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kindl 27 points, + 49 over a 82 game season

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:20 PM
  #176
kuick
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
I dunno...

If Ericsson is only a 3rd pair D, Kronwall sucks defensively, Quincey is **** and beyond replaceable, Smith a disappointment, and Lashoff the worst defenseman in the league...

How on earth is this team 11th in GAA?

I mean they have "5 million" Howard in net, and incompetent Babcock coaching this mess.


Helps, but nah.

Give credit where credit is due. I thought Babcock's 'replace Lidstrom by committee' would fall flat, but tons of guys have stepped up. Ericsson and Kindl especially have taken huge strides to fill some holes.

If we were a real contender right now, they don't get this kind of ice time. It's that simple.

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03-17-2013, 09:26 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
I dunno...

If Ericsson is only a 3rd pair D, Kronwall sucks defensively, Quincey is **** and beyond replaceable, Smith a disappointment, and Lashoff the worst defenseman in the league...

How on earth is this team 11th in GAA?

I mean they have "5 million" Howard in net, and incompetent Babcock coaching this mess.
Defensive center named Datsyuk.
Defensive center named Zetterberg.

And then a coaching scheme that says "off the glass and out," just like Jimmy H explained the other day.

And defensively, Quincey is much better than he was last year (but, of course, it comes at the expense of any offense he was counted on to provide)

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03-17-2013, 09:28 PM
  #178
Spitfire11
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Just needed to point out all the posters on here hating on Babcock have to admit there's no way they think this defense + Howard is above league average and not overachieving....right?

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:29 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
I dunno...

If Ericsson is only a 3rd pair D, Kronwall sucks defensively, Quincey is **** and beyond replaceable, Smith a disappointment, and Lashoff the worst defenseman in the league...

How on earth is this team 11th in GAA?

I mean they have "5 million" Howard in net, and incompetent Babcock coaching this mess.
Exactly. This is a post worth reading and letting it sink in.
Babs sucks
E is not a #1 dman
Lashoff is a #6 AT BEST after 24 games
Andersson is an AHL scrub
We need a real goalie

Yet we are very good at keeping the puck out of the net. And we've only gotten better over the past dozen or so games. It's good to see there's another person who can appreciate the one true strength of this mediocre team. Imagine if we could acquire a true power forward to replace Mule since he'll never play that game again.

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03-17-2013, 09:47 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Exactly. This is a post worth reading and letting it sink in.
Babs sucks
E is not a #1 dman
Lashoff is a #6 AT BEST after 24 games
Andersson is an AHL scrub
We need a real goalie

Yet we are very good at keeping the puck out of the net. And we've only gotten better over the past dozen or so games. It's good to see there's another person who can appreciate the one true strength of this mediocre team. Imagine if we could acquire a true power forward to replace Mule since he'll never play that game again.
Yeah. We're a defensive juggernaut.

Jesus. Unless you're blind, you know that the defense is playing much more conservative hockey since all the injuries piled up.
As a result, our goal scoring has also suffered (the recent slumps from Datsyuk and Zetterberg)

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:50 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
Just needed to point out all the posters on here hating on Babcock have to admit there's no way they think this defense + Howard is above league average and not overachieving....right?
LOL.

Right.
We need Abdelkader and Cleary on Datsyuk's wing... that's an example of good coaching.

Or Tatar not being considered for a scoring line role despite constantly being a dangerous forward. Another example of good coaching.

Or Lashoff and Kronwall watching their plus/minus plummet, game after game, being out on the ice together... another example of good coaching.

I think its cute how you the Babcock lovers come out of the woodwork after a couple of victories.

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:21 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Where is your evidence that Ericsson is more than what I said he is?
Jumping in here because I find this curious. You said Ericsson is a 3rd-pairing guy? LOL.


Quote:
Is it that he's +1? 5th among red wings defensmen?
Is it his 10 points? 2nd among RW defensemen, but hardly a lot given his icetime with Z and Datsyuk.

Is it the 10 minor penalties?
Is it 19 shots on goal (6th on the team D)

Is it the 24 blocked shots? 20 less than Kronwall and 4th on the team?
Here's one for ya....

Ericsson's stats on an 82-game pace, in his first year on the top pair, with 3 years experience:

32 points
+3
60 shots
120 hits
76 blocked shots
32 minor penalties

Now here's the last guy to have filled the same role Ericsson, on a better Wings team, with a better defense partner, over 4 years, initially with 8 years experience, averaged over 82 games:

21 points
+3
122 shots
185 hits
127 blocked shots
14 minor penalties

That's a guy whom you treasured and was agreed by all to be a top-pairing defenseman. Now, Stuarts stats are better (though you really shouldn't be harping on Ericsson's points or +/-, given that he's playing with Kronwall on a crappier team than Stuart did, with Lidstrom mind you, and is putting up the same or better numbers). But if that's the margin between a #2 guy and a #6 guy, then there are a plethora of NHL defenseman playing on the wrong pairing across the league.

Ideally, Ericsson isn't on the top pair. But he's clearly a good 2nd pairing defensive defenseman.

Captain Bob, much more than Babcock, has his favorites and his whipping boys

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:24 PM
  #183
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What defensemen doesn't make horrible plays?
Brad Stuart

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Old
03-18-2013, 01:00 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Brad Stuart
Especially not in Game 7s...

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Old
03-18-2013, 08:18 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Jumping in here because I find this curious. You said Ericsson is a 3rd-pairing guy? LOL.




Here's one for ya....

Ericsson's stats on an 82-game pace, in his first year on the top pair, with 3 years experience:

32 points
+3
60 shots
120 hits
76 blocked shots
32 minor penalties

Now here's the last guy to have filled the same role Ericsson, on a better Wings team, with a better defense partner, over 4 years, initially with 8 years experience, averaged over 82 games:

21 points
+3
122 shots
185 hits
127 blocked shots
14 minor penalties

That's a guy whom you treasured and was agreed by all to be a top-pairing defenseman. Now, Stuarts stats are better (though you really shouldn't be harping on Ericsson's points or +/-, given that he's playing with Kronwall on a crappier team than Stuart did, with Lidstrom mind you, and is putting up the same or better numbers). But if that's the margin between a #2 guy and a #6 guy, then there are a plethora of NHL defenseman playing on the wrong pairing across the league.

Ideally, Ericsson isn't on the top pair. But he's clearly a good 2nd pairing defensive defenseman.

Captain Bob, much more than Babcock, has his favorites and his whipping boys
The only difference, stastically, in Ericsson's game is that he has more secondary assists then he used to-- courtesy of his new linemates.

Stuart was a 3-4 defenseman here in Detroit. And his defensive stats (hits/blockedshots) are much better.

And he also plays more physically without taking penalties.

So Ericsson is a poor man's Stuart.

Which makes him what?

A third pairing defenseman.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:08 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob
People are being fanboys when it comes to Jonny E. He's played well for the most part.

But he's also had his fair share of horrible plays. He's not some great defensive stalwart.
That would describe roughly 100% of all defensemen at some point in their careers.

For what he brought last year, his contract was brutal. For what he's bringing this year (and hopefully from this point on), he's a freaking bargain.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:13 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
Just needed to point out all the posters on here hating on Babcock have to admit there's no way they think this defense + Howard is above league average and not overachieving....right?
I've been saying that Howard is at the very least a "good" goalie and on some nights elite. Top10 starter for sure. That + a couple of superstar centers will get you to this spot pretty much no matter what.

Couple that with our rather favorable schedule thus far and it was a recipe to overachieve slightly.

That said, I feel that Babcock has cost the team at least a few points due to his stubbornness in who plays on D earlier in the season and about lineups. But, as with anything in the West the past few years, those few points would mean almost nothing. We'd just be in the middle of the playoff race. Like we are now. Where on any given night one loss for them and one win for us can make everything change spots.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:18 PM
  #188
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I agree that Ericsson is average at maximum if we think his defensive game sense.

But you don't have to be the smartest guy on the planet, like Lidström was, if you have that superb reach and size Ericsson has. He compensates those game sense weaknesses because of his size. That's why Holland paid for him, you can't get that frame from anywhere for free, those kind of guys are all signed. He is not physical, but he uses his reach very cleverly, and that style is partially copied from Lidström.

He has the size of Pronger and is an average defenceman. Those attributes together make him a solid defensive TOP4 defenceman.

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Old
03-25-2013, 05:32 AM
  #189
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Kindl is now tied for the 3rd place in +/- among Dmen in the league. That is impressive.
He is tied for 2nd among our Dmen in points.

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Old
03-26-2013, 03:40 AM
  #190
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With a point tonight Kindl is 2nd on our team in points, just behind Kronwall.
Kindl is 3rd in the league in +/- among Dmen. Impressive.

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Old
03-26-2013, 08:57 AM
  #191
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Ever since I said Kindl is what he is and won't get any better he's gotten much better.

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03-26-2013, 09:03 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
With a point tonight Kindl is 2nd on our team in points, just behind Kronwall.
Kindl is 3rd in the league in +/- among Dmen. Impressive.
That's a little misleading, he's 13 points behind Kronwall. But Kindl is playing great, I'd rather have him out there in big defensive situations than most of our defensemen right now.

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03-26-2013, 09:38 AM
  #193
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It seems like Babcock's tough love on Kindl has really helped. Ever since he was a healthy scratch, he has turned on the jets. Maybe the most pleasant surprise on the wings this year

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03-26-2013, 09:44 AM
  #194
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That's a little misleading, he's 13 points behind Kronwall. But Kindl is playing great, I'd rather have him out there in big defensive situations than most of our defensemen right now.
Give Kindl regular icetime with Datsyuk or Zetterberg + first unit PP time and I think Kindl would come close to matching Kronner's production.

I'm still not sold on Kindl's defense. He's improving. But that first or second step of the oncoming forward always seem to catch him by surprise.

I think Kindl plays the blueline a lot like Lidstrom does (in the offensive zone). He's not as smart or polished, but there's something about him that looks familiar in a good way.

Kronwall creates his offense a different way. He's more of a rover who comes in deep from the point.

I'd like to see Kronwall-Kindl on the first unti PP for a few weeks and see what that does.

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03-26-2013, 09:44 AM
  #195
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It seems like Babcock's tough love on Kindl has really helped. Ever since he was a healthy scratch, he has turned on the jets. Maybe the most pleasant surprise on the wings this year
It seems like Babcock's tough love nearly ruined him as a prospect.

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03-26-2013, 09:48 AM
  #196
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Kid can play. I never thought he would develop into an NHL dman watching him shy away from contact and generally look ineffective in the admittedly limited action he saw over the past couple years (and into this one).

But, almost overnight, Kindl has become what we had all hoped he would become as a 1st round pick. A top4 dman. He is not a future HoFer or anything, but he is playing like a legit top4 and has been for 10 games.

Thats impressive.

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03-26-2013, 09:51 AM
  #197
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It seems like Babcock's tough love nearly ruined him as a prospect.
I don't think we will ever be able to definitely state whether Babcock's tough love or not had any impact on the new Kindl were seeing today as injuries did force him more permanently into the lineup, but we don't know at the same time if Babcock would have slotted him back in eventually if their weren't injuries and we were still winning games.

The important thing is that most players who eventually make it into something special usually seize the opportunities that are given to them, and while the opportunity for Kindl was excessive injuries to the blue line, the great thing is he so far seems to have seized that opportunity. I honestly thought Kindl was trade fodder for the past 3 years, I couldn't have been way more wrong. Watching all our dmen in the lineup right now, Kindl definitely has the highest ceiling out of all of them, I mean there has to be a reason he went 19th overall in the draft. Hopefully with more experience he can approach that ceiling, because while I never thought he'd ever surface as a top 4 in Detroit, the way he is playing lately I think with experience he can actually be a top pairing dman now

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03-26-2013, 10:16 AM
  #198
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I've been saying that Howard is at the very least a "good" goalie and on some nights elite. Top10 starter for sure. That + a couple of superstar centers will get you to this spot pretty much no matter what.

Couple that with our rather favorable schedule thus far and it was a recipe to overachieve slightly.

That said, I feel that Babcock has cost the team at least a few points due to his stubbornness in who plays on D earlier in the season and about lineups. But, as with anything in the West the past few years, those few points would mean almost nothing. We'd just be in the middle of the playoff race. Like we are now. Where on any given night one loss for them and one win for us can make everything change spots.
LOL how do you come up with this stuff? Overachieving? Babcock has COST us a few games? And which team is not "in the middle" of the playoff race? Seriously, besides Chicago's ridiculous start, which teams are not in the middle? There are no elite teams, just a bunch of mediocre ones. And the Wings happen to be playing like one of the better ones. I mean, come on man! LOL

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03-26-2013, 10:24 AM
  #199
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Ericsson and Kindl have developed into legitimate every night defensemen. We could argue all night about where they fit in but truth is they deserve to be out there based off of their play.
Quincey was playing solid shut down play before his injury.
Kronwall is putting up the offensive numbers we were hoping for.
Smith has been going through growing pains but has nothing more to learn at Grand Rapids so the only way to learn is as part of a bottom pair and second power play.
White has looked lost without Lidstrom. He has shown some signs of life since getting back in the lineup.
Lashoff. I rip him for not being an NHLer, but he has not been the worst player in the league.
Colaiacovo is a non entity due to injuries but seems ready to crack the lineup.

Do we need another defenseman? Frankly, I think we do, but if we acquire one without trading one who sits?
Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Quincey, Smith all have to play. If we add another blueliner it means White, Colaiacovo and Lashoff are odd men out.
All three are okay, White may even have an attitude and something to prove. Who do we add that is better?

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03-26-2013, 10:35 AM
  #200
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LOL how do you come up with this stuff? Overachieving? Babcock has COST us a few games? And which team is not "in the middle" of the playoff race? Seriously, besides Chicago's ridiculous start, which teams are not in the middle? There are no elite teams, just a bunch of mediocre ones. And the Wings happen to be playing like one of the better ones. I mean, come on man! LOL
I dunno. The same way I called that Kindl should absolutely be a regular dman and have been proven right? I know what I'm looking at when I watch hockey.

And Anaheim has separated itself nicely from the pack as well. That's just out west, the east has some separation too.

There are absolutely some elite teams. We're just not one of them. Wings have played good to okay the past three games. Great the first game with some Iffy calls. Then two games with occasional good play and some superb goaltending to bail us out. Oh man did it bail us out.

You have very selective memory. Babcock's lineup decisions and lines are very suspect. Until injuries forced him to play Kindl regularly, he was scratched often. He keeps trying to use Brunner on the point for PP's. He's put Cleary out there for overtime but benched Tatar completely. Abby's now stuck with Datsyuk for the end of time despite not producing anything at all for like 12 games in a row.

None of those choices cost the Wings a game? You are blind.


Last edited by Flowah: 03-26-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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