon Send a message via Yahoo to Cursed Lemon
Toews doesn't do this on a nightly basis.



Which is what most people don't get about Datsyuk.

Cursed Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #287
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 5,555
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
First of all, this thread has been about Datsyuk vs. Crosby, so I assumed you were talking about Crosby. I think that's a pretty fair assumption, no? If not, I apologize.

Secondly, my response was to you saying how sensitive people are with Crosby. That's not what my agenda is, and I explained why... with other players too.
You keep saying they are overrated because of defense. Yet you have yet to give a reason as to why defense is overrated. The object of the game is to win. To win you have to outscore your opponent. The objective of every player is to contribute to scoring/stopping the other team from scoring. Datsyuk has three Selkies, he controls the play through possession, he's elite at reading the play and taking the puck from the opposing player.


All I see us the same posters parrot the crap over and over. Overrated, defense is overrated, take a ways are overrated, dangles this, dekes that, Youtube blah blah blah. Guess what the entire hockey world disagree with you. Opposing fans rave about him, opposing players rank him near the top in numerous categories and overall, every front office guy and coach calls him a top five or so player as does the hockey media.

At some point you have to wonder if it's you that is wrong and not everyone around you.

As a Karlsson fan you should understand thus more than most.

Syckle78 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:56 PM
  #288
Wingsfan2965*
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 6,610
vCash: 500
IMO Toews is massively underrated here. Datsyuk's better, but Toews still gets the shaft from a lot of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Nothing
Because he isnt better

Wingsfan2965* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 05:58 PM
  #289
ottawa
go habs go
 
ottawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,646
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedorov View Post
These X better then Y threads and top 5 threads seem so pointless these guys are all elite players and are as good enough as each other that any give night they switch ranks with each other.
No, imo Datsyuk holds the #1 rank for 2 way forwards and he shares it with no one. Maybe next season he might slip down a spot or two but as of right now he is definitely the best 2 way forward the game has to offer.

ottawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:00 PM
  #290
tikkanen5rings*
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: in your head!
Posts: 11,686
vCash: 500
What makes Forsberg better than Sakic?
Youtube

tikkanen5rings* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:00 PM
  #291
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Don't get me wrong. I like Toews.
But Datsyuk is kind of like all of Toews' defense and "intangibles" with Kane's stickhandling

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:01 PM
  #292
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarry Curry View Post
What makes Forsberg better than Sakic?
Youtube
As a Wings fan, you know what scared me about Sakic? His wrist shot.

You know what scared me about Forsberg? Everything.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:01 PM
  #293
BigBootsie
Registered User
 
BigBootsie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Illinois
Country: United States
Posts: 1,636
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Toews doesn't do this on a nightly basis.



Which is what most people don't get about Datsyuk.
Doesn't do what? Score? Wasn't that Datsyuk's first goal in like 12 games?

Take the puck away from the other team? Datsyuk has one more "Takeaway" than Toews.

"Giveaways"? Toews ranked overall at 122 with 15, Dats at 22 with 23.

Not sure what your point is.

BigBootsie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:02 PM
  #294
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,734
vCash: 500
Datsyuk is a little bit better than Toews because his offensive game and defensive game are both slightly better. Toews isn't too far behind, especially considering his age.

Beau Knows is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:03 PM
  #295
ottawa
go habs go
 
ottawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,646
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBootsie View Post
Doesn't do what? Score? Wasn't that Datsyuk's first goal in like 12 games?

Take the puck away from the other team? Datsyuk has one more "Takeaway" than Toews.

"Giveaways"? Toews ranked overall at 122 with 15, Dats at 22 with 23.

Not sure what your point is.


Change your username to "numbers" because that's clearly all you care about. Actually watch the video then comment again

ottawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #296
BigBootsie
Registered User
 
BigBootsie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Illinois
Country: United States
Posts: 1,636
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post


Change your username to "numbers" because that's clearly all you care about. Actually watch the video then comment again
So one youtube video can tell you why Datsyuk is better than Toews?

I provided numbers because the topic is discussing "What makes Pavel Datsyuk so much better than Jonathan Toews?"

BigBootsie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #297
Mantha Poodoo
Playoff Beard
 
Mantha Poodoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Toews is a career .9 PPG player. Only an idiot would trade for an extra .1 PPG and give up league-leading Takeaways, elite Penalty Killing, high face-off percentage, high shootout percentage, and leadership ability.
I think it's also fair to point out that Toews is a better goalscorer than most centers with a similar PPG, and I'd personally take him putting the puck in the net over the small handful of assists needed to put him up to PPG.

Assuming all the intoewsibles, defense and what not are the same, which player do you take?

Toews: 82 GP, 33G, 74P (Toews career average)
Player B: 82 GP, 29-30G, 81-82P

(If anyone is curious about the source of these numbers, they're Zetterberg's averages since Toews has been in the league, so starting with 07-08 season. Zetterberg himself is irrelevant to the conversation, just wanted to use a real PPG center over the same time span as Toews's career as the source of average center goalscoring and Z fits the bill to a T).

Mantha Poodoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:06 PM
  #298
Wingsfan2965*
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 6,610
vCash: 500
Datsyuk: 30 points in 28 games.
Toews: 26 points in 28 games.

Datsyuk's most common linemates: Justin Abdelkader. Dan Cleary
Toews' most common linemates: Marian Hossa. Brandon Saad.

Anddd... Bootsie's about to get mad.

Wingsfan2965* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:06 PM
  #299
Trafalgar Law
Waive Dallas Eakins
 
Trafalgar Law's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,428
vCash: 500
You know what's the only thing scarier than Datsyuk's 2-way game? He has an equally competent teammate named Henrik Zetterberg who could also realistically lay claim to "best 2-way player in the NHL". Hakaan Anderson better be the highest paid scout in the NHL.

Trafalgar Law is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 06:06 PM
  #300
tikkanen5rings*
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: in your head!
Posts: 11,686
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
As a Wings fan, you know what scared me about Sakic? His wrist shot.

You know what scared me about Forsberg? Everything.
I was merely trying to demonstrate flashier isn't always better.
You know Sakic was the better player right?

tikkanen5rings* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.