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Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (12-13 Part XII)

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03-18-2013, 12:48 AM
  #276
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What's not to love about a team with a 4th line that can't handle any ice time and a 3rd line that is getting destroyed by the opposition.
Right, because one game, their third played in four nights, for a team on the heels of a 10-3-1 run (IIRC) defines a third line/4th line being destroyed by the opposition. We should instead break that down to the four games that Burmistrov has missed to be fair and the 3-1 results.

[sarcasm] Obviously a 175 pound 3rd/4th line forward forward was the clear difference between winning and losing today. [/sarcasm]

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03-18-2013, 01:23 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Right, because one game, their third played in four nights, for a team on the heels of a 10-3-1 run (IIRC) defines a third line/4th line being destroyed by the opposition. We should instead break that down to the four games that Burmistrov has missed to be fair and the 3-1 results.

[sarcasm] Obviously a 175 pound 3rd/4th line forward forward was the clear difference between winning and losing today. [/sarcasm]
I definitely think that with a fresh body in there, especially on the checking line, it could have made difference.

I think that since he hasn't broken through offensively yet, you think he's a waste of space...despite the fact that you have been shown through statistical evidence that Burmi makes this team better defensively.

I think today was a coaching issue. I get not wanting to break up a winning line up...but in the second game of a back to back after a long first game...come on Noel. Pull your head out of your ass and put the guy in. How many games does he need to miss to get the picture. One probably would have been enough tbh.

Despite only being 175lbs...Burmi still throws the body and has immense skill with his stock which comes in very handy when it comes to back checking. He also has great speed and skating ability.

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03-18-2013, 01:25 AM
  #278
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PS: I know that can't send him down to the A now without exposing him to an eventual waiver claim... but too bad that decision wasn't made earlier when they were able to do so.

As an aside, both the Jets coaching and management obviously knew they could have used some fresh legs on Sunday but chose to sit him anyway; that speaks to something lacking from the player, be it attitudinal, an unwillingness to adhere to systems play, whatever. That roster decision was likely made in consultation with others upstairs.


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03-18-2013, 01:42 AM
  #279
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Even if they want to trade him, they are killing his value by scratching him...

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03-18-2013, 07:09 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Right, because one game, their third played in four nights, for a team on the heels of a 10-3-1 run (IIRC) defines a third line/4th line being destroyed by the opposition. We should instead break that down to the four games that Burmistrov has missed to be fair and the 3-1 results.

[sarcasm] Obviously a 175 pound 3rd/4th line forward forward was the clear difference between winning and losing today. [/sarcasm]
That comment is not about one game or about a win loss.

The third line got completely killed vs the Rangers too and the 4th line rarely gets ice. Those are long run problems.

James Wright is not a 3rd liner.

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03-18-2013, 07:26 AM
  #281
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Even if they want to trade him, they are killing his value by scratching him...
I don't think they want to trade him. They just want him to buy in. I expect Burmi is back in next game and we will see an improved game.

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03-18-2013, 08:01 AM
  #282
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Just cause a kid gets scratched doesn't mean he'll get traded. Wright is a good player but not a third liner. Burmi will go back in to play with Antro and Welly and Wright should be on the fourth line. Where our lack of depth shows is that we have no one to replace Slater, who is a 4th line centre. Will we see O'dell before the year is up? Odell Wright and Tangradi?

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03-18-2013, 08:05 AM
  #283
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The 2nd round of the 2003 draft (which this one is being compared to) saw the following players drafted: Loui Eriksson, Patrice Bergeron, Matt Carle, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford, Patrick O'Sullivan, David Backes, and Jimmy Howard.

So we're talking about a little better than a 1 in 4 chance of landing a player like that in exchange for 10 games of a marginal player that is not willing to re-sign. That also says nothing about the fact that a second round pick can be used as ammo to improve our roster in other areas.

A lot of this difference of opinion probably stems from our take on how much the players we are talking about moving actually impact the results of the team when compared to the players we would replace them with. I don't think any of the players we are talking about moving are difference makers at the margin. You must.
yup, that's what it generally comes down to. I really don't like clitsome riding shotgun to bogo (regardless of the fact he's playing with buff right now). Noel also pushes clitsome into the ozone, where bogo's pairing is usually the defensive pairing.

if they kept clitsome with buf and played toby with bogo and they did better then they have historically as a pair i'd feel more comfortable but otherwise i'm pretty hesitant.


also, the 2003 draft is arguably the deepest/most succesfull draft in history (definitly in the last 20 years). So your historical best case scenario is 25% success rate. Your more likely to be in the 10-20 range.

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03-18-2013, 08:17 AM
  #284
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That comment is not about one game or about a win loss.

The third line got completely killed vs the Rangers too and the 4th line rarely gets ice. Those are long run problems.

James Wright is not a 3rd liner.
I was responding to your comment about Burmistrov. This discussion is not about the third or fourth line but rather is about Burmistrov specifically, yet for some reason on this board, on twitter, etc, some wish to frame any Burmistrov discussion as really somehow being conversely about poor third or fourth line performance of late without him in the lineup, as if the intent is to deflect the discussion away from that the team is clearly currently unhappy with Burmistrov himself.

This team has lacked depth since day one this season. They they've a weak bottom six group is nothing new nor does it deflect from Burmistrov's own erratic play. On a day when they could have obviously used a set of fresh legs in the lineup they still chose to sit him; that says something right there about his current value in the eyes of the team.

They may or may not choose to trade him; he might stay and may not improve whatever it is they find lacking and then they are left with a 175 pound enigma. They certainly could also trade him and find that over the long haul he plays better on another NHL team and perhaps might regret that result, at least in the eyes of some. He could also perhaps bolt to the KHL at the end of the season and then they are left with nothing but his RFA rights.

I'm fairly ambivalent about the guy but feel there are likely better options out there and as such am now leaning toward they should package him with other pieces and beef up the lacking depth; better that than to risk losing him in exchange for nothing at all aside from his RFA rights.

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03-18-2013, 08:21 AM
  #285
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Even if they want to trade him, they are killing his value by scratching him...
An alternate view to the above is that they've also grown their own value during the same period, as evidenced by a 3-1 record in his absence.

Another alternate view is that it is the player himself that might be killing his own value... by failing to please his employer.

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03-18-2013, 08:24 AM
  #286
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My opinion is Burmistrov sitting (again) yesterday is not a reflection or any indication of Burmistrov and whatever he has done to warrant being scratched, it boils down to the team enduring success recently, and not tinkering with what was attaining the team wins.

More about the team, less about the player. Of course we will not know, but my bets and feelings are had the Jets have lost after Burmistrov being out a game, we would have seen him back in. Not because of the player he is or isn't, but because of the team results.

We could have won 5 more games in a row and I would bet or not be surprised if we did not insert Burmistrov back into the line-up. Some coaches, Noel obviously, are a believer in not tinkering with whatever is bringing the team success. He may not roll the same dice each time, but for this time, at this point in the season, that is what he felt, so that is what he did.

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03-18-2013, 08:26 AM
  #287
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Another alternate view is the Jets are currently active in talks for trading Burmi and are not playing him on the request of the team they are talking to, because they don't want him to get hurt before closing the deal.

I have seen this happen before. A player sits for a while and boom, they are traded. In fact by sitting a player the team could also be putting the message out there that he's available at the right price, because we can survive without him in the line-up.

Pure speculation of course.

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03-18-2013, 08:35 AM
  #288
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My opinion is Burmistrov sitting (again) yesterday is not a reflection or any indication of Burmistrov and whatever he has done to warrant being scratched, it boils down to the team enduring success recently, and not tinkering with what was attaining the team wins.

More about the team, less about the player. Of course we will not know, but my bets and feelings are had the Jets have lost after Burmistrov being out a game, we would have seen him back in. Not because of the player he is or isn't, but because of the team results.

We could have won 5 more games in a row and I would bet or not be surprised if we did not insert Burmistrov back into the line-up. Some coaches, Noel obviously, are a believer in not tinkering with whatever is bringing the team success. He may not roll the same dice each time, but for this time, at this point in the season, that is what he felt, so that is what he did.
They sat a top 6/9 player on a day when when they clearly could have used a fresh one. They are reportedly also seeking top 6/9 help in the trade market according to both Dreger and to Chevy himself as per his interview on 1290 on Friday. Those two factors could arguably be linked, or perhaps not.

They specifically however addressed a team want for size down the middle at both the draft and in free agency (Jokinen). That probably speaks to their views regarding Burmistrov in that position. Yet at wing there are also likely preferable options to rolling out a 175 pound winger in a league comprised mainly of behemoth opposition wingers. Wouldn't surprise me if he is eventually moved elsewhere.

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03-18-2013, 08:50 AM
  #289
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They sat a top 6/9 player on a day when when they clearly could have used a fresh one. They are reportedly also seeking top 6/9 help in the trade market according to both Dreger and to Chevy himself as per his interview on 1290 on Friday. Those two factors could arguably be linked, or perhaps not.

They specifically however addressed a team want for size down the middle at both the draft and in free agency (Jokinen). That probably speaks to their views regarding Burmistrov in that position. Yet at wing there are also likely preferable options to rolling out a 175 pound winger in a league comprised mainly of behemoth opposition wingers. Wouldn't surprise me if he is eventually moved elsewhere.
Agree with you, Gump. Many around here expected or were prepared for a let down yesterday, but even with the results I can't fault the coaches (or Noel) for rolling out the same line-up. Even if we played Burmstrov, we still get wiped out, in my opinion. One player with fresh legs is likely not going to change the rest of the team who is emotionally and physically tired.

I still say, more about the team, less about the player, as for Burmistrov sitting out again yesterday.

I like Burmistrov, but I am all for trading him in a deal (possibly with one of our 2nd's and a prospect like Klingberg, Cormier, etc) for a top 6 winger if a deal was there to be made. If Chevy does that, I will likely be quite happy.

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03-18-2013, 09:08 AM
  #290
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If he decides to listen to coach and play the system he needs to stay. If this guy never reaches his potential he is still a very reliable third line centre on a team that will need this kind of depth in a few years. Little and Schief can be 1-2 and Burmi can play on the third line in a shut down role which he would be great at. Lets not trade this kid just cause. We need the depth, but if we can get a top six RW then I would understand dealing him but he is still very valuable folks.

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03-18-2013, 09:17 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I was responding to your comment about Burmistrov. This discussion is not about the third or fourth line but rather is about Burmistrov specifically, yet for some reason on this board, on twitter, etc, some wish to frame any Burmistrov discussion as really somehow being conversely about poor third or fourth line performance of late without him in the lineup, as if the intent is to deflect the discussion away from that the team is clearly currently unhappy with Burmistrov himself.

This team has lacked depth since day one this season. They they've a weak bottom six group is nothing new nor does it deflect from Burmistrov's own erratic play. On a day when they could have obviously used a set of fresh legs in the lineup they still chose to sit him; that says something right there about his current value in the eyes of the team.

They may or may not choose to trade him; he might stay and may not improve whatever it is they find lacking and then they are left with a 175 pound enigma. They certainly could also trade him and find that over the long haul he plays better on another NHL team and perhaps might regret that result, at least in the eyes of some. He could also perhaps bolt to the KHL at the end of the season and then they are left with nothing but his RFA rights.

I'm fairly ambivalent about the guy but feel there are likely better options out there and as such am now leaning toward they should package him with other pieces and beef up the lacking depth; better that than to risk losing him in exchange for nothing at all aside from his RFA rights.
I don't want to see a wasted asset either and I have said repeatedly that I have no issue with the benching. I personally believe a more North/South approach will benefit Burmi personally as much as the team.

I am not in a position to be for or against the benching because I don't have all the info, nor do I have access to internal discussions or the coach's thought process. It is what it is as far as I am concerned.

That said I do however fail to understand how you can be happy with the team as it is currently constructed AND want an upgrade to the bottom 6. I also don't get denying the positive impact Burmi could have in that role. Welly and Antro both perform better and are more productive with Burmi that they are with Wright. That is undeniable and it isn't close.

That isn't me deflecting the fact that the team or Noel is upset with him, that is me hoping they get this resolved so the team can be better. I don't care if that comes via reinserting Burmi or trading him for somebody equally as useful. It just sucks knowing the team is worse than it has to be.

I don't care how it is resolved, but I would like resolution. Resolution will make the team better.

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03-18-2013, 09:21 AM
  #292
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My opinion is Burmistrov sitting (again) yesterday is not a reflection or any indication of Burmistrov and whatever he has done to warrant being scratched, it boils down to the team enduring success recently, and not tinkering with what was attaining the team wins.

More about the team, less about the player. Of course we will not know, but my bets and feelings are had the Jets have lost after Burmistrov being out a game, we would have seen him back in. Not because of the player he is or isn't, but because of the team results.

We could have won 5 more games in a row and I would bet or not be surprised if we did not insert Burmistrov back into the line-up. Some coaches, Noel obviously, are a believer in not tinkering with whatever is bringing the team success. He may not roll the same dice each time, but for this time, at this point in the season, that is what he felt, so that is what he did.
This. Not worried yet.

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03-18-2013, 09:26 AM
  #293
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That said I do however fail to understand how you can be happy with the team as it is currently constructed AND want an upgrade to the bottom 6. I also don't get denying the positive impact Burmi could have in that role. Welly and Antro both perform better and are more productive with Burmi that they are with Wright. That is undeniable.

That isn't me deflecting the fact that the team or Noel is upset with him, that is me hoping they get this resolved so the team can be better. I don't care if that comes via reinserting Burmi or trading him for somebody equally as useful. It just sucks knowing the team is worse than it has to be.

I don't care how it is resolved, but I would like resolution. Resolution will make the team better.
The thing is though, perhaps I am misunderstanding, but while the statistics may indicate certain players are more useful with Burmistrov, the fact of the matter is the team was winning and playing pretty good hockey without him. So, what's the defining factor? The team winning (and enduring success) or guys like Antropov and Wellwood possibly being better with a guy like Burmistrov, because that's what the stats show?

I personally couldn't give a hoot whether guys like Antropov or Wellwood are better with Burmistrov, if we're winning without him. Team success over individual statistic success. Sure, more individual statistic success should or could bring more team success... but... that hasn't really been the case lately, I don't think?

I'm just not so sure I see it fit to say "It just sucks knowing the team is worse than it has to be", what works may simply be... what works. Regardless of how statistically better Antropov or Wellwood may be with Burmistrov.

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03-18-2013, 09:29 AM
  #294
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That said I do however fail to understand how you can be happy with the team as it is currently constructed AND want an upgrade to the bottom 6. I also don't get denying the positive impact Burmi could have in that role. Welly and Antro both perform better and are more productive with Burmi that they are with Wright. That is undeniable.
I'm happy with the results of the team as it is currently constructed. I also prefer the heavy game they generally played without Burmistrov in the lineup aside from their clearly exhausted/tired performance of yesterday.

Teams are comprised of different sorts of players. Burmistrov probably has top 6 skills but can't find his niche in that role here despite having already played 175 NHL games. I'd rather see guys that play a heavier role in the bottom six, guys that bring a consistent and physical game every shift. One can seek upgrades over some of the current bottom six and still feel that Burmistrov doesn't fit within that vision. Those are not mutually exclusive points.

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03-18-2013, 09:49 AM
  #295
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The thing is though, perhaps I am misunderstanding, but while the statistics may indicate certain players are more useful with Burmistrov, the fact of the matter is the team was winning and playing pretty good hockey without him. So, what's the defining factor? The team winning (and enduring success) or guys like Antropov and Wellwood possibly being better with a guy like Burmistrov, because that's what the stats show?

I personally couldn't give a hoot whether guys like Antropov or Wellwood are better with Burmistrov, if we're winning without him. Team success over individual statistic success. Sure, more individual statistic success should or could bring more team success... but... that hasn't really been the case lately, I don't think?

I'm just not so sure I see it fit to say "It just sucks knowing the team is worse than it has to be", what works may simply be... what works. Regardless of how statistically better Antropov or Wellwood may be with Burmistrov.
The question is why did the team enjoy success over the last few games? That is what I look at.

In general I look at a game the same way whether it was a win or a loss.

I think we can say with certainty that the 4th hasn't been winning them games and we can say it probably wasn't the 3rd line that has been hemmed in their own zone allowing shots against more often than not.

LLW and Kane have been flat out dominating. Pav has been rock solid. That is where wins come from.

It would be one thing if Wright-Antro-Welly were getting beat up by tough opposition in order to free up the top 6, but they have been getting blasted by 3rd lines.

I try to use the same critical eye in a win as I do in a loss. I don't get how ignoring a plainly visible flaw because of a W serves a purpose.

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03-18-2013, 09:56 AM
  #296
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The question is why did the team enjoy success over the last few games? That is what I look at.

In general I look at a game the same way whether it was a win or a loss.

I think we can say with certainty that the 4th hasn't been winning them games and we can say it probably wasn't the 3rd line that has been hemmed in their own zone allowing shots against more often than not.

LLW and Kane have been flat out dominating. Pav has been rock solid. That is where wins come from.

It would be one thing if Wright-Antro-Welly were getting beat up by tough opposition in order to free up the top 6, but they have been getting blasted by 3rd lines.

I try to use the same critical eye in a win as I do in a loss. I don't get how ignoring a plainly visible flaw because of a W serves a purpose.
I see where you're coming from now. To be honest, I am much the same. We were winning those games, but I wasn't happy that we had to rely on 3 lines to do it. Having three forwards play 5-6 shifts a game is a pet peeve of mine. You can only afford to do that in my opinion so much, and it's going to kick you in the ass. Thorburn did in part serve a purpose in the last few games, but even still, it sucks that he cannot be trusted to play. Then there is Tangradi and Cormier, who, by all accounts are not trusted by Noel either.

Whatever Chevy has to do between now and the trade deadline in about 2 weeks, combined with the offseason, it's going to be instrumental in getting players in those roles that Noel can trust to play at an NHL level.

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03-18-2013, 10:06 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I'm happy with the results of the team as it is currently constructed. I also prefer the heavy game they generally played without Burmistrov in the lineup aside from their clearly exhausted/tired performance of yesterday.

Teams are comprised of different sorts of players. Burmistrov probably has top 6 skills but can't find his niche in that role here despite having already played 175 NHL games. I'd rather see guys that play a heavier role in the bottom six, guys that bring a consistent and physical game every shift. One can seek upgrades over some of the current bottom six and still feel that Burmistrov doesn't fit within that vision. Those are not mutually exclusive points.
Results

Shot attempts for/against with Wright on ice:

OTT: 6/19. -13
TOR: 14/9. +5
NYR: 4/21. -17
TOR: 12/7. +5

TOT: 36/56. -20

Heavier at the expense of being outplayed is a terrible idea, plus Burmi is far from a null physically.

Better players and better results player by player and line by line make for better team results.


I really like James Wright and I appreciate his hustle, but he is second worst on the team in both shot +/- and goal +/-. That isn't good.

I prefer a line and a team that generally outchances the opposition over one that gets killed.


That is where wins come from. Reinserting Burmi (or a replacement) and Toby should add a little more punch for the stretch drive.


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03-18-2013, 10:07 AM
  #298
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I see where you're coming from now. To be honest, I am much the same. We were winning those games, but I wasn't happy that we had to rely on 3 lines to do it. Having guys play 5-6 shifts a game is a pet peeve of mine. You can only afford to do that in my opinion so much, and it's going to kick you in the ass. Thorburn did in part serve a purpose in the last few games, but even still, it sucks that he cannot be trusted to play. Then there is Tangradi and Cormier, who, by all accounts are not trusted by Noel either.

Whatever Chevy has to do between now and the trade deadline in about 2 weeks, combined with the offseason, it's going to be instrumental in getting players in those roles that can actually play them at an NHL level.
They also won a bunch of games prior to yesterday by rolling three lines. They lack depth and have since day one; this isn't news, not sure why some are trying to frame it that way ex-Burmistrov.

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03-18-2013, 10:07 AM
  #299
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I see where you're coming from now. To be honest, I am much the same. We were winning those games, but I wasn't happy that we had to rely on 3 lines to do it. Having three forwards play 5-6 shifts a game is a pet peeve of mine. You can only afford to do that in my opinion so much, and it's going to kick you in the ass. Thorburn did in part serve a purpose in the last few games, but even still, it sucks that he cannot be trusted to play. Then there is Tangradi and Cormier, who, by all accounts are not trusted by Noel either.

Whatever Chevy has to do between now and the trade deadline in about 2 weeks, combined with the offseason, it's going to be instrumental in getting players in those roles that Noel can trust to play at an NHL level.
The reality is, I don't think we have to give up much of anything to get a good solid 4th line, either. Is there anybody here who wouldn't be happy with cloning #17 and putting him in all 3 spots on the 4th line? (provided you taught one of him to be a reasonable faceoff guy) We're all happy with Wright, and while we got him early while everyone was healthy, he was still a waiver guy. That means to aquire someone at the same level, it shouldn't cost much. Especially if they're a hidden gem like he seems to have been. One or two clever moves to grab guys who have that edge but just haven't gotten a fair shake from the team they're on and we could have a 4th line playing closer to 8 min instead of 4.

Not that this is necessarily easy to do, I just don't think it costs a lot.

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03-18-2013, 10:11 AM
  #300
Gump Hasek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Results

Shot attempts for/against with Wright on ice:

OTT: 6/19. -13
TOR: 14/9. +5
NYR: 4/21. -17
TOR: 12/7. +5

TOT: 36/56. -20

Heavier at the expense of being outplayed is a terrible idea, plus Burmi is far from a null physically. Better players and better results make for a better team.


I really like James Wright and I appreciate his hustle, but he is second worst on the team in both shot +/- and goal +/-. That isn't good.

I prefer a line and a team that generally outchances the opposition over one that gets killed.
Here are some recent numbers. The Jets are 3-1 in Burmistrov's absence. They are also 3-1 with Wright in the lineup during the same period.

They lack depth, obviously, and always have. Perhaps they should make a move to boost their bottom six depth by moving a 175 game vet that has yet to clue into the desires of his employers and as well to his job requirements, essentially.

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