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kindl 27 points, + 49 over a 82 game season

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03-17-2013, 04:10 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Kindl is a 3rd pairing d-man after 8 years of development. Does that make him a good choice with the #19 overall pick in the draft? I think the answer obvious, unless you think the Red Wings organization - a team that drafted and developed Pavel Datsyuk, Hank Zetterberg, Nick Lidstrom, Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov, Chris Osgood, Jimmy Howard, Vladimir Konstantinov, among many others - has no idea how to develop hockey players and as a result are responsible for retarding Kindl's development.

Good luck with that one.
Some of those guys were sure things. Like Stevie, Fedorov. Nearly all of them were a loooooong time ago. Like from the 90s and 80s. And other than Howard, a goalie, none of them were handled the way we have been handling our recent prospects.

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03-17-2013, 04:14 PM
  #152
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Rookie mistake, they happen, as I said. To hone on that and ignore all the good plays he makes is what makes people say you and others "hate" Lashoff. Makes your view appear skewed and irrational.
He's out of position kind of a lot. And in terms of using his body to be a bully, I put him behind Kindl, E, maybe even Q. And he's definitely shown not even a glimpse of any offensive talent, unlike Smith, Kindl.

He's solid enough to be #6 on this squad, but the way he's protected in the lineup is sad. Babcock took Kindl to task about being out of position after a turrrrible Kronwall giveaway. What about Lashoff?

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03-17-2013, 04:44 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Some of those guys were sure things. Like Stevie, Fedorov. Nearly all of them were a loooooong time ago. Like from the 90s and 80s. And other than Howard, a goalie, none of them were handled the way we have been handling our recent prospects.
C'mon man, I get that you really like Kindl but let's be real here. Ericsson has developed into a #1 dman as a very late draft pick. Lashoff is a top 4 as a free agent. Kronwall isn't great but he developed into a #3 dman very quickly. Filppula is a very solid top 6 forward, Mule was a very good power forward for close to 5 years, Hudler is an offensively gifted middle six forward, all guys drafted and developed by Detroit. Don't let your love for Kindl embarrass you. After 8 years he's a bottom pairing dman. I don't see how Detroit is to blame for that fact.

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03-17-2013, 05:02 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
C'mon man, I get that you really like Kindl but let's be real here. Ericsson has developed into a #1 dman as a very late draft pick. Lashoff is a top 4 as a free agent. Kronwall isn't great but he developed into a #3 dman very quickly. Filppula is a very solid top 6 forward, Mule was a very good power forward for close to 5 years, Hudler is an offensively gifted middle six forward, all guys drafted and developed by Detroit. Don't let your love for Kindl embarrass you. After 8 years he's a bottom pairing dman. I don't see how Detroit is to blame for that fact.
Ericsson is a #1 defenseman???
WTF

Lashoff is a top 4?


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03-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
C'mon man, I get that you really like Kindl but let's be real here. Ericsson has developed into a #1 dman as a very late draft pick. Lashoff is a top 4 as a free agent. Kronwall isn't great but he developed into a #3 dman very quickly. Filppula is a very solid top 6 forward, Mule was a very good power forward for close to 5 years, Hudler is an offensively gifted middle six forward, all guys drafted and developed by Detroit. Don't let your love for Kindl embarrass you. After 8 years he's a bottom pairing dman. I don't see how Detroit is to blame for that fact.
First of all, E is only a #1 on this team's average at best d-corp.

Mule was a very good power forward for 3 years. And now.... what?

And you're completely missing the point.

What do Mule, Filppula, Hudler, E all have in common? They weren't kept in the A forever. They were given real shots at the NHL. Don't pretend that was just because they earned it more. I mean seriously, what more does a guy like Tatar have to do to earn a permanent spot? He tore it up on the Griffins, he made a huge impact on the Wings, more points than some of our "top six" forwards, jump started our bottom six. Had an obvious passion to play. Obviously, you can play well, earn a spot, and still not have one.

The Wings have schizophrenia when it comes to their prospects. Some of them get forever to prove themselves. Let's rewind to just 2 years ago when the board could not go one day without another "Why the hell is E still playing?" comment. But he was still playing, and yeah, now he's absolutely fine for the most part. Where was that patience with Kindl? I've watched 99% of the games the past 5 years and I haven't seen much that distinguished Kindl from E in terms of rookie mistakes. The only difference I saw was that E seemed to get 100x more leeway than Kindl.

I'm saying that if Kindl was treated the same way as E, he'd have been the defenseman we see today, a couple years earlier. Actual point production, solid +/-, earning more and more minutes.

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03-17-2013, 06:07 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
C'mon man, I get that you really like Kindl but let's be real here. Ericsson has developed into a #1 dman as a very late draft pick. Lashoff is a top 4 as a free agent. Kronwall isn't great but he developed into a #3 dman very quickly. Filppula is a very solid top 6 forward, Mule was a very good power forward for close to 5 years, Hudler is an offensively gifted middle six forward, all guys drafted and developed by Detroit. Don't let your love for Kindl embarrass you. After 8 years he's a bottom pairing dman. I don't see how Detroit is to blame for that fact.
Kindl is a bottom pairing guy and Lashoff is a top-4 guy yet they have played 17:38 and 17:58 a game .

Also Kindl's numbers would suggest he should be playing more than a bottom-pairing guy. He's a team-best +14 and 3rd in even strength points. Only has 3 less ESP than Kronwall is less games and far less minutes.

He looks more like a 3-4 guy than a 5-6 guy to me. Can't see how you can argue it for Lashoff then cut Kindl down. I think Kindl has been playing how Smith was supposed to play so far this year.

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03-17-2013, 06:10 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
He's out of position kind of a lot. And in terms of using his body to be a bully, I put him behind Kindl, E, maybe even Q. And he's definitely shown not even a glimpse of any offensive talent, unlike Smith, Kindl.
That jives with the band of people who rail against Lashoff, but it doesn't really jive with what's happening on the ice, nor with the coaches, front office, or hockey analysts. His positioning isn't perfect, but it's very good for a rookie. Most importantly, he's adept at effectively getting the puck out of trouble spots, never panicking. He looks like a vet when he's being forechecked and has to move the puck from behind the goal line. He's forcefully moving guys from in and around the crease more than anyone else on the team, with the exception of maybe Ericsson. More than Quincey. Kindl more of a bully? No, though Kindl is playing more physical than he used to, so credit to him. Offense? His only responsibility in that realm is a breakout pass, and for a defenseman of his type, he is proficient there. Has even managed 4 points, which is 4 times as many as Smith. He's a bottom pairing guy, to be sure, with the upside for more, but for a rookie he's a pretty darn good one.

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03-17-2013, 06:13 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
That jives with the band of people who rail against Lashoff, but it doesn't really jive with what's happening on the ice, nor with the coaches, front office, or hockey analysts. His positioning isn't perfect, but it's very good for a rookie. He's forcefully moving guys from in and around the crease more than anyone else on the team, with the exception of maybe Ericsson. More than Quincey. Kindl more of a bully? No, though Kindl is playing more physical than he used to, so credit to him. Offense? His only responsibility in that realm is a breakout pass, and for a defenseman of his type, he is proficient there. Has even managed 4 points, which is 4 times as many as Smith. He's a bottom pairing guy, to be sure, with the upside for more, but for a rookie he's a pretty darn good one.
I know you rag on his breakout pass quite a bit, but have you seen his play in the offensive zone? He's second to only Kronwall in the plays he's made in the O-zone this year, and he gets a ton of pucks on net. Also he skates a ton out of pucks out of trouble in our end, which deserves some credit.

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03-17-2013, 06:17 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
C'mon man, I get that you really like Kindl but let's be real here. Ericsson has developed into a #1 dman as a very late draft pick. Lashoff is a top 4 as a free agent. Kronwall isn't great but he developed into a #3 dman very quickly. Filppula is a very solid top 6 forward, Mule was a very good power forward for close to 5 years, Hudler is an offensively gifted middle six forward, all guys drafted and developed by Detroit. Don't let your love for Kindl embarrass you. After 8 years he's a bottom pairing dman. I don't see how Detroit is to blame for that fact.
Do you not remember what a number 1 defenseman looks like? Also, Lashoff is less of a top 4 defenseman than Kindl is..... Jeez, man.

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03-17-2013, 06:21 PM
  #160
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honestly I use to think Kindl was garbage and was fodder at this point on our team and I basically included him in every single trade proposal I ever made. This season he has been my favorite defenseman along with Ericsson on the team, and if he can keep up his confident play for the rest of the year I think he can be a legit top 4 on this team.

Lashoff is interesting, he doesn't really impress me, but for an undrafted player in your bottom 6 expectations were never going to be high, but as of right now he is not better than Kindl, though he is much younger and has many years to catch up. However, I find often with these relatively unknown players they start off pretty good since no one knows much about them, but they often fizzle out over time to with added responsibilities or once everyone figures them out. It will be interesting to see what type of path Lashoff takes. At this point though if we are trying to ice the best lineup to win the game and make the playoffs, the way the 2 have played, I don't know how you can take Lashoff over Kindl at this point.

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03-17-2013, 06:27 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
The Wings have schizophrenia when it comes to their prospects. Some of them get forever to prove themselves. Let's rewind to just 2 years ago when the board could not go one day without another "Why the hell is E still playing?" comment. But he was still playing, and yeah, now he's absolutely fine for the most part. Where was that patience with Kindl? I've watched 99% of the games the past 5 years and I haven't seen much that distinguished Kindl from E in terms of rookie mistakes. The only difference I saw was that E seemed to get 100x more leeway than Kindl.
A lot of you seem to be way too caught up on "mistakes." They aren't the only factor. The larger picture involves evaluating how effective, overall, a defenseman is. For a long time, Kindl simply wasn't effective, even if he wasn't committing a metric ton of mistakes. He wasn't physical, he panicked in his own zone, he provided zero offense. Lashoff for instance makes a few mistakes, but he's so good in other areas that he's effective overall. Kindl just wasn't ready for a long time. He wasn't good enough. That's why he was held back.


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I'm saying that if Kindl was treated the same way as E, he'd have been the defenseman we see today, a couple years earlier. Actual point production, solid +/-, earning more and more minutes.
Hogwash. Kindl wasn't taking the necessary steps. There was no reason to give him a bigger role earlier on. And really, he wasn't held back much more than Ericsson. Both spent most of 3 seasons in the A, and then were slowly brought along in Detroit. Heck, given the age difference, Kindl's path was actually 2 years faster than Ericsson's.

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03-17-2013, 06:30 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Hogwash. Kindl wasn't taking the necessary steps. There was no reason to give him a bigger role earlier on. And really, he wasn't held back much more than Ericsson. Both spent most of 3 seasons in the A, and then were slowly brought along in Detroit. Heck, given the age difference, Kindl's path was actually 2 years faster than Ericsson's.
While I think some of our prospects should be inserted into the lineup sooner, I think we see some other young kids get put into lineups early and have a really good season, but then they regress. Look at Sean Couturier from last year, he was insane as a teenager. This year he hasn't been as effective and it's unknown whether or not his development would be 'stunted' if he hadn't been up the same amount of time. We see this with teams like Columbus and Edmonton who don't necessarily rush players because they have no choice, but the expectations are out of this world.

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03-17-2013, 06:36 PM
  #163
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I know you rag on his breakout pass quite a bit, but have you seen his play in the offensive zone? He's second to only Kronwall in the plays he's made in the O-zone this year, and he gets a ton of pucks on net. Also he skates a ton out of pucks out of trouble in our end, which deserves some credit.
I was talking about Lashoff, are you talking about Kindl? I agree with that take, and I actually don't recall criticizing Kindl's breakout pass, at least not this year. I think it's been fine. I'm pretty happy about Kindl's play these days, glad to see he's gotten to this point. I don't really have any major complaints about him right now, just keep on keepin' on, Kuba, you're making me a believer.

Though I, like all of us, wish we had another top-pairing defenseman, I'm fine with Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Lashoff, and Kindl right now. I think these guys are playing well, even if some of them have been in too big of a role for parts or all of the season. Beyond them, Huskins is filler, Cola is an 'incomplete,' Quincey is garbage, and I don't see where White fits on this team anymore, despite his RH shot - all recent memories of him are either sucking or being a healthy scratch.

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03-17-2013, 07:24 PM
  #164
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While I think some of our prospects should be inserted into the lineup sooner, I think we see some other young kids get put into lineups early and have a really good season, but then they regress. Look at Sean Couturier from last year, he was insane as a teenager. This year he hasn't been as effective and it's unknown whether or not his development would be 'stunted' if he hadn't been up the same amount of time. We see this with teams like Columbus and Edmonton who don't necessarily rush players because they have no choice, but the expectations are out of this world.
Nobody is advocating for 18 year olds in the lineup.

But 3-years of college + 2-3 years of AHL hockey is overkill

21-22 is fine to start an NHL career.

I think the silly part is when Wings fans act like we "overripen" players for their benefit.

We overripen players for the benefit of the old vets who we sign to 2-year extensions.

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03-17-2013, 07:45 PM
  #165
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While I think some of our prospects should be inserted into the lineup sooner, I think we see some other young kids get put into lineups early and have a really good season, but then they regress. Look at Sean Couturier from last year, he was insane as a teenager. This year he hasn't been as effective and it's unknown whether or not his development would be 'stunted' if he hadn't been up the same amount of time. We see this with teams like Columbus and Edmonton who don't necessarily rush players because they have no choice, but the expectations are out of this world.
Matt Niskanen. He's actually not far off as a solid Kindl comparison. Former late 1st round pick and everything.

At 22, in his sophomore year, he had a hefty 35 point season and looked like the next top pairing defender in Dallas for years to come. Never touched that level, even close, again.

He's got a nice niche going in the high flying offense of Pittsburgh, but he's only a 20 point guy playing middle minutes. So what I'm saying is Niskanen has almost 400 NHL games at age 26, but he hasn't really progressed any more than where Kindl is at right now, despite looking far better, far sooner at an early age.

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03-17-2013, 07:45 PM
  #166
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I question the hockey wisdom of anyone who thinks Kronwall-Ericsson is a good first pairing in the NHL.

Ericsson has quickly become the most overrated player on the Red Wings. People act like he's some sort of defensive monster back there
Quick edit there. I saw your original post, which described Ericsson as a suitable third-pairing defenseman who is playing on the top pairing because of a lack of defensive talent on the team. No doubt that's actually what you think, but you knew that people would call an idiot for voicing it aloud.

Ericsson has had an excellent season, but I won't argue with you; I long ago learned that you stick to your dumbfounding vision of reality no matter what evidence others throw in your face.

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03-17-2013, 08:01 PM
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Quick edit there. I saw your original post, which described Ericsson as a suitable third-pairing defenseman who is playing on the top pairing because of a lack of defensive talent on the team. No doubt that's actually what you think, but you knew that people would call an idiot for voicing it aloud.

Ericsson has had an excellent season, but I won't argue with you; I long ago learned that you stick to your dumbfounding vision of reality no matter what evidence others throw in your face.
So, you just responded to me for what then?

Where is your evidence that Ericsson is more than what I said he is?

Is it that he's +1? 5th among red wings defensmen?
Is it his 10 points? 2nd among RW defensemen, but hardly a lot given his icetime with Z and Datsyuk.

Is it the 10 minor penalties?
Is it 19 shots on goal (6th on the team D)

Is it the 24 blocked shots? 20 less than Kronwall and 4th on the team?

What are the stats you have that show me that Ericsson is anything more than a solid 3rd pairing defenseman who is playing up the lineup because of our bad depth?

Is it his $3M salary?

All Ericsson does out there, when he's playing well, is provide a stay-at-home defenseman for the offensive guy he plays next to.


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03-17-2013, 08:07 PM
  #168
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I was talking about Lashoff, are you talking about Kindl? I agree with that take, and I actually don't recall criticizing Kindl's breakout pass, at least not this year. I think it's been fine. I'm pretty happy about Kindl's play these days, glad to see he's gotten to this point. I don't really have any major complaints about him right now, just keep on keepin' on, Kuba, you're making me a believer.

Though I, like all of us, wish we had another top-pairing defenseman, I'm fine with Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Lashoff, and Kindl right now. I think these guys are playing well, even if some of them have been in too big of a role for parts or all of the season. Beyond them, Huskins is filler, Cola is an 'incomplete,' Quincey is garbage, and I don't see where White fits on this team anymore, despite his RH shot - all recent memories of him are either sucking or being a healthy scratch.
I must have misread your original post, I think we are pretty much on the same page then.

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03-17-2013, 08:22 PM
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So, you just responded to me for what then?

Where is your evidence that Ericsson is more than what I said he is?

Is it that he's +1? 5th among red wings defensmen?
Is it his 10 points? 2nd among RW defensemen, but hardly a lot given his icetime with Z and Datsyuk.

Is it the 10 minor penalties?
Is it 19 shots on goal (6th on the team D)

Is it the 24 blocked shots? 20 less than Kronwall and 4th on the team?

What are the stats you have that show me that Ericsson is anything more than a solid 3rd pairing defenseman who is playing up the lineup because of our bad depth?

Is it his $3M salary?

All Ericsson does out there, when he's playing well, is provide a stay-at-home defenseman for the offensive guy he plays next to.
How about how he looks out there? He's playing much better than a 3rd pairing guy, though I don't think I'd go as far as to call him a legit top pariring D. His positioning has been very good this year, and he keeps his assignment better than most of our D. He plays a lot more physical than he used to and you see him rough guys up in front of the net or look to hit a lot more than you used to.

As far as your last line goes. Same could be said about a lot of guys in this league that are more than bottom pairing guys. Don't really see how that makes him less of a defensemen at all. That's what Brad Stuart was for us for years too.

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03-17-2013, 08:29 PM
  #170
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the way I see Big E is that he has improved on his prior play quite a bit this season and seems to be handling the increased responsibility quite well. He is definitely not a true top pairing dman, but we paid him to be a 2nd pairing dman and at least to me he is living up to that expectation this season and worth the salary we are giving him.

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03-17-2013, 08:39 PM
  #171
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How about how he looks out there? He's playing much better than a 3rd pairing guy, though I don't think I'd go as far as to call him a legit top pariring D. His positioning has been very good this year, and he keeps his assignment better than most of our D. He plays a lot more physical than he used to and you see him rough guys up in front of the net or look to hit a lot more than you used to.

As far as your last line goes. Same could be said about a lot of guys in this league that are more than bottom pairing guys. Don't really see how that makes him less of a defensemen at all. That's what Brad Stuart was for us for years too.

Meh.

People are being fanboys when it comes to Jonny E. He's played well for the most part.

But he's also had his fair share of horrible plays. He's not some great defensive stalwart.

He's a big guy who skates well for a big guy. His physical play remains inconsistent. He doesn't block shots much despite all that PK time.
He makes a decent first pass, but he's nearly useless in the offensive zone (and has been his entire NHL career).

He's a first-pairing defenseman the way Doug Murray was a first pairing defensemen or the way Freddie Olausson or Dmitri Bykov were first pairing defensemen.

Because of who they are paired up with.

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03-17-2013, 08:42 PM
  #172
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What defensemen doesn't make horrible plays? Ericsson went from pretty bad the last few seasons to pretty good this season. That's a huge plus for the Wings regardless of if he's a #1 or #4.

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03-17-2013, 08:45 PM
  #173
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Meh.

People are being fanboys when it comes to Jonny E. He's played well for the most part.

But he's also had his fair share of horrible plays. He's not some great defensive stalwart.

He's a big guy who skates well for a big guy. His physical play remains inconsistent. He doesn't block shots much despite all that PK time.
He makes a decent first pass, but he's nearly useless in the offensive zone (and has been his entire NHL career).

He's a first-pairing defenseman the way Doug Murray was a first pairing defensemen or the way Freddie Olausson or Dmitri Bykov were first pairing defensemen.

Because of who they are paired up with.
Your right, and that's perfect.

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03-17-2013, 08:57 PM
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Meh.

People are being fanboys when it comes to Jonny E. He's played well for the most part.

But he's also had his fair share of horrible plays. He's not some great defensive stalwart.

He's a big guy who skates well for a big guy. His physical play remains inconsistent. He doesn't block shots much despite all that PK time.
He makes a decent first pass, but he's nearly useless in the offensive zone (and has been his entire NHL career).

He's a first-pairing defenseman the way Doug Murray was a first pairing defensemen or the way Freddie Olausson or Dmitri Bykov were first pairing defensemen.

Because of who they are paired up with.
Hey I agree with you in the sense that I think he's a big overrated on this board, and he has looked good mostly due to the fact that our D core is the worst it has been in a long time.

I just think it's unfair to see he's still only a 3rd pairing D. I think he's proved he is better than that. I think he could be a good middle-pairing guy who can play some solid PK minutes even on a pretty good team.

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03-17-2013, 08:58 PM
  #175
Spitfire11
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I dunno...

If Ericsson is only a 3rd pair D, Kronwall sucks defensively, Quincey is **** and beyond replaceable, Smith a disappointment, and Lashoff the worst defenseman in the league...

How on earth is this team 11th in GAA?

I mean they have "5 million" Howard in net, and incompetent Babcock coaching this mess.

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