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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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Old
03-16-2013, 02:06 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why exactly do they sound foolish? Because you didn't see it yourself?
Who ever said PK will never have a dump in the road throughout his development??
You don't make much sense.
PK had things to prove, sure, so does every player in the NHL. You constantly have to prove yourself in the NHL, otherwise you start losing your place.

But PK had already proven capable of effectively shutting down the opposition's top players. That is the most important thing here. He hadn't done it over one year only, he did it in back to back years.
Knowing his potential, work ethic and seriousness, question was, do you take the risk of locking him up long term now for cheaper, or give him a bridge deal, see if he can fix those details in his game, and then give him even bigger bucks. That was the question.
Some believed that it was well worth the risk. The reason they believed that is because you knew, at the very least, that PK was going to be a top pairing Dman anyways. I mean, why would anybody think he would actually regress and simply be a top 4?..Makes no sense. So at the very least, you get PK at an okay price.

Others didn't feel the risk was worth it. They still haven't really given solid arguments as to why.



Listen, you were one that said ''PK is putting himself ahead of the team'' because you thought he was holding out for huge cash.
He ends up signing for cheaper money than you thought he would.

Who based their opinion on supposition?

I'm saying we should have signed PK to a cheaper long deal as soon as we could have.
Even if we bring in other players, it's irrelevant. In the end, PK will end up costing us more than he would have had we signed him earlier.
You said it yourself, Bergevin has found ways to shed salary. So even if we had signed PK to a bigger deal, according to your own words, nothing says Bergevin wouldn't have been able to move other players and make changes that way.
actually, it is relevant as acquiring new players usually means a better team.

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03-16-2013, 02:58 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
He's a great player, but not really what we need at the moment. I'd be more interested in time machine+ orpik.
This makes no sense to me. Letang is needed by every team in the league since he's one of the top D in the league.

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03-16-2013, 03:00 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
This makes no sense to me. Letang is needed by every team in the league since he's one of the top D in the league.
He'd get at the top of our depth chart, that's for sure, but we already have plenty of Defensemen of his style, including one that might have the potential of eventually becoming even better.

He's not the kind of player we'd pay generously to acquire; we don't need one more player of his kind that badly.

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03-16-2013, 03:00 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
actually, it is relevant as acquiring new players usually means a better team.
I don't think it would have changed a thing. Either you make room now, or you make some later. It's not because PK would have made 2M more that we wouldn't have been able to bring in anybody.

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03-16-2013, 03:03 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
This makes no sense to me. Letang is needed by every team in the league since he's one of the top D in the league.
Crosby is arguably the best player in the league, doesn't mean every team needs him to win a cup.

We already have PK that is similar to Letang. We also have Markov, and hopefully soon, Diaz. We need more a solid stay at home beast.
Don't get me wrong, having Letang on our back end with our current group would make our defense look like an All-Star roster, but this isn't an All-Star game.

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03-16-2013, 03:22 PM
  #256
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Not to mention we have another offensively gifted defenseman in our system in Beaulieu, I just don't see the need for Letang. That doesn't mean he doesn't make the team better, it just means there are other aspects of our team that could be improved first.

It's like saying if we could get another elite goalie as a backup.. Sure the team is better obviously but it's not something you go out and do when there are other holes that need to be filled.

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03-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think it would have changed a thing. Either you make room now, or you make some later. It's not because PK would have made 2M more that we wouldn't have been able to bring in anybody.
By that logic, PK making more on his next contract will not change a thing either, they can make room later as ou said.

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03-16-2013, 04:09 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
actually, it is relevant as acquiring new players usually means a better team.
That is not actually true. There have been times where bringing in new players does not help a team. The Flyers were far better with Carter, Richards, and JvR. THey traded those guys away and with all of the new players they acquired have become a worse team. The same is true with the Buffalo Sabres who went out to get Erhoff, Leino, Ott, and have only gotten worse.

Bringing in new players CAN succeed. It can also backfire.

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Old
03-16-2013, 04:16 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Ok so Skinner at 5.75 with 1 30+ goal season is decent? Eberle at 6 also has 1 30 goal season is decent?Kane, Toew, Bolland all signed with a cup ring in hand.
All I'm saying is that if you are gonna pay big bucks, why the rush? Things can change so fast.
For their terms, yes those are decent contracts, and they are definitely above average players, like Subban.

Why the rush? No rush, but it's logic. Long term it costs more money to sign an elite player to a bridge contract. It just gives them more time to load up with leverage for the negotiations down the road.

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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Skinner started in the NHL younger than Subban. Carolina took a risk. It's not hard to believe that a young kid at 18, who scores, is not worth 5.75 M. I am sure that the hockey minds in Carolina aren't going to give 5.75 M to a fluky player, they watch him play, practice, live. They have faith in the kid. In 2019 when his contract is about to finish, he will making 5.75, potentially scoring 50 goals as a 27 year year old, when with recent trends the money to a player like that is going to be upwards of 7.5-8 M.

Risk vs Rewards. Having a potential star player on a discount, it helps you make moves. Having faith in the product you are trying to put on the ice helps. Eberle was being identified as a winner, not just his 1 30 goal season. They are trying to establish a core, by paying them now. They gave that money to Hall, and they feel that the both of them are the core.

It all comes down to a "little bit less now, a little bit more later". I would prefer to manage my cap long term, making decision on players I have faith in and believe they will earn the money. For Andrei Kostitsyn, he deserved 2-3 years deals because he may have had talent, but doubt was always there. With Skinner, Eberle it's obvious that the people making decisions have faith in their abilities.

What else can we really talk about when we talking about the future? Some "have faith" some don't. A bunch of us in this thread "have faith" in the ability of Subban and think that having him at a low cap hit would benefit this team long term. Adding to that, having him at a low cap hit for 2 years, can help us short term, but I also fear that it can hurt us long term. Is Subban in the Habs plans long-term? You bet your ass. So why didn't they solidify him as a piece of this long-term plan? Yes it's not impossible that he regresses and doesn't earn his next contract, but are we really afraid this might happen? He constantly showed us that he wants to learn and get better. He wants to play in MTL, he love the passion here. He is not afraid of the pressure, if anything he excels when the stakes are high. He comes in as a rookie and totally dominates in the playoff, being credited with shutting down Crosby. The next year he scores 14 goals but his defense was questioned, but he was a rookie in a new league. The next year he somewhat slumped in scoring goals, stats wise it look like he didn't get the same bounces. With that misfortune, we saw his defensive game improve significantly, he is progressing at a rapid rate. The habs have now had the luxury to watch Subban in 3 seasons. 1 playoff (21 playoff games) and 2 regular seasons. In my opinion he has it all. He will be our #1 D for the future. Maybe he isn't there today, but he isn't far. To think that he is only get better as he approaches and enters his prime.

Sure you can be skeptical. Yes you can believe that 3 million dollars this offseason is going to help us sign a big name player. I believe that Subban is the future of this team and waiting too long and needing him to sign for 7+ million in the future will make it harder on this team in the future. I guess I have no doubts. I guess it comes down to who around here is positivist.

Incredibly well said. Great post!

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Old
03-16-2013, 04:17 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
That is not actually true. There have been times where bringing in new players does not help a team. The Flyers were far better with Carter, Richards, and JvR. THey traded those guys away and with all of the new players they acquired have become a worse team. The same is true with the Buffalo Sabres who went out to get Erhoff, Leino, Ott, and have only gotten worse.

Bringing in new players CAN succeed. It can also backfire.
Chris Pronger hasn't played with this new crop of players...

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Old
03-16-2013, 04:23 PM
  #261
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PK could have gotten a far longer deal. His work as our #1 defenceman while Markov was out should have been enough to get him a good, long term, deal. I hate the whole "bridge" contract idea because I worry it can alienate some young players and cause them to want to leave.

However, it is not all roses for teams signing their young stars to big money long term deals, either.

Look at how Tyler Myers is performing (or not performing) since getting his big contract. While I would have been happy with PK getting a longer contract, the fact that he did take a less than market value "bridge" deal at least shows he is NOT selfish and greedy like a lot of people who knew nothing about the negotiations ASSumed about him.

I would have liked him to get a longer term deal, like many, but am willing to see how Bergevin deals with Subban's next contract before saying he made a mistake.

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03-16-2013, 04:27 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
However, it is not all roses for teams signing their young stars to big money long term deals, either.

Look at how Tyler Myers is performing (or not performing) since getting his big contract.
But for every Myers, there is a Karlsson, Eberle and OEL.

Generally speaking, high end talent like Subban is easily recognizable. There is absolutely a risk (voir Myers), but in this particular case I think the risk was negligible.

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03-16-2013, 04:50 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
But for every Myers, there is a Karlsson, Eberle and OEL.
OEL has had his contract for about five minutes?

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03-16-2013, 04:59 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
OEL has had his contract for about five minutes?
Kane, Toews, Bolland, Skinner, Doughty, Hjalmarsson, Hall...So many examples.

OEL was not a risky signing. He'll be fine. Myers is just about the ONLY example of a long term contract going terribly wrong, and even then it's been 20 or so bad games, I doubt the Sabres are panicking.

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03-16-2013, 09:32 PM
  #265
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Subban was scary tonight.

It was the best of both world: his incredible energy, skill and athletic performance combined with clever and perfectly timed opportunism.

That's the best of Subban. It's all about maturing and picking your best spot, but doing a ****ing damn good job and changing the pace of the game when you do.

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03-17-2013, 05:15 PM
  #266
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Should we worry that Subban and Markov have respectively 5 and 4 points at ES?
I mean they are behind Emelin, Gorges, Bouillon and Diaz.

It is good to have a lot of PPP with Markov and Subban but they seem to have much less production at ES.

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03-17-2013, 05:34 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Should we worry that Subban and Markov have respectively 5 and 4 points at ES?
I mean they are behind Emelin, Gorges, Bouillon and Diaz.

It is good to have a lot of PPP with Markov and Subban but they seem to have much less production at ES.
No we should not worry since the team is already performing quite well at ES.

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03-17-2013, 05:45 PM
  #268
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Subban is simply a BEAST. On defense and offense. In the corner you know he's coming out with the puck. Physically stronger than most forwards in the league. If we have another PK Subban we'll have one of the best defense group in the league. Drew Doughty is more offensive but isn't as physical as Subban. Alex Pietrangelo is another player who can play both ends but again isn't as physically dominating as Subban. I would put Subban in that class. Subban should be a $6.5 million dollar player 2 years from now.

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03-17-2013, 05:49 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Should we worry that Subban and Markov have respectively 5 and 4 points at ES?
I mean they are behind Emelin, Gorges, Bouillon and Diaz.

It is good to have a lot of PPP with Markov and Subban but they seem to have much less production at ES.
Nope. Last year Subban had something like 21 ES pts. He can produce at ES. Therrien is simply using them to the best of their abilities. Considering the team is good at scoring goals at ES, he has them play a more defensive style when in that situation. When on the PP, they're free to work their magic. If the ES production starts being anaemic, I'm confident he'll give them more freedom.

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03-17-2013, 05:54 PM
  #270
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Subban is a beast and I am so glad he is a Hab hopefully for many years. I love his passion and attitude and I'm glad he isn't yapping. This causes fights which we don't need. His play has been outstanding.

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03-17-2013, 07:06 PM
  #271
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Nope. Last year Subban had something like 21 ES pts. He can produce at ES. Therrien is simply using them to the best of their abilities. Considering the team is good at scoring goals at ES, he has them play a more defensive style when in that situation. When on the PP, they're free to work their magic. If the ES production starts being anaemic, I'm confident he'll give them more freedom.
Well PK was 38th in ESP last season.
The only difference this year is a higher PPP.
Maybe Subban is partly following Souray's path where Markov makes him a better point producer in PP.
But granted that Subban production at ES is about same pace as last year.

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03-17-2013, 07:16 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
But for every Myers, there is a Karlsson, Eberle and OEL.

Generally speaking, high end talent like Subban is easily recognizable. There is absolutely a risk (voir Myers), but in this particular case I think the risk was negligible.
I think it's off ice behavior that worried the team.

That said Subban is amazing this year, can we extend him now??

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03-18-2013, 12:40 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
That is not actually true. There have been times where bringing in new players does not help a team. The Flyers were far better with Carter, Richards, and JvR. THey traded those guys away and with all of the new players they acquired have become a worse team. The same is true with the Buffalo Sabres who went out to get Erhoff, Leino, Ott, and have only gotten worse.

Bringing in new players CAN succeed. It can also backfire.
Bad example, Flyers are worse because they never replaced Pronger and count on an aging Timmonen to take the lead on D... players they acquired in the Carter/Richards trade are doing just fine.

Besides, we arent doing all that bad with Prust, Bouillon and Armstrong.

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03-18-2013, 03:39 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
I think it's off ice behavior that worried the team.

That said Subban is amazing this year, can we extend him now??
Doesn't the rule says we need to wait until the 1st of July? Or it says we need to wait a full year?

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03-18-2013, 08:56 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
For their terms, yes those are decent contracts, and they are definitely above average players, like Subban.

Why the rush? No rush, but it's logic. Long term it costs more money to sign an elite player to a bridge contract. It just gives them more time to load up with leverage for the negotiations down the road.




Incredibly well said. Great post!
Those are great opinion by you and crazynine. I still like bridge deal and shorter terms contract and IMO I would say it keeps players and the game more honest. I have seen it so many time, players signing big deals and falling flat with there performance.
I also beleive that big contract should be handed to players who have been there done that over the years, not to young budding stars, but that's me.

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