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Old
03-17-2013, 09:26 PM
  #776
opendoor
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It's not a valid question, and therefore can't be answered. You're comparing a team outcome with a individual achievement.
It can't be answered because no cup winners have had centers like Hodgson in their top 6.

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03-17-2013, 09:26 PM
  #777
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It is amazing the differing views on this board of Hodgson and Schroeder. I realize that Schroeder is in the Canucks organization and Hodgson isn't anymore, but still, pretty incredible. You get jumped on this board if you criticize Schroeder or praise Hodgson. One time I did both and I had a bad time.

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:28 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
It can't be answered because no cup winners have had centers like Hodgson in their top 6.
I disagree. Hodgson with different wingers and an all round better team looks quite a bit different than Hodgson playing on a lottery pick team. There are plenty of cup winners who have had centres look like Hodgson at the equivalent stage of player and team development.

 
Old
03-17-2013, 09:31 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I disagree. Hodgson with different wingers and an all round better team looks quite a bit different than Hodgson playing on a lottery pick team. There are plenty of cup winners who have had centres look like Hodgson at the equivalent stage of player and team development.
Agree 100%.

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03-17-2013, 09:33 PM
  #780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgy View Post
It is amazing the differing views on this board of Hodgson and Schroeder. I realize that Schroeder is in the Canucks organization and Hodgson isn't anymore, but still, pretty incredible. You get jumped on this board if you criticize Schroeder or praise Hodgson. One time I did both and I had a bad time.
I praise both because both are very good players who, unfortunately, have been mishandled by this organization.

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03-17-2013, 09:34 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I disagree. Hodgson with different wingers and an all round better team looks quite a bit different than Hodgson playing on a lottery pick team. There are plenty of cup winners who have had centres look like Hodgson at the equivalent stage of player and team development.
Not only that, but the Canucks never really tried Hodgson out at wing. To me, it makes a lot more sense to play a young player in a less desirable position over the short term instead of making a knee-jerk reaction and trading the player.

While the situations are not identical, this is what Boston did with Seguin. The Bruins have/had incredible centre depth (Bergeron, Krejci, Kelly, Peverley, etc) but that did precipitate a Seguin trade.

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03-17-2013, 09:37 PM
  #782
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I praise both because both are very good players who, unfortunately, have been mishandled by this organization.
I agree that Hodgson was mishandled, not sure about Schroeder. For the most part, he hasn't been great offensively for the past 5 years. Eventually you have to recognize that it isn't a particular coach or set of circumstances holding back a player, but instead, their own skill set.

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:40 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I disagree. Hodgson with different wingers and an all round better team looks quite a bit different than Hodgson playing on a lottery pick team. There are plenty of cup winners who have had centres look like Hodgson at the equivalent stage of player and team development.
But that's not the issue. Hodgson wanted (or demanded depending on whom you believe) top 6 ice time right now. If he was to stay on the Canucks he'd have to be given 2nd line C ice time even with a healthy Kesler. A team that has designs on winning the cup cannot have a player at his current abilities getting the defensive responsibilities that a top 6 player must handle. A supposed elite team simply cannot have a top 6 center who they have to shelter or build their entire lineup around to overcome his weaknesses.

He may be able to improve over time to the point where he can be a good enough 2 way player to be a top 6 center on a great team but he's not there yet.

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03-17-2013, 09:45 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
But that's not the issue. Hodgson wanted (or demanded depending on whom you believe) top 6 ice time right now. If he was to stay on the Canucks he'd have to be given 2nd line C ice time even with a healthy Kesler. A team that has designs on winning the cup cannot have a player at his current abilities getting the defensive responsibilities that a top 6 player must handle. A supposed elite team simply cannot have a top 6 center who they have to shelter or build their entire lineup around to overcome his weaknesses.

He may be able to improve over time to the point where he can be a good enough 2 way player to be a top 6 center on a great team but he's not there yet.
Sedin....

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:45 PM
  #785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I disagree. Hodgson with different wingers and an all round better team looks quite a bit different than Hodgson playing on a lottery pick team. There are plenty of cup winners who have had centres look like Hodgson at the equivalent stage of player and team development.
What's wrong with Vanek and Pomminville? They're both bonafide 1st liners and Poms is a pretty solid 2 way guy.

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03-17-2013, 09:55 PM
  #786
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What's wrong with Vanek and Pomminville? They're both bonafide 1st liners and Poms is a pretty solid 2 way guy.
His point is valid that the entire Sabre's team is one of the worst in the league.

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03-17-2013, 10:01 PM
  #787
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What were we supposed to do with a guy who was asked to play wing by the coach and goes out and plays center anyways causing a goal against? Thats just one example, very talented player, horrible employee.

Kassian is a great prospect that fills our needs much better. Right now it is kind of tough, but long term Kass is a far rarer asset. Its like asking if you would rather have Lucic or Seguin, it really depends on where you team is at, we need a Kassian more than a top line center, I'm ok with that.

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03-17-2013, 10:23 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Whale View Post
What were we supposed to do with a guy who was asked to play wing by the coach and goes out and plays center anyways causing a goal against? Thats just one example, very talented player, horrible employee.

Kassian is a great prospect that fills our needs much better. Right now it is kind of tough, but long term Kass is a far rarer asset. Its like asking if you would rather have Lucic or Seguin, it really depends on where you team is at, we need a Kassian more than a top line center, I'm ok with that.
Fill our needs? At what part do we need Kassian on this team right now? We have plenty of pluggers in Pinizotto, Weise and Sesito... WHAT WE DON'T HAVE... is a center..

You know your team is poop when Ebbett and Maxim Lappiere is your number 2 and 3 centers.

This is where many people are misinformed... just because that arrogant GM of ours say Kassian fills our need and Hodgson doesn't, it doesn't mean this is true. The only reason he is still saying that is to save face.

Fact stands, we lost this trade. We need Hodgson centering a line then a plug like Kassian.

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:23 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Because it's how you win.
yup. we are real defensive all right...

lets in 13 goals against detriot in last 2 games.

we are sooooo good on defense....

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:38 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
His point is valid that the entire Sabre's team is one of the worst in the league.
They're actually okay at even strength. Just atrocious on special teams.

Anyway, to pull out advanced stats for two Buffalo centers:

Player 1: Corsi: -2.73, Offensive zone start: 51.7%, Offensive zone finish: 51.4%, Corsi relative to quality of competition: 0.921

Player 2: Corsi: -4.67, Offensive zone start: 50.0%, Offensive zone finish: 52.4%, Corsi relative to quality of competition: 0.908

Player 1 is slightly better than player 2, but it is pretty close overall. Player 1 is Hodgson, player 2 is Ennis. Same draft year too.

Basically Hodgson is a slightly better version of Tyler Ennis. Solid top 6 player, but not a true #1 center for a team with Cup aspirations.

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #791
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Why are we still going on about this guy,,move on people gezzz.

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:53 PM
  #792
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This is the kind of **** up that gets GM's fired and costs teams cup chances.

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03-17-2013, 11:18 PM
  #793
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Because that is how the last 2 Stanley Cup winners have won. And it is just as important as offense if not more so.

Ever hear the adage:

"Offense wins games, Defense wins championships"



LOL we haven't been a defensive team, we have relied on offense and that offense has been shutdown, leaving us inferior defensively. And ultimately on the outside looking in.
Yeah, let's base our team-building process on some adages and folk sayings.

What about the adage, 'the best defense is a good offense!' I've heard that adage too. Let's build an all-offense team instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I disagree. Hodgson with different wingers and an all round better team looks quite a bit different than Hodgson playing on a lottery pick team. There are plenty of cup winners who have had centres look like Hodgson at the equivalent stage of player and team development.
I think this whole argument of 'Hodgson wouldn't be scoring at nearly the same rate as a Sedin if he were on the Canucks' is really missing the point. Obviously, given a lesser role behind the Twins here, Hodgson would put up lesser point totals. But that's completely ignoring the benefit of having a player with the potential to be a ~PPG player in a lesser role.

Basically, you could put Ebbett or Schroeder on that Buffalo top line all year, and i guarantee you they will never touch the production Hodgson gets out of that assignment. They just don't have the capability. To have a player capable of PPG pace on a 2nd/3rd line is a HUGE difference maker, regardless of how much it shows up in the stats. In both acting as an insurance policy with upward mobility in the lineup...and in the fact that they're going to be able to produce at a higher rate than a lesser substitute player, even if that actual end tally is a relatively low difference of say 5g and 15pts for that individual player.

Hodgson was 'sheltered' here, yes...but you can't just shelter a player into that kind of production. If you could, don't you think AV/Gillis would've thought about sheltering Schroeder or even Kassian into huge production?

And the reality is...in Buffalo, he's Mr.Everything with that team. And realistically he's way over his head in terms of defensive role and responsibility. But there's nothing else there to insulate him at all. In Vancouver, he wouldn't be nearly so exposed. You couldn't expose him that much if you tried, given the other talent that would be around him here. So you'd get less production in total, sure...but you'd also have production at a high rate in whatever role, and you wouldn't have the same defensive shortcomings either. There would be time to grow into the role. And in a lesser role last year...Hodgson was a heck of a lot more dangerous looking offensively than Kassian has been. And it's certainly not as though Kassian hasn't been a defensively liability much of the time as well.



As for the other aspect that is really troubling about this deal:

When i think about the timing of this deal originally...it still looks as poorly timed as it did the day it was done. We swapped a productive offensive player for a guy who contributed essentially nothing in a playoff run where we couldn't score goals.

And even now...we're left waiting on this promise of 'one day Kassian will be the exact player we need right now'. Which is great if it pans out...but it's also fairly illogical. Because if we're talking another 2-3 years before he really 'figures it out'...we're going to have 'the exact player we need right now'...'3 years from now'. And coincidentally...in that same timeframe 2-3 years down the line, the Sedins are going to be declining, or potentially even leaving back to Sweden. At which point...what we'll need most is someone with the potential to be a 1st line Center.

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:30 PM
  #794
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^wut he said.

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03-17-2013, 11:33 PM
  #795
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Ditto.

 
Old
03-18-2013, 12:02 AM
  #796
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Sources say the Sabres aren't going to move high-scoring winger Thomas Vanek or top prospects Marcus Foligno, Cody Hodgson or Alexander Sulzer. Nobody would take Tyler Myers' contract, but every player is up for discussion.
That is from the Toronto Sun

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03-18-2013, 12:04 AM
  #797
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Sorry - which is it - there's a list of players they won't move, or "every player is up for discussion"?

 
Old
03-18-2013, 12:11 AM
  #798
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It's a lot easier to say the trade made no sense if you ignore the fact that Hodgson, his family, and his agent had no interest in him being brought along slowly with the Canucks. Anyone basing an argument on a scenario where the Canucks would've used Hodgson as a 3rd line C this year is simply ignoring reality. Of course he'd be better than the crap the Canucks have filling in from the 4th line/AHL team, but he wasn't willing to play a depth role on a healthy Canucks team.

Hodgson is in the exact situation his camp was looking for. He got to join a bad team that's willing to throw money around with some talented wingers but one of the worst sets of centers in the league. Now he can play 1 way hockey, play with some talented guys and put up some points, and cash in when his ELC expires. It's a shame it couldn't work in Vancouver, but if every young player had the same demands as him then good teams wouldn't be able to develop players.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:12 AM
  #799
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Damn this is a painful thread to follow.

I know a lot of you have the answers, and that the Canucks screwed up.

Reality: the jury is still out and will be for years. Kassian MAY be a better option for the Canucks. alternately, maybe they should have kept Hodgson. But thanks for your educated (?) opinion.

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03-18-2013, 12:13 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
It's a lot easier to say the trade made no sense if you ignore the fact that Hodgson, his family, and his agent had no interest in him being brought along slowly with the Canucks. Anyone basing an argument on a scenario where the Canucks would've used Hodgson as a 3rd line C this year is simply ignoring reality. Of course he'd be better than the crap the Canucks have filling in from the 4th line/AHL team, but he wasn't willing to play a depth role on a healthy Canucks team.

Hodgson is in the exact situation his camp was looking for. He got to join a bad team that's willing to throw money around with some talented wingers but one of the worst sets of centers in the league. Now he can play 1 way hockey, play with some talented guys and put up some points, and cash in when his ELC expires. It's a shame it couldn't work in Vancouver, but if every young player had the same demands as him then good teams wouldn't be able to develop players.
damn, that's a much better response than my sarcasm. Well put.

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