HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Datsyuk is the best 2 way player in the world

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-17-2013, 07:27 PM
  #376
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
I'm genuinely curious.

Datsyuk is pretty much a consensus top 5 player, some are even convinced that he's on the level of Stamkos, Crosby etc. Toews on the other hand is not really considered that level and I often hear the ridiculous claim that 'he's overrated because he's Canadian'.

- Both players have nearly identical production since 2009-2010 (Toews 227 points in 243 games, Datsyuk 226 points in 234 games)
- Both are elite defensively

Now, if you think that Datsyuk is the better player that's fine, but this perception that he's far and away the better player that I see among many users here is perplexing. Everything I've seen of the two recently suggests they're similar caliber players, and the numbers seem to back that up. Datsyuk is flashier in general, but both are players that seem to do everything right, shut down top opposition players and hover around a point per game production.


This thread is NOT about who is the best two-way player in the World, it is NOT about how these guys stack up against Crosby, Malkin or Stamkos. This thread is specifically to discuss how close these two players really are, and why Datsyuk is given so much more respect.

Personally, for me if I have to give the edge to one of them I'd pick Toews, just given the fact that he won the Conn Smythe recently and has such a good reputation as a leader. Regardless though I'd say that the players are extremely close, and I think they're both in the tier right below guys like Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos.
i don't think datsyuk is "so much" better, but i think he is better, though not by a big margin.

i am a fan of toews and chicago more generally, and i would love to have him on my team. backlash against toews on this site is also very excessive and, imo, is based on a mindset that looks mostly at a player's point totals instead of how he affects the game and his team. toews' ability to control possession through 2 way play is more important to team success than putting up a bunch of points but allowing opponents to have the puck too much and to score too much.



main thing, imo, is that datsyuk is a better offensive player, and controls the play more. when datsyuk is on the ice, his team usually has the puck more and outshoots the opposition by quite a lot.


i'll also say that in both '11 and '12, datsyuk got injured while he was one of the top scorers in the league, and then returned while still injured so his points per game numbers look worse.

when he broke his wrist in '11 vs vancouver, he was on pace for 99-100p (39p in 32 games).

when he injured his knee in a collision with toews in '12, he had 46p in 44 games, which was after a very poor start (he said he was "awful" at the start of the season). in the 26 games between line changes (bertuzzi returned from injury and was much better, and played with datsyuk and franzen) and datsyuk's knee injury, he had 35p, was +21 and was rarely scored on at ES.

datsyuk had 3a in his next game in buffalo in 13 minutes (players were rested because they had to play again the next day), and he played several more games with a decreasing level of play before getting knee surgery. after his return, his skating was still weak through the playoffs and in WC. his speed was lacking and he fell down a lot. he couldn't elude defenders or protect the puck as usual.




i wonder why is toews considered significantly better than zetterberg?

zetterberg also has a conn smythe, which was clearly a superior performance to toews, should have won the selke in '08, has a better playoff record than toews, is also a captain, and is as good as toews offensively (and was quite a lot better).

zetterberg has 5 point per game seasons. toews has 0.

toews is a career -2 in the playoffs, whereas zetterberg is +38. toews has had 1 playoff at a point per game, whereas zetterberg has had 5.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Imo Datsyuk is a game changer and his defensive game is flawless, he's been leading the league in takeaways or finishing at the top for a few years now (3-5 i'd imagine). Toews also has the luxury of playing with arguably one of the best top 6's in the league so that helps his production.
no one's defensive game is flawless, and certainly not datsyuk's.

main flaw is he focuses too much on the puck. he is more offensive than defensive minded, and likes too attack the puck carrier rather than wait around a man who does not have the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
As a Wings fan, you know what scared me about Sakic? His wrist shot.

You know what scared me about Forsberg? Everything.
agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBootsie View Post
Doesn't do what? Score? Wasn't that Datsyuk's first goal in like 12 games?

Take the puck away from the other team? Datsyuk has one more "Takeaway" than Toews.

"Giveaways"? Toews ranked overall at 122 with 15, Dats at 22 with 23.

Not sure what your point is.
those kind of stats are counted differently in different arenas, so that comparison is almost meaningless.


some teams have played more games at home or more on road, but look at home vs road splits.

takeaways
NYI at home: 141
NYI on road: 66

chicago at home: 195
chicago on road: 94

calgary at home: 131
calgary on road: 54

DRW at home: 97
DRW on road: 65

LAK at home: 62
LAK on road: 67

pittsburgh at home: 56
pitsburgh on road: 84


those are generally consistent with stats from previous seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarry Curry View Post
I was merely trying to demonstrate flashier isn't always better.
You know Sakic was the better player right?
forsberg was better in his peak and prime, but sakic was far more durable.

almost all the DRW fans i know feared forsberg more than sakic.


bowman usually put his best defensive players (russian 5, lidstrom, chelios) on forsberg, not sakic. hitchcock did the same with hatcher carbonneau, matvichuk.

iirc, chelios was assigned to forsberg in '96 instead of sakic.


Last edited by nik jr: 03-17-2013 at 07:34 PM.
nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:29 PM
  #377
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBootsie View Post
Tackle? Lol
Well it wasn't a hockey play was it?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:30 PM
  #378
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 6,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I would argue the exact opposite. If Toews was Russian or Swedish, he would be MORE beloved. If Datsyuk was Canadian or American, he would be flatly called overrated. Otherwise, explain how a guy with zero 100 point or 40 goal seasons gets mentioned with Crosby and Stamkos. Oh yeah, he's defensive, like 698 other players who can't score 40 goals in a season.

People on this board like to say it is Canadians that get special love, when actually it is the opposite. Cripes, you would think Forsberg, Jagr and Datsyuk belong with Gretzky, Mario and Messier the way people overrate them all. Check the numbers. The numbers don't lie.

Toews is a better player that Datsyuk, or at least as good. Going forward, every team would choose Toews over Datsyuk. This board wouldn't.

Holy mother of god what a flat out absurd theory. If there's anything we know about hf it's that there is am anti north American bias, amirite? When are people going to stop talking about soft Americans and lazy Canadians? Thanks for the laugh it's good for the health.

Syckle78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  #379
The Nose
Registered User
 
The Nose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 8,231
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I would argue the exact opposite. If Toews was Russian or Swedish, he would be MORE beloved. If Datsyuk was Canadian or American, he would be flatly called overrated. Otherwise, explain how a guy with zero 100 point or 40 goal seasons gets mentioned with Crosby and Stamkos. Oh yeah, he's defensive, like 698 other players who can't score 40 goals in a season.

People on this board like to say it is Canadians that get special love, when actually it is the opposite. Cripes, you would think Forsberg, Jagr and Datsyuk belong with Gretzky, Mario and Messier the way people overrate them all. Check the numbers. The numbers don't lie.

Toews is a better player that Datsyuk, or at least as good. Going forward, every team would choose Toews over Datsyuk. This board wouldn't.
Well maybe that's because Toews is 10 years younger.

Very few players in the league have the ability to dominate like Datsyuk. Besides Crosby, there isn't a player I would take over Datsyuk in a must-win game.

The Nose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:33 PM
  #380
redwingsrock
Registered User
 
redwingsrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1975 View Post
In talking to friends about Datsyuk, I find that the people that played hockey growing up think highly of him and those that never played don't fully understand the praise. Anyway.

Amazing video of his game against the Oilers. I don't know how to embed, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZLcCTMKHBs
Thank you for posting this! I remember watching that last minute in the first and I literally felt bad for Smyth.

There are two plays alone in that video that demonstrate why, in my opinion, Datsyuk is the best 2 way forward in the game. Crosby isn't a slouch on defense and there are others like Toews who are also amazing defensive players but I have never seen anyone come close to the talent Datsyuk has for stealing the puck.

The best way I can put it is this:
Crosby goes into the corners with the puck and three players on him, I expect Crosby to still come away with the puck ---- a testament to his talent.

Datsyuk goes into the boards without the puck and three opposing players after the puck, I expect Datsyuk to come away with it.

redwingsrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:37 PM
  #381
MarleauApologist
#FireDougWilson
 
MarleauApologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,697
vCash: 500
You're supposed to watch the games and not the numbers.

Datsyuk>Toews

MarleauApologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:38 PM
  #382
MastuhNinks
Registered User
 
MastuhNinks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Iron Throne
Posts: 5,325
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I would argue the exact opposite. If Toews was Russian or Swedish, he would be MORE beloved. If Datsyuk was Canadian or American, he would be flatly called overrated. Otherwise, explain how a guy with zero 100 point or 40 goal seasons gets mentioned with Crosby and Stamkos. Oh yeah, he's defensive, like 698 other players who can't score 40 goals in a season.

People on this board like to say it is Canadians that get special love, when actually it is the opposite. Cripes, you would think Forsberg, Jagr and Datsyuk belong with Gretzky, Mario and Messier the way people overrate them all. Check the numbers. The numbers don't lie.

Toews is a better player that Datsyuk, or at least as good. Going forward, every team would choose Toews over Datsyuk. This board wouldn't.
Europeans dominated the "Hfboards favorite player tournament"
http://www.bracketmaker.com/tmenu.cf...B%20Tournament

Final 4 were all Europeans
6 of the final 8 were Europeans
12 of the final 16 were Europeans


To me I don't see where the "Canadians are overrated" thing comes from, it's dumb and offensive. If anything hf loves little-known Europeans from small market teams like, say, Martin Hanzal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great 88 View Post
You're supposed to watch the games and not the numbers.

Datsyuk>Toews
Weak and baseless argument. This is the problem, people are happy to just spew nonsense like this without actually expanding on their thoughts.

MastuhNinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:40 PM
  #383
aemoreira1981
Registered User
 
aemoreira1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 5,127
vCash: 500
I would say Datsyuk's puck control and stick handling is what biases people towards Pavel.

aemoreira1981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:46 PM
  #384
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
I don't know about that. Guess it would depend on the team and who they were facing. Pens would of beaten the flyers with Datsyuk last year, imo.
Datsyuk would have put up a .900 save percentage?

Beau Knows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:46 PM
  #385
DatsyukianDeke*
Dangle Dangle
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Giroux is certainly better than Datsyuk
Chicago fans mad jelly of Datsyuk still ? what a shame.

DatsyukianDeke* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:48 PM
  #386
Brent Burns
TROTZTROTZTROTZTROTZ
 
Brent Burns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Coming in hot
Posts: 6,630
vCash: 500
Tangibles

Brent Burns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:48 PM
  #387
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 6,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Europeans dominated the "Hfboards favorite player tournament"
http://www.bracketmaker.com/tmenu.cf...B%20Tournament

Final 4 were all Europeans
6 of the final 8 were Europeans
12 of the final 16 were Europeans


To me I don't see where the "Canadians are overrated" thing comes from, it's dumb and offensive. If anything hf loves little-known Europeans from small market teams like, say, Martin Hanzal.

Weak and baseless argument. This is the problem, people are happy to just spew nonsense like this without actually expanding on their thoughts.
You use some trolled bracket where Crosby loses to Whitney as evidence of something. Then accuse someone else of spewing nonsense. Seems legit.

Syckle78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:50 PM
  #388
Frank the Tank
Passing the Torch
 
Frank the Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,699
vCash: 500
Also wanted to add that Toews has the better individual hardware:

Conn Smythe + Olympics Top Forward > 3 Selkes + Lady Byng

Frank the Tank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:51 PM
  #389
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 6,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Datsyuk would have put up a .900 save percentage?
Yup, he's that same good.

Syckle78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:53 PM
  #390
MastuhNinks
Registered User
 
MastuhNinks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Iron Throne
Posts: 5,325
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
You use some trolled bracket where Crosby loses to Whitney as evidence of something. Then accuse someone else of spewing nonsense. Seems legit.
What do you mean trolled bracket? It was voted on by the members of the poll board. If people like Whitney more than Crosby it's not trolling, that's their opinion. Clearly there isn't a pro-Canada bias considering the Europeans were clearly more favoured by the general populace of the board.

My point actually had an argument with evidence and data to back it up, the other user I quoted just basically said, "If you disagree with me you're wrong cause I said so."

MastuhNinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:56 PM
  #391
Saku11
Registered User
 
Saku11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,379
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
If there's anything we know about hf it's that there is am anti north American bias, amirite?
These days, there is absolutely anti Canadian bias here at HF.And im European and admit it.

Saku11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:57 PM
  #392
Dragon Priest
Elvenlegions
 
Dragon Priest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Metalheaven
Country: United States
Posts: 2,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
In a seven game series, I take Datsyuk over Crosby.
In a seven game series, I take Crosby over Datsyuk.

Dragon Priest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 07:57 PM
  #393
Trance Kuja
Global Moderator
 
Trance Kuja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth.
Country: United States
Posts: 47,842
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
Also wanted to add that Toews has the better individual hardware:
Datsyuk has better hardware.

Trance Kuja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:02 PM
  #394
youvegotit
Registered User
 
youvegotit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I would argue the exact opposite. If Toews was Russian or Swedish, he would be MORE beloved. If Datsyuk was Canadian or American, he would be flatly called overrated. Otherwise, explain how a guy with zero 100 point or 40 goal seasons gets mentioned with Crosby and Stamkos. Oh yeah, he's defensive, like 698 other players who can't score 40 goals in a season.

People on this board like to say it is Canadians that get special love, when actually it is the opposite. Cripes, you would think Forsberg, Jagr and Datsyuk belong with Gretzky, Mario and Messier the way people overrate them all. Check the numbers. The numbers don't lie.

Toews is a better player that Datsyuk, or at least as good. Going forward, every team would choose Toews over Datsyuk. This board wouldn't.

Not so sure I agree or even the players who play the game...

2011-2012 NHL Players Poll: Smartest Player (Datsyuk), Most Difficult to Play Against (Datsyuk), Hardest to Take the Puck From (Datsyuk), Most Difficult to Stop (Datsyuk), Cleanest Player (Datsyuk), Toughest Forward to Play Against (Datsyuk)

youvegotit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:02 PM
  #395
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 23,495
vCash: 500
I don't think he is much better, he is slightly better still in my opinion. Toews has a long career to go though and is no doubt a great player.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:03 PM
  #396
Chris Hansen
THESE LEGS ARE FRESH
 
Chris Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck4life16 View Post
Datsyuk multiple serlk trophy and two cup rings Toews conn smyth trophy zero serlk 1 cup ring
Damn. If only Toews had one of those serlk trophies on his resume.

Chris Hansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:04 PM
  #397
Nedved
Registered User
 
Nedved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,790
vCash: 500
What is Datsyuk's label?

Is he more of a two way forward? A play maker? A guy that can play in all situations? elite play maker? sniper? leader? fighter? all of the above?

Just curious as what category he falls under. I would put him in two way forward being slightly better than J. Toews but not quite as talented as Crosby.

Nedved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:04 PM
  #398
Saku11
Registered User
 
Saku11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,379
vCash: 500
In a seven game series.I take atleast Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin over Crosby.

Saku11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:04 PM
  #399
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 23,495
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Damn. If only Toews had one of those serlk trophies on his resume.
He could all he has to do is make it up, that Trophy doesn't exist to my knowledge.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-17-2013, 08:05 PM
  #400
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 23,495
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetCluttered22 View Post
Not so sure I agree or even the players who play the game...

2011-2012 NHL Players Poll: Smartest Player (Datsyuk), Most Difficult to Play Against (Datsyuk), Hardest to Take the Puck From (Datsyuk), Most Difficult to Stop (Datsyuk), Cleanest Player (Datsyuk), Toughest Forward to Play Against (Datsyuk)
But why take their word for it?

Clearly Colorado and Vancouver not participating completely ruined this.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:30 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.