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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-17-2013, 04:00 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
I was confused for a second as to why this looked so familiar, until I realized it was my photo.

I had completely forgotten I still had that photobucket account from a few years back. That was when my collection was MUCH smaller than it is currently.

I've been meaning to do something like this again, but with 1 issue per picture, and set in multiple albums (likely by year/volume).

I'm searching for an easier way to do this though, as sites such as photobucket take forever to upload a massive amount of pictures. Understandable, I just wish there was a quicker way.

Anyways, back to the discussion. Didn't mean to go off topic.

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03-17-2013, 05:45 PM
  #377
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Selanne for me by a slim margin.

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03-17-2013, 06:16 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
So basically you're selling me that 60+ points Fedorov who plays with multiple HOFers (in Detroit) on the line and in the defense is - i don't know what..acceptable? - but Selanne's play with one and only fringe HOFer Kariya makes his numbers inflated?
Poor Fedorov, playing with quite talented Prospal who just came from PPG season with decent 30-goals scoring winger Sykora (who just came from the best offensive line in NHL), gets free pass again.

Come on! How do you explain 1998 season, when Selanne won Richard, was TOP10 in scoring and played on team where third best player on team got 36 points, while Kariya was injured for almost whole season???? That's Bure-esque (Florida) level of play!

Why team composition didn't matter when Fedorov played in Detroit stacked with HOFers, while Selanne played in freakin' Mickey Mouse team where except for Kariya played garbage of other teams?
When positions are swaped, miraculously Fedorov can't produce and it's all okey. On the other hand when Selanne was in Fedorov position on Olympic Line, his production didn't change and it didn't change when Kariya was out of roster and he had to play with Rucchin at the best.

Selanne produced excellent offensive output no matter of his team and teammates, can't say that about Fedorov.
Team composition, linemates , role, overall play inclduign defense all matters.

I have both guys very close but Fedorovs 2 way play and peak/prime in the early 90's (his 1st 6 years trumps Selanne's as his prime has interruptions in it)

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03-17-2013, 08:27 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but while we can defend fedorov's offensive coasting in detroit, i think anaheim fedorov is indefensible, no matter how we qualify the quality of his teammates/linemates.
Fedorov played just over a season in Anaheim. How long was Selanne in Colorado? How did Selanne perform offensively in Colorado? I'll give you a hint: he was seventh on the team in scoring among forwards and ninth overall (Rob Blake and JM Liles also ahead of him). One of the forwards ahead of him was Paul Kariya, who played 51 games. Another was third-liner Steve Konowalchuk. He outscored Adam Foote by two points.

Teemu Selanne has, since his return to Anaheim, been respectable (read:average to slightly above) defensively. But he has never been able to claim that he is/was a useful player if he's not scoring. In every single NHL season he played, Sergei Fedorov was good enough at things other than offense (defense, faceoffs, etc) to be considered a top-six forward, even if he had scored zero points. Selanne cannot claim that.

Also, how good were their respective teammates and linemates when Selanne was in Colorado compared to Fedorov's year in Anaheim? Forwards with 40+ and defensemen with 30+: Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Hejduk, Kariya, Blake, Liles, Foote playing with Selanne. Prospal, Sykora, Rucchin with Fedorov.

And the best part is that Selanne doesn't make the "40+" list, a mark Fedorov never fell below until his final season - when he went 11-22-33 in 52 games for Washington, playing on the second line in his familiar defensive role. It's only a 50-point season in a full 80 games, but he was still playing high-end defense at that point and I was honestly surprised there wasn't more of an effort by teams to sign him.

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i imagine that a younger, motivated fedorov would have been an excellent MVP type guy on a weak team, carrying them on his back.
You must have missed 1993-94, when Fedorov won the Hart trophy. You know, the one given out to the MVP?

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but yeah, a 34/36 year old fedorov had a lot more to give than he did, and if he'd been motivated, for sure fedorov, niedermayer, and a resurgent selanne would have been a treat to watch.
The big thing I think is this; Fedorov clicked really well with Coffey. What defenseman in the past 20 years has been compared to Coffey more than any other? Scott Niedermayer. Who hit their prime from 2003-2008? Scott Niedermayer. What team didn't have a legitimate top-line center after the Fedorov trade until 2007-08? Anaheim.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Yeah but according to Eva's arguments, Datsyuk should have ran away with the hart. The season was just 4 years ago, I dont recall the media claiming pavel as the best.
Actually, my Hart ballot would have looked like this:

1. Brodeur
2. Zetterberg
3. Ovechkin

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03-17-2013, 08:44 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov played just over a season in Anaheim. How long was Selanne in Colorado? How did Selanne perform offensively in Colorado? I'll give you a hint: he was seventh on the team in scoring among forwards and ninth overall (Rob Blake and JM Liles also ahead of him). One of the forwards ahead of him was Paul Kariya, who played 51 games. Another was third-liner Steve Konowalchuk. He outscored Adam Foote by two points.
Come on man, this is a big time twist. I always feel like when someone has to do these types of manipulations, it is because they don't have a good argument. Selanne's knee was trash that year with Colorado, he was benched for playoff games because his knee was so bad.


Which leads to:

Quote:
Teemu Selanne has, since his return to Anaheim, been respectable (read:average to slightly above) defensively. But he has never been able to claim that he is/was a useful player if he's not scoring. In every single NHL season he played, Sergei Fedorov was good enough at things other than offense (defense, faceoffs, etc) to be considered a top-six forward, even if he had scored zero points. Selanne cannot claim that.

Also, how good were their respective teammates and linemates when Selanne was in Colorado compared to Fedorov's year in Anaheim? Forwards with 40+ and defensemen with 30+: Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Hejduk, Kariya, Blake, Liles, Foote playing with Selanne. Prospal, Sykora, Rucchin with Fedorov.
He had surgery,missed a year and returned back to Anaheim, healthy. You have completely tried to bypass the injury to make him look worse than he was. Read the article.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/02/21...anne.html?_r=0

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03-17-2013, 09:14 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Come on man, this is a big time twist. I always feel like when someone has to do these types of manipulations, it is because they don't have a good argument. Selanne's knee was trash that year with Colorado, he was benched for playoff games because his knee was so bad.
And before that, when he was playing complete seasons in San Jose (following <PPG production at the end of his first stint with the Ducks), with seasons of <30 goals, and 54/64 points consecutively, what was going on there? Presumably playing "better" hockey than Fedorov was during those same years (the "60-70 pt years"), right?

When weighing how these seasons contribute to their "career/overall value" for the purposes of this discussion (since I think it's agreed that the peak thing goes to the Hart/Pearson/Selke year), it seems to me like Selanne gets "what if points" or mulligans for that stretch of ~5 seasons, while somehow Fedorov's play during the 5 year stretch at the onset of the DPE is somehow held against him... which is honestly very counter-intuitive to me; especially with post season play considered.

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03-17-2013, 09:40 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And before that, when he was playing complete seasons in San Jose (following <PPG production at the end of his first stint with the Ducks), with seasons of <30 goals, and 54/64 points consecutively, what was going on there? Presumably playing "better" hockey than Fedorov was during those same years (the "60-70 pt years"), right?

When weighing how these seasons contribute to their "career/overall value" for the purposes of this discussion (since I think it's agreed that the peak thing goes to the Hart/Pearson/Selke year), it seems to me like Selanne gets "what if points" or mulligans for that stretch of ~5 seasons, while somehow Fedorov's play during the 5 year stretch at the onset of the DPE is somehow held against him... which is honestly very counter-intuitive to me; especially with post season play considered.
Selanne's time away from Anaheim didn't count, because he had that knee injury. Then he had surgery and came back healthy and did well with two elite defensemen feeding him the puck. And we all know having talented teammates is a negative for career value, based on the arguments against Fedorov. So take away all of the years back in Anaheim from Selanne. As he had Niedermayer, sometimes Pronger, McDonald, Kunitz, and then came Getzlaf/Perry/Ryan/Koivu/Visnovsky.

We all know how knee injuries can affect a player. Just imagine what Steve Yzerman would have done with zero knee injuries? Does he get 170 points in 1988-89? Maybe 180? Possibly even 200? But this isn't a what-if world. The most we can do is account for games missed and say "hey, he was scoring at this pace, here's what he would have done had he kept scoring and not missed a game". Which, in Yzerman's case for 1987-88, would be 63 goals (2nd), 65 assists (9th), and 128 points (4th) if projected over 80 games. And he probably moves ahead of Fuhr and/or Gretzky (64GP) in Hart voting.

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03-17-2013, 09:45 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
He had surgery,missed a year and returned back to Anaheim, healthy.
Everyone else missed that year, too.

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03-17-2013, 10:22 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Actually, my Hart ballot would have looked like this:

1. Brodeur
2. Zetterberg
3. Ovechkin
I'm not sure if you're going by the "most valuable" or "best player" definition, but either way why would you rank Zetterberg above Ovechkin?

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03-17-2013, 11:06 PM
  #385
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I'm not sure if you're going by the "most valuable" or "best player" definition, but either way why would you rank Zetterberg above Ovechkin?
Zetterberg was the most important player on the best team in the league, was the best defensive forward in the league, and was the league's best even strength player. Ovechkin was excellent but a huge portion of his scoring came from the PP, and he was playing with Backstrom, Semin, and Green who also had huge seasons.

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03-17-2013, 11:09 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov played just over a season in Anaheim. How long was Selanne in Colorado? How did Selanne perform offensively in Colorado? I'll give you a hint: he was seventh on the team in scoring among forwards and ninth overall (Rob Blake and JM Liles also ahead of him). One of the forwards ahead of him was Paul Kariya, who played 51 games. Another was third-liner Steve Konowalchuk. He outscored Adam Foote by two points.

Teemu Selanne has, since his return to Anaheim, been respectable (read:average to slightly above) defensively. But he has never been able to claim that he is/was a useful player if he's not scoring. In every single NHL season he played, Sergei Fedorov was good enough at things other than offense (defense, faceoffs, etc) to be considered a top-six forward, even if he had scored zero points. Selanne cannot claim that.

Also, how good were their respective teammates and linemates when Selanne was in Colorado compared to Fedorov's year in Anaheim? Forwards with 40+ and defensemen with 30+: Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Hejduk, Kariya, Blake, Liles, Foote playing with Selanne. Prospal, Sykora, Rucchin with Fedorov.

And the best part is that Selanne doesn't make the "40+" list, a mark Fedorov never fell below until his final season - when he went 11-22-33 in 52 games for Washington, playing on the second line in his familiar defensive role. It's only a 50-point season in a full 80 games, but he was still playing high-end defense at that point and I was honestly surprised there wasn't more of an effort by teams to sign him.



You must have missed 1993-94, when Fedorov won the Hart trophy. You know, the one given out to the MVP?



The big thing I think is this; Fedorov clicked really well with Coffey. What defenseman in the past 20 years has been compared to Coffey more than any other? Scott Niedermayer. Who hit their prime from 2003-2008? Scott Niedermayer. What team didn't have a legitimate top-line center after the Fedorov trade until 2007-08? Anaheim.
what? how was any of that a response to my seemingly innocent argument that fedorov's 13 months in anaheim aren't above criticism?

this is what i meant earlier in the thread when i said that there are more constructive ways of making an argument for your player than attacking the other player.

and, for the record, i said "i imagine that a younger, motivated fedorov would have been an excellent MVP type guy on a weak team, carrying them on his back." the '94 wings were in now way a weak team. and yes, i certainly remember his MVP season.

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03-17-2013, 11:22 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
what? how was any of that a response to my seemingly innocent argument that fedorov's 13 months in anaheim aren't above criticism?
You said "Anaheim Fedorov is indefensible."

I have brought up Selanne's stint in Colorado multiple times, with no response other than "but he had a knee injury!"

If Fedorov's year in Anaheim counts against him, then Selanne's year in Colorado (the same year, incidentally) counts also.

It favors Selanne to NOT count those years.

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03-18-2013, 02:20 AM
  #388
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Selanne's knee was destroyed. What kind of possible career ending injury had Fedorov to excuse his performance?
Yes, being injured is not something what has to be brought to player's favour, but other than his injury, Selanne was always an excellent forward. Selanne on a wheelchair had comparable offensive output to healthy Fedorov. That's it.
And while post lockout Selanne performed like multiple 80+ seasons and SC, Fedorov went to 40->30->20->KHL

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03-18-2013, 02:28 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Fedorov went to 40->30->20->KHL
At least be complete (and much less disingenuous) and mention that when he was getting ~40 points it was in 60-some games, when he got ~30 points it was in ~50 games, and it was 13 points, not 20, and he got them in 18 games - and between the ages of 36-39, affected by such things as:

2009/03/17 Missed 3 games (flu).
2009/03/12 Flu, day-to-day.
2009/01/13 Missed 1 game (ankle injury).
2009/01/10 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
2009/01/09 Missed 10 games (ankle injury).
2008/12/15 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
2008/12/12 Missed 9 games (sprained left ankle).
2008/11/24 Sprained left ankle, day-to-day.
2008/11/22 Missed 7 games (lower body injury).
2008/11/08 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2008/02/17 Missed 13 games (concussion).
2008/01/19 Concussion, sidelined indefinitely.
2008/01/15 Missed 1 game (hip Pointer).
2008/01/12 Hip pointer, day-to-day.
2007/01/16 Missed 3 games (elbow injury).
2007/01/07 Elbow injury, day-to-day.
2006/10/23 Missed 6 games (left shoulder injury).
2006/09/21 Left shoulder injury, late October.
2006/03/21 Missed 2 games (back injury).
2006/03/17 Back injury, day-to-day.
2005/11/12 Missed 13 games (groin).
2005/10/14 Groin, sidelined indefinitely.


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03-18-2013, 02:44 AM
  #390
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Selanne on a wheelchair had comparable offensive output to healthy Fedorov.
"Selanne in a wheelchair" had comparable offensive output to Adam Foote. He had less than 50% of Sergei Fedorov's offensive output that same season, being the Anaheim season you take issue with of Fedorov's.

Selanne hadn't hit that 65-point mark since 2000-01, when he spent about 60 games playing with Kariya (Selanne scored 59 in 61 with Anaheim that year) while Kariya scored 67 in 66 on the whole season. Selanne's production after leaving town? 13 in his first 12 with San Jose, but then he scored 54 and 64 in two full 82-game seasons. 29 goals and 28 goals. He was in his early 30s (younger than I am now) and was clearly *done* as an elite player. The lockout literally saved Selanne from retirement.

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03-18-2013, 03:21 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
He was in his early 30s (younger than I am now) and was clearly *done* as an elite player. The lockout literally saved Selanne from retirement.
Because his knees. Not because his skills dissapeared.
During lockout all of the players had the luxury of possible repair and recovery of their beaten bodies.
What was the result?
Fedorov 260 games 160 points
Selanne 253 games 261 points
What is the excuse here? Yeah, Fedorov played a defensive responsible game.

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03-18-2013, 10:42 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Because his knees. Not because his skills dissapeared.
During lockout all of the players had the luxury of possible repair and recovery of their beaten bodies.
What was the result?
Fedorov 260 games 160 points
Selanne 253 games 261 points
What is the excuse here? Yeah, Fedorov played a defensive responsible game.
Fedorov post-lockout... who did he play with?

Hmm. Mediocre teammates in Columbus. Often played separately from Nash, Vyborny, and Zherdev; the only other offensively noteworthy forwards.

After being traded to Washington, Fedorov was generally used in a defensive capacity first and foremost to allow the Ovechkin line to flourish unhindered. He rarely saw ice with Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Green.

Selanne at this time... was being fed passes by two of the three best defensemen in the league. A couple years later, he was afforded the luxury of playing WITH first-line skill (Koivu, and later also Ryan) in an offensive capacity, but not on the first line. Meaning less resistance from the opposition, and more likelihood he would score.

Again; if you reverse their positions and give Fedorov the high-end teammates and linemates and the primary objective of scoring, rather than stopping the opposition from scoring, I bet that he would have put up that additional 100 points in 260 games.

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03-18-2013, 11:11 PM
  #393
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So pretty much what I gathered from this thread was that despite being on great teams Fedorov never played with good players.

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03-19-2013, 01:42 AM
  #394
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov post-lockout... who did he play with?

Hmm. Mediocre teammates in Columbus. Often played separately from Nash, Vyborny, and Zherdev; the only other offensively noteworthy forwards.

After being traded to Washington, Fedorov was generally used in a defensive capacity first and foremost to allow the Ovechkin line to flourish unhindered. He rarely saw ice with Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Green.

Selanne at this time... was being fed passes by two of the three best defensemen in the league. A couple years later, he was afforded the luxury of playing WITH first-line skill (Koivu, and later also Ryan) in an offensive capacity, but not on the first line. Meaning less resistance from the opposition, and more likelihood he would score.

Again; if you reverse their positions and give Fedorov the high-end teammates and linemates and the primary objective of scoring, rather than stopping the opposition from scoring, I bet that he would have put up that additional 100 points in 260 games.
THe thing is that you have all these scenarios figured out. If Fedorov would have the same opportunities than Selanne he would have excelled better. First of all, there is no way of knowing what would have happened, but if you give Fedorov the same production just by snapping you'r fingers, I give Selanne the same Play-Off production by snapping mine.

How about now? They have roughly the same offensive production past lockout and roughly the same play-off production pre lockout. Which one takes the cake?

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03-19-2013, 01:44 AM
  #395
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So pretty much what I gathered from this thread was that despite being on great teams Fedorov never played with good players.
Sometimes it seems like no Red Wing player ever had the luxury of playing with good linemates. I find it pretty interesting that Mighty Ducks player from late 90's was playing with better team-mates than 90's Red Winger.

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03-19-2013, 01:44 AM
  #396
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So pretty much what I gathered from this thread was that despite being on great teams Fedorov never played with good enough players to be considered an Art Ross favourite going into any particular year.
Not to speak for everyone, but I think the bolded additions "fix it for ya". It's somewhat of a trend on the really good teams - the champions we talk about as having the best examples of team defense/play. Who was Chicago's Art Ross front runner in '09/10? Kane finished 24 points behind Sedin, and Toews was 19 behind him. Who was the Kings' candidate last year? Kopitar was 33 points behind Malkin. Who was it during any of New Jersey's Cups, for a more contemporary example to Fedorov? Richer's 49 points in the shortened '94/95 was still 21 behind Jagr/Lindros. Elias finished 24 points behind Jagr in '99/00. Etc.

There have been plenty of teams in recent history whose success boiled down to buying into a team defense-first concept that allowed the team to be competitive (but more importantly successful) at the highest level, while inserting/changing pieces year to year, and often at the sacrifice of offensive stats for some of the more prominent players on the team. It's surprising to see so many people in this thread who apparently missed all of them, and struggle to connect the dots being laid out in front of them - in numerical order, even.

But let's follow the bread crumbs again. Fedorov turns into a 60+ point Selke guy during Detroit's success under Scotty Bowman until their last Cup in '01/02. Dave Lewis takes over the next year, Fedorov puts up an 80+ point season (getting ~3 mins/game of icetime more than the next highest forward, 5 mins/game more than any other centre, which was different from how Bowman used anyone those years), team gets swept by the Ducks in the 1st round. Fedorov probably could have gone to any number of teams instead and probably maintained ~80 point production for another year or two at least, but you know what? He goes to Mike Babcock's Mighty Ducks, where his 65 points leads his next highest teammate by 11, and defense first rules the day. Might not mean so much, except imo we've seen the same impact on Datsyuk/Zetterberg's offensive numbers under Babcock with the post lockout Wings. And then... he goes to Columbus...

That's the tale of Fedorov's (somewhat "artificially") decreased offensive production before the injuries started hitting him between ages 36-39, for those who, to this point, have felt more comfortable with their understanding of what they thought the spreadsheets were telling them.


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03-19-2013, 01:53 AM
  #397
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Sometimes it seems like no Red Wing player ever had the luxury of playing with good linemates. I find it pretty interesting that Mighty Ducks player from late 90's was playing with better team-mates than 90's Red Winger.
Sometimes it's like no one remembers that Fedorov was the guy that the Ducks went out to get after losing Kariya to free agency two weeks earlier (Col.), and that Fedorov was then moved out of Anaheim before Selanne was brought back to the Niedermayer/Getzlaf/Perry version of the Ducks.

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03-19-2013, 02:01 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sometimes it's like no one remembers that Fedorov was the guy that the Ducks went out to get after losing Kariya to free agency two weeks earlier (Col.), and that Fedorov was then moved out of Anaheim before Selanne was brought back to the Niedermayer/Getzlaf/Perry version of the Ducks.
What do you mean by this? It was 03/04 Season when Fedorov played with Ducks. Are you implying that it was the only time Fedorov played with bad linemates?


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03-19-2013, 02:02 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
So pretty much what I gathered from this thread was that despite being on great teams Fedorov never played with good players.
Fedorov played with much better players than Selanne, but after 1995-96 in particular (when Coffey was traded Yzerman started getting the best linemates for good), Selanne was in a much more favorable situation to put up regular season offensive numbers.

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03-19-2013, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Fedorov played with much better players than Selanne, but after 1995-96 in particular (when Coffey was traded Yzerman started getting the best linemates for good), Selanne was in a much more favorable situation to put up regular season offensive numbers.
I have heard and thought about it myself too. Fedorov absolutely had his production hurt by playing with Red Wings in the 90's. They basically did not have the top-dog in that team and everybody was responsible to play both ends of the ice.

Selanne and Kariya were probably the most defensively free players of the 90's after Bure.

How much did his production take a hit, and how much is there merit to the idea that Fedorov was better offensively than his stats show? I find it difficult to rate him due to the stellar overall play and the fact that he did show capability of top offensive forward but never really cashed in the check.

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