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Old
03-17-2013, 03:24 PM
  #376
Kaibur
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Bailey isn't any better than Vermette, Lombardi or Hanzal. So why trade for him? He is also an RFA who needs to be paid. I'd much, much rather trade for someone that has a ceiling higher than 30 points. The whole point of trading Klesla is to clear money to keep Yandle while opening up a spot and acquiring a decent forward.

This team literally does not have a first line. I think you have to trade Yandle. It sucks that he is such an awesome guy. But you need to clear that money to sign another scoring winger, and trade for a #1C.

Here's what a "keep Yandle, trade Klesla" scenario looks like.



That's terrible. Maloney has to swap full price players for ELCs constantly if he wants to have a competitive roster. We don't have any talent at forward coming through the system. What you see is what you get. It's so bad that I might explore trading Gormley for an equivalent forward prospect. Look how old that lineup is. Devoid of skill, mostly. That's what $54 million looks like when you pay three guys $15 million on the back end. I didn't even account for money to Stone and Korpi, just their tenders, and Boedker might need more money. Smith too.

If the team moves, you trade Doan. If the team stays, you trade Yandle. Sucks, but that's where we are at. There is no feasible way to ice a team as good as this year, past years, or anywhere near good enough to reliably be considered a playoff team with both of those guys on the roster next year without an owner. It is what it is. OEL's back-loaded contract is great and all, but it still doesn't change much. If anything, it gives us a better shot at keeping Boedker.
Bailey would replace Sullivan's old-ass, not Vermette, Hanzal or Lombardi. And Bailey isn't going to get a lot. NYI have kinda screwed him.

FORWARDS
Mikkel Boedker ($3.200m) / Antoine Vermette ($3.750m) / Shane Doan ($5.300m)
Josh Bailey ($1.300m) / Martin Hanzal ($3.100m) / Radim Vrbata ($3.000m)
Lauri Korpikoski ($1.850m) / Matthew Lombardi ($1.500m) / David Moss ($2.100m)
Kyle Chipchura ($0.875m) / Boyd Gordon ($1.525m) / Nick Johnson ($0.725m)
Paul Bissonnette ($0.738m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Oliver E.-Larsson ($5.500m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Keith Yandle ($5.250m) / Derek Morris ($2.750m)
David Schlemko ($1.188m) / Michael Stone ($0.833m)
Chris Summers ($0.803m) /
GOALTENDERS
Mike Smith ($3.500m)
Chad Johnson ($0.600m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.046% of upper limit)
Rostislav Klesla ($0.030mó1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $53,415,500; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $10,884,500

Plus there's still like $2M left, since OEL is getting $3.5M in year one and his caphit is $5.5M. So there's still some wiggle room. And if someone wants to pay Smith $4M to play in another system, good luck to 'em. That's an expensive gamble.

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03-17-2013, 03:29 PM
  #377
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Swapping Sullivan for Bailey doesn't suddenly make the Coyotes a playoff team.

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03-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #378
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Swapping Sullivan for Bailey doesn't suddenly make the Coyotes a playoff team.
No, but it makes the team younger and more affordable without giving up anyone in the top 4 on D. And it still has a very good chance for Tippett to take them to the playoffs.

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03-17-2013, 03:57 PM
  #379
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No, but it makes the team younger and more affordable without giving up anyone in the top 4 on D. And it still has a very good chance for Tippett to take them to the playoffs.
Younger? Sure, by default. More affordable? Not meaningfully. Better? Absolutely not. You are shuffling chairs on the Titanic. Tippett and Maloney aren't under contract. Until I've heard word that they have been extended, we should assume that the team will be in conservation mode until then. Manage your assets. Assume that you will get 0 wins. How do you best maintain or increase value?

Right now, an asset we can do without is peaking in value. The possible return happens to be the best shot at curing what ails this franchise. I know change is scary. Trading great players, fan favorites, that **** all sucks. But this is what life is like on the floor. Actually, I take that back. The floor this year is actually $44 million, so the NHL is being quite generous when they allow the Coyotes to maintain $10 million or so more than that. But the point stands. Life at the bottom involves buying low and selling high, even if it means moving players that other franchises wouldn't. It's a constant shuffle to get the most production for the least amount of money.

I think this argument is purely academic. I can't see this team staying. Not when there's no one to pay the bills. No money from Glendale, no team.

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03-17-2013, 04:14 PM
  #380
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Younger? Sure, by default. More affordable? Not meaningfully. Better? Absolutely not. You are shuffling chairs on the Titanic. Tippett and Maloney aren't under contract. Until I've heard word that they have been extended, we should assume that the team will be in conservation mode until then. Manage your assets. Assume that you will get 0 wins. How do you best maintain or increase value?

Right now, an asset we can do without is peaking in value. The possible return happens to be the best shot at curing what ails this franchise. I know change is scary. Trading great players, fan favorites, that **** all sucks. But this is what life is like on the floor. Actually, I take that back. The floor this year is actually $44 million, so the NHL is being quite generous when they allow the Coyotes to maintain $10 million or so more than that. But the point stands. Life at the bottom involves buying low and selling high, even if it means moving players that other franchises wouldn't. It's a constant shuffle to get the most production for the least amount of money.

I think this argument is purely academic. I can't see this team staying. Not when there's no one to pay the bills. No money from Glendale, no team.
I really thought you were talking about Rusty at first.

As a professional academic, I almost take offense to that.
Isn't all of the discussions on HFBoards purely hypothetical and abstract? As much as people want to make believe that GMs and agents come on this site, I doubt it really has much impact in the "real" world.

I truly think the franchise is more valuable to an owner if both Yandle and OEL are assets - whether before or after a move. You seem to be pretty gung-ho to move Yandle and finally get those top-line pieces. I'm content to wait until someone makes a foolish offer. And I think we actually have other avenues that allow us to be patient.

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03-17-2013, 04:24 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Kaibur View Post
I truly think the franchise is more valuable to an owner if both Yandle and OEL are assets - whether before or after a move. You seem to be pretty gung-ho to move Yandle and finally get those top-line pieces. I'm content to wait until someone makes a foolish offer. And I think we actually have other avenues that allow us to be patient.
As an academic, you should be familiar with having your argument torn down for the sake of some fun And while this is indeed a message board, a good number of predictions we've made here have come to fruition.

I'm not really gung-ho about trading Yandle. I'm just willing to make that move, because I see it as an inevitability caused by the current situation. I wouldn't trade him before the ownership situation beyond this season is known, so no to a deadline trade. A spendy owner in another market would do well to keep him and look to sign some players. I think Schenn and Couturier for Yandle is foolish on Holmgren's part, but entirely plausible, and I think you have to take it. There are other teams, like Edmonton or the NYI, that could make equally stupid proposals for Yandle and get away with it. Such is life in the NHL as a small market fan.

We are probably 60 days or less from the conclusion of this saga. I'm content with enjoying the ups and downs of the team this year. Thinking about all the different scenarios past this season is mind boggling and often depressing.

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03-17-2013, 04:26 PM
  #382
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If you keep Yandle, you could afford to move Rundblad. I'd say a package containing both Klesla and Rundblad would be incredibly enticing to D desperate team like Philly. You get a rock solid stay at homer for right now and long-term upside in Rundblad. Huge upside, at that. Maybe add Moss whose a little pricey.

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03-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #383
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As an academic, you should be familiar with having your argument torn down for the sake of some fun And while this is indeed a message board, a good number of predictions we've made here have come to fruition.

I'm not really gung-ho about trading Yandle. I'm just willing to make that move, because I see it as an inevitability caused by the current situation. I wouldn't trade him before the ownership situation beyond this season is known, so no to a deadline trade. A spendy owner in another market would do well to keep him and look to sign some players. I think Schenn and Couturier for Yandle is foolish on Holmgren's part, but entirely plausible, and I think you have to take it. There are other teams, like Edmonton or the NYI, that could make equally stupid proposals for Yandle and get away with it. Such is life in the NHL as a small market fan.

We are probably 60 days or less from the conclusion of this saga. I'm content with enjoying the ups and downs of the team this year. Thinking about all the different scenarios past this season is mind boggling and often depressing.
I agree with everything you said, except the inevitability part. I think there's a way that they can keep Yandle in the fold and stay under budget and still sneak into the playoffs next year. But if someone gets crazy or the market spins out of control for a guy like Yandle, you move him. But like GMDM said, it's got to be an offer that he can take to Yandle and his agent and say "Sorry, but it's just too good." And Yandle and his agent will understand.

You think hypothetically they would trade #6 and Couturier for Yandle? They've got the Schenn brothers there, so I kinda doubt they'll move one of 'em for a little while.

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03-17-2013, 05:03 PM
  #384
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You think hypothetically they would trade #6 and Couturier for Yandle? They've got the Schenn brothers there, so I kinda doubt they'll move one of 'em for a little while.
I wouldn't do that trade. That's all potential, no demonstrated ability. There's way too much talent on that team for them to finish top 5. Couturier is the real prize, though. He would have a multiplier effect on the roster beyond just his decent offense. He is Hanzal part two. You have those two healthy, and your 1st line gets a guaranteed mismatch against weaker competition. It'd open the proverbial door for a guy like Boedker to steamroll 3rd liners. But a pick outside the top 5 or so doesn't do much for this franchise. Ultimately, that's too much of a risk when you are trying to manage assets. I'd call up Edmonton and tell them they can have Yandle for Gagner and 1 of their other pieces. See if they bite. They get another top 5 pick they just might.

Look at it this way. You are converting the 'value' of Yandle, which is quite a bit, into offensive value. Yandle brings 50 points from the back end, good enough D, and some intangibles. You could probably turn him into two 50 point forwards or more equivalent, because that's how valuable D like Yandle are. For a team that has no chance in hell of signing offensive talent in FA, it makes sense to do the conversion. I'd argue that, given the Coyotes penchant for developing D, we should farm them out and get comfortable with the idea.

Sometimes I think Coyote fans are so used to having average to terrible forwards that we have Stockholm syndrome. "It's not that bad" "Tippett can make it work"

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03-17-2013, 06:16 PM
  #385
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I would like to see a Vermette plus one of our D prospects for a guy like Strome. It may not make us a lot better now but down the road it should.

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03-17-2013, 06:16 PM
  #386
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If it were actually the #6 and NOT the #7, I'd trade Yandle for Couturier and the pick. If it were Couturier and the #7, I'd say no way Jose.

How about Klesla, Rundblad and Moss for Matt Read and Scott Laughton? At the draft, I mean. I'd guess Rundblad's value is slightly higher than Laughton, and Read's value is a fair bit more than Klesla's. Moss maybe evens it out just a litte? Maybe we add a third? Ends up being something like Georges Laraque and Kyle Turris for Antoine Vermette, Matt Read, and Scott Laughton. Haha.

Let Sullivan walk and replace him with Read, and save a few shekels.

Let Torres walk and replace him with Chipchura, and save a few shekels.

Replace Moss with Klinkhammer, Johnson or Brown and save a few shekels.

Replace Klesla with Stone and save a few shekels.

Get Lombardi to sign a last chance contract for 1.5m and save some dough, there.

Got to work out to a few million in savings, right?


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Old
03-17-2013, 06:24 PM
  #387
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I would like to see a Vermette plus one of our D prospects for a guy like Strome. It may not make us a lot better now but down the road it should.
I've got serious reservations about Strome's ability to translate his game to the nhl level.

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03-17-2013, 06:49 PM
  #388
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I've got serious reservations about Strome's ability to translate his game to the nhl level.
You may be right but he has looked pretty impressive when I've seen him.

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03-17-2013, 07:27 PM
  #389
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You think hypothetically they would trade #6 and Couturier for Yandle? They've got the Schenn brothers there, so I kinda doubt they'll move one of 'em for a little while.
Depends who is available at that spot. I can see the Flys trying to trade up for Seth Jones. They may keep the pick for Darnell Nurse. Don't see any Top D UFAs though. I can see the 'Yotes being interested if Barkov slips to 6, I don't know about Monahan or Lindholm though...

I don't think they will have any interest in Klesla, they can get that type of player in free agency and it seems they are looking for offensive type d-men.

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03-17-2013, 08:06 PM
  #390
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If it were actually the #6 and NOT the #7, I'd trade Yandle for Couturier and the pick. If it were Couturier and the #7, I'd say no way Jose.

How about Klesla, Rundblad and Moss for Matt Read and Scott Laughton? At the draft, I mean. I'd guess Rundblad's value is slightly higher than Laughton, and Read's value is a fair bit more than Klesla's. Moss maybe evens it out just a litte? Maybe we add a third? Ends up being something like Georges Laraque and Kyle Turris for Antoine Vermette, Matt Read, and Scott Laughton. Haha.

Let Sullivan walk and replace him with Read, and save a few shekels.

Let Torres walk and replace him with Chipchura, and save a few shekels.

Replace Moss with Klinkhammer, Johnson or Brown and save a few shekels.

Replace Klesla with Stone and save a few shekels.

Get Lombardi to sign a last chance contract for 1.5m and save some dough, there.

Got to work out to a few million in savings, right?
May as well add Smith to the trade specualtion. Word is he wants 6 mill. a year to resign.

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03-17-2013, 09:10 PM
  #391
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Word? What word?

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03-17-2013, 09:14 PM
  #392
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May as well add Smith to the trade specualtion. Word is he wants 6 mill. a year to resign.
Haha. That's rich.

I think most teams have learned from the Bryzgalov error. Don't overpay a big goalie that played in Tippett's system. Smith has one very good season under his belt and not much else. If another GM wants to make that error, I say we happily move on and give 'em a sly grin like we do with Philly.

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03-17-2013, 09:17 PM
  #393
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Garrioch is the second most worthless voice in hockey behind only eklund.

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