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Datsyuk is the best 2 way player in the world

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:15 PM
  #476
pdd
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Are you really surprised that in a sport where the NHL is king and European players have only been playing in it for a fraction of it's existence, that most great players in it's history are Canadian and American? Even now only like 25% of players in the league are European.
Syckle was responding to implications of European bias. The lists he referred to are supposed to include all of hockey history, not just the NHL. That's why guys like Kharlamov and Holecek make it on there.

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03-17-2013, 11:17 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by danmcn12 View Post
Well, if we are considering Datsyuk a two way player wouldn't Crosby be the best two way player. He is the best all around player. Datsyuk might be the second best this season though.
In that case, Wayne Gretzky is the best two-way center ever.

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03-17-2013, 11:19 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Oh is that all..

Selkes

199798 Jere Lehtinen
199899 Jere Lehtinen
200203 Jere Lehtinen

Lady Byngs

195051 Red Kelly
195253 Red Kelly
195354 Red Kelly
196061 Red Kelly

Gretsky won it 5 times

Its not like it hasn't been done before
He's obviously not missing Selkes and Lady Byngs so why are you bringing it up

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03-17-2013, 11:20 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In that case, Wayne Gretzky is the best two-way center ever.
I saw that movie on Adult Swim last night and I suddenly understood your username.

On topic: No he is not. Toews and Bergeron are better, as they are actually used against the top lines of the opponents.

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03-17-2013, 11:21 PM
  #480
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Great player. Not better than Fedorov though.

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03-17-2013, 11:26 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
He's obviously not missing Selkes and Lady Byngs so why are you bringing it up
Because someone was making it look like its never been done before.

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03-17-2013, 11:30 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Because someone was making it look like its never been done before.
No they weren't. That guy was just listing some of his achievements, no mention of "no one has ever won these awards before".

But just so we're clear, you do realize Jere Lehtinen and Red Kelly aren't actually the same person, right?

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03-17-2013, 11:30 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Because someone was making it look like its never been done before.
He said all he's missing is an Art Ross or a Hart... Regardless, Datsyuk must be top 5 all time in Selke wins... Could possibly win one or two more as well if he stays healthy

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03-17-2013, 11:31 PM
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Because someone was making it look like its never been done before.
No, they were not. They listed accomplishments. I'm pretty sure everyone understood the point of that post.

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:33 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
On topic: No he is not. Toews and Bergeron are better, as they are actually used against the top lines of the opponents.
That'd be great if it had any truth to it.

Datsyuk actually has a higher quality of competition than both Bergeron and Toews this season. In addition, he has by far the weakest quality of teammates. Despite all of this, he's still outscoring both of them.

Anybody who has watched Detroit this season knows that Babcock has used Datsyuk as his shutdown center.

The whole "Zetterberg gets the tougher minutes" has been one of the most overblown arguments on here. They've both played against opposing top lines over the years and their quality of competition has been very similar. The difference is that Datsyuk's been leaned on more and more the past couple of seasons and in fact, this season is the largest gap in quality of competition that the two of them have had.

But go on, keep using that myth.

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03-17-2013, 11:34 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
I saw that movie on Adult Swim last night and I suddenly understood your username.
Watch the series. Epic awesome.

Quote:
On topic: No he is not. Toews and Bergeron are better, as they are actually used against the top lines of the opponents.
According to CORSI numbers, that would be Dave Bolland and Chris Kelly/Rich Peverley, respectively. But for the Wings, the top three in CORSI QoC are Datsyuk, Cleary, and Zetterberg. They rank 4th, 12th, and 17th in terms of QoC. With QoC numbers well above that of Toews or Bergeron.

Also of note... Crosby's CORSI Rel QoC is -0.016, and Malkin's is -0.682 (lowest on the Pens), meaning they play against below-average opposition. Highest on Pittsburgh? Matt Cooke. Pascal Dupuis is 0.945. Chris Kunitz is 0.052.

I should note that these are all ES stats.

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03-17-2013, 11:35 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
No they weren't. That guy was just listing some of his achievements, no mention of "no one has ever won these awards before".

But just so we're clear, you do realize Jere Lehtinen and Red Kelly aren't actually the same person, right?
I'm pretty sure Red changed his name to Jiri to avoid suspicion when he arrived via his hottub time machine to win those Selkes. Same person, different name.

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Old
03-17-2013, 11:38 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Chieftans22 View Post
Pretty arguable. Bergeron is having a good year and Datsyuk isn't getting any younger. He may have had a good game but that doesn't really change much.
Bergeron is good, but Datsyuk is on another level, if you don't think that you're not watching him play.

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03-18-2013, 12:01 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
datsyuk has usually been the 1st F in the last few seasons, b/c he's the team's best faceoff man. this season, babcock has often used datsyuk and zetterberg with 1 d-man.
Every time I see this I chuckle a little bit. Babcock is more confident in Datsyuk defensively than he is most of his own defensemen.

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03-18-2013, 12:11 AM
  #490
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i saw him play livefor the first time last night against Vancouver...i didnt realize how good he was until seeing him live...was watching him even when he didnt have puck...

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03-18-2013, 02:49 AM
  #491
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Could just be because I'm a Sharks fan, but IMO Datsyuk is declining these past few years and can no longer be called the best 2 way forward. He's still capable of magic but it's much fewer and further between than in years past.

The past few years Thornton has been getting the better of him and while Thornton has become one of the better 2-way players in the league, I don't think he's the best so that puts Datsyuk a good number of spots off the top.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Toews is significantly better than Datsyuk right now as a 2-way player, and that's not a knock on Datsyuk. Toews is entering his prime as a 30-goal scorer, Datsyuk has not been that offensively dangerous in quite a while and his health is becoming an issue.


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03-18-2013, 02:58 AM
  #492
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Pavel Datsyuk: From Poor Defensively to An Elite Two-Way Player. A Look Back at 2003.

As we all are aware of, Pavel Datsyuk is one of the most prolific two-way players of this generation and, arguably, of all time. He has three consecutive Selke trophies to prove it, he has had outstanding takaeaway numbers over the past several seasons, and his play with and without the puck has been absolutely phenomenal. There is no doubt most of us should consider him one of the smartest and most effective two-way players in the game today.

What I'd like to ask those who have followed him throughout his career is whether his defensive prowess was learned and developed over the course of his early NHL seasons. If so, I think it supports the idea that players with offensive gifts can learn to become terrific defensive players despite starting off poorly when they first join the NHL. As the old adage suggests, defense can be taught while offense can not. For players like Nail Yakupov and other defensively-challenged players, there is a real opportunity for them to improve if they work at it.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ad.php?t=33690

Here is a thread about Pavel Datsyuk uncovered from December 2003, 2.5 seasons after he debuted in the NHL. At that point, he had already played 150+ games in the NHL. Some of the comments may be surprising:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...80&postcount=4
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavaKozlov
Yeah, Datsyuk is great and all, but you guys would be majorly ripped off in a Datsyuk/Nash swap. Nash is a huge powerforward in the mold. He is constantly getting better, and already has 17 goals, which I think is either second or tied with Ilja Kovalchuk for the league lead. Sure, Datsyuk has 27 points in 27 games, but CBJ already has Nik Zherdev, who is a similar player to Dats (in a way) but Zherdev is bigger, and a better goal scorer. Datsyuk just started shooting more this season, and is very good passing the puck.

Reality, though, I love Dats on the Red Wings, and I don't want to trade him, ESP to the CBJ's. A line with Nash - Datsyuk - Zherdev would be DEADLY *although a defensive liability, lol* I will gladly take Zherdev or Nash off your hands though
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...09&postcount=7
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJacketBoy
Yeah lol, the defense would be a problem but with all the scoring that line would put up, their +/- would still probably be pretty high.

Anyways, I understand your desire to not wanna trade Pavel. I may value him higher than others because I simply like him so much, but no one can deny that he's flat-out a stud. I'm a big fan of Marty Turco too, and we all know what Pavel did to him .

As for Zetterberg being better than Datsyuk, I can't really comment on that because I haven't seen nearly as much of Z as I have Datsyuk. Plus, my liking of Pavel would still probably cause me to take him over Henrik. That's just my opinion though.

As for the "proposed trades", keep em coming, I wanna see what all you Wings fans think.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...87&postcount=8
Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel13
Although many disagree with me, I think Datsyuk will definitely be more of an offensive threat than Zetterberg. I can see Zetterberg developing into a Jere Lehtinen-ish player (but more ofense and a bit less defense), whereas Datsyuk is a scoring machine.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=14
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
I, myself put a lot of value on him. His defensive game is so so, but nothing great, but his playmaking ability is top notch and only getting better it seams.... He just doesnt stop. He's on pace for 82 pts or so according to espn, although it says he'll get over 30 goals too..lol... Datsyuk should go2 the allstar game sometime soon within the next few years because he's just so skilled.. His hands are golden, and his vision is just as good, its sick.... He's definitly a awesome player and can take the work load... Just wish zets was healthy to see how good he would be doing
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...0&postcount=15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatican Roulette
I dont know if Zetterberg will ever out produce Datsyuk. Zetterberg strikes me as the guy with 20 goals and 30-35 assists while playing 2 way hockey. He does have the flash every now and then of a highlight play, but i think as his career goes on, he will be more of a 50-55 point producer consistantly. *Not a bad thing*

Datsyuk strikes me as a wild card. He could blow up. Each year he has played in the NHL he has gotten better. He also follows instructions well, remember how Detroit wanted him to shoot more? He has, and it has worked out well. He controls the play with his stickhandling, and defenseman are leary to try and move in to close to him away from the boards because they know in all likelyhood he will beat them. He creates more room for the other players on the ice....like Hull. His defense has alos improved dramatically since his rookie year...he now backchecks harder, throws a hit now and then(reminds me of Kozlov's mean streak, the kind where he's quiet all night and then he nails a guy, hey adam foote?). He uses his stick to break up more and more plays every time i watch him....and he's a big game player, doesn't disappear.

Zetterberg will be the better all around player, but will not out produce Datsyuk in their respective careers.

again, just my opinion.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Pig Pen, think you have me confused for someone else.

Datsyuk, to me, is fools gold. He'll give you good offensive numbers (60 - 70 points) but he's garbage in his own zone, and makes many mental mistakes. In fact, he's quite similar to Mike Comrie.

Zetterberg is the real burdgeoning superstar. He's the guy who reminds me of a young Naslund, and I think Zetts could be a 40 goal scorer someday.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=30
Quote:
Originally Posted by PigPen
By your definition, what is a true 1st line center?
Also keep in mind that Datsyuk is the hottest player in the league over the past 15 games, one of the top 10 scorers, has a faceoff percentage of around 55%.
It's not like he's a cherry picker waiting around his own blueline. He DOES come back. He's not great defensively but he's nowhere near as bad as you think he is
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...2&postcount=40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown
Pavel is getting better in the defensive zone. But still has some work to do. The best thing IMO is he has been getting better in all area's of his game. He's better on faceoffs, better in his own end, and shotting more. To his credit he isn't just satisfied with being a dynamic offensive player, he knows there is more than just making pretty passes. Thats whats gonna make him a top NHL talent if he continues his progress.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=43
Quote:
Originally Posted by kira
As you guys have already mentioned, yes, the defensive game is still not up to snuff, but I've seen players who have been around a lot longer than he has make a lot stupider mistakes. He's getting better at it...and he's not afraid to keep trying.

I like the stats that I'm seeing from him...he leads the team in scoring (with Hull)...among the league leaders in goals (14), assists (17), power play goals (5), game winning goals (3), has one of the best shot percentages in the league...he's going out night after night, playing his heart out and maybe it will make some people sit up and take notice. I hope so. It doesn't matter who you put on a line with him - last night it was Draper...it's been Thomas (and that line kicked ass), Devereaux, Zetterberg, Whitney - it doesn't matter...the chemistry is there. He must be doing something right!
Now, as some of the posters in that thread suggested, Pavel was working hard to improve his game, and had already made several strides by the end of that year. He was not a satisfactory in the defensive zone yet, but as we know now he has become an elite player in his own zone.

Pavel Datsyuk's development since he joined he league will indicate that players who seem to struggle in their defensive zone can learn. He began as a subpar player defensively and developed into one of the greatest. This leads into my thought that even the least defensively-sound players in the league can become solid defensively if they work hard enough at it. Sometimes players are written off as defensive liabilities, but as we see here, the degree to which a player can improve is quite substantial. Perhaps it's not absurd to think a player like Nail Yakupov can, in fact, learn to be a good player in his own zone and continue to be strong offensively. Cody Hodgson as well.

What do Red Wings fans remember about Pavel in his earlier years, and did you believe, like some of the above posters did, that he would become a purely-offensive player?


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 03-18-2013 at 03:09 AM.
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Old
03-18-2013, 02:59 AM
  #493
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You know people are not watching Pavel Datsyuk play when they claim Joe Thornton is a better 2-way forward.

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03-18-2013, 03:00 AM
  #494
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Originally Posted by radekas View Post
You know people are not watching Pavel Datsyuk play when they claim Joe Thornton is a better 2-way forward.
I watch him play Joe Thornton and come up short. Sounds like you don't watch enough of Thornton. (Actually I do watch the Wings play a decent amount)

There are several players I worry about more than Datsyuk these days, but the guy's way older than all of them.


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03-18-2013, 03:09 AM
  #495
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I like the thread concept and the research you did.

I don't think I would have predicted Datsyuk becoming such a prolific defensive player, but I didn't analyze his game like a Wings fan would have. All I remember were plays like this:



I was looking at his +/-, and his only career season with a minus rating was his third year in 03-04. Though he was on one of the most stacked teams in the league, so that number probably isn't worth much.

Still, can't imagine he was as bad defensively as some of the posts you found would have suggested. Interested to see the opinions of Detroit fans.

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03-18-2013, 03:10 AM
  #496
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Maybe another thread wasn't needed?

But on "topic," yes, I believe his two-way game was developed over time. I really doubt he was born knowing how to be a fantastic two-way player. Although maybe he was!

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03-18-2013, 03:14 AM
  #497
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This is a great thread. Very well researched OP and this just goes to show you that defensive ability can be developed and coached at the NHL level.

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03-18-2013, 03:16 AM
  #498
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I don't think many of the posters here were even in middle school in 2003.

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03-18-2013, 03:17 AM
  #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBootsie View Post
Maybe another thread wasn't needed?

But on "topic," yes, I believe his two-way game was developed over time. I really doubt he was born knowing how to be a fantastic two-way player. Although maybe he was!
The main issue is the development of strong two-way play, and to what extent certain prospects with purely-offensive games can adapt to become both elite offensively and defensively.

I gave the example of Pavel Datsyuk as he is one such case of a player who joined the league playing apparently dreadful hockey in his own zone and yet surpassing all expectations as he matured and worked at his game. Some players are drafted immediately, such as Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Gabriel Landeskog, with the expectation that they can play a strong two-way game. In fact, fans compared RNH with Datsyuk -- but Datsyuk was not always the current Datsyuk. At one point, he was just an offensive player.

This, in my opinion, opens up a lot of potential discussion about how much stock fans should put into a player's two-way game early in his career, and how raw offensive players can learn to become two-way players throughout the course of their NHL careers. It also makes one wonder how important coaching is to these players, as the wrong coach can lead a player astray while the right coach can help develop the player into something tremendous.

Are there any such players you might be worried about in terms of their development? Which coaches do you think would be most beneficial to the league's younger offensive talents?


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 03-18-2013 at 03:26 AM.
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03-18-2013, 03:17 AM
  #500
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Says a guy who spends the bulk of his argument citing statistics by themselves and making up what it means to play a two-way game or what it means to be a center, instead of actually noticing what hockey fans and experts see on the ice on a regular basis, as well as never pointing out these "many" players that play better at the forward position.
Do you honestly expect better from a Pens fan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Could just be because I'm a Sharks fan, but IMO Datsyuk is declining these past few years and can no longer be called the best 2 way forward. He's still capable of magic but it's much fewer and further between than in years past.

The past few years Thornton has been getting the better of him and while Thornton has become one of the better 2-way players in the league, I don't think he's the best so that puts Datsyuk a good number of spots off the top.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Toews is significantly better than Datsyuk right now as a 2-way player, and that's not a knock on Datsyuk. Toews is entering his prime as a 30-goal scorer, Datsyuk has not been that offensively dangerous in quite a while and his health is becoming an issue.
Watch more hockey, please, and then get back to us.

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