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Old
03-18-2013, 03:20 AM
  #726
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"Hey ref, is is legal to use three hands on the stick?"
why not dude? ))

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Old
03-18-2013, 05:51 AM
  #727
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Exactly, its a matter of want. Right now they dont want to.

It it stupid to suggest that top European 1st world economies such as Sweden or Finland
cant afford to sponsor a team in the 2nd best league in the world. Especially since it is not some obscure sport, but a top national sport in the country.
So when this second wave of expansions joins(and succeeds), I think that many people will want it, or seriously consider it.
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You need to check up on the condition of Finnish economy and sports sponsorship before you start making such statements. Though those two aspects are much better in Sweden, the same applies there as in Finland. Fans don't want it. In Finland the only possible candidates, HIFK and Jokerit care enough/too much about their fans to do something so major against their will.
On my hand I don't think the economy, sponsorship and budget would be any problem at all. Metmag is right there of course.

But what Jussi says are also partly true in my view. A big problem would be the fans and the regular Northern-European. Changes are always looked upon as a bad thing. People are always against it. And the most hardcore fans in the respective league only wants to see his/her team play against X number of Finnish or Swedish teams just like they have always been doing.

But I also believe that most fans would still support their club in a new league + that they would find even more new fans across their own country and city etc.

I believe for KHL to successfully find a team that would be willing to leave either two leagues the best way is to go with already 'radical' clubs. In Sweden you have Malmö Redhawks. Most Swedish people look at this club and think that they are crazy with all of their new plans. A second to best choice would be Leksand, also quite radical and spends money on all kinds of stuff and they want nothing more than to play in the Swedish Elitserien. But they have tried for soon to be 10 years with no success to get there. Leksand would be a good choice. And since Djurgården missed their chance to get up in Elitserien, it could be wise of KHL to contact them with some proposal.

In Finland I would suggest teams from Mestis, or perhaps Espoo Blues in SM-liiga.

I have a difficult time trying to figure out a team in Elitserien that would join KHL any time soon.

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03-18-2013, 06:04 AM
  #728
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Most Swedish people look at this club and think that they are crazy with all of their new plans.
what plans?

I dont think there is a chance in near future swedish Allsvenskan team to join KHL. Swedish hockey federation would not allow it.

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:12 AM
  #729
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On my hand I don't think the economy, sponsorship and budget would be any problem at all. Metmag is right there of course.

But what Jussi says are also partly true in my view. A big problem would be the fans and the regular Northern-European. Changes are always looked upon as a bad thing. People are always against it. And the most hardcore fans in the respective league only wants to see his/her team play against X number of Finnish or Swedish teams just like they have always been doing.

But I also believe that most fans would still support their club in a new league + that they would find even more new fans across their own country and city etc.

I believe for KHL to successfully find a team that would be willing to leave either two leagues the best way is to go with already 'radical' clubs. In Sweden you have Malmö Redhawks. Most Swedish people look at this club and think that they are crazy with all of their new plans. A second to best choice would be Leksand, also quite radical and spends money on all kinds of stuff and they want nothing more than to play in the Swedish Elitserien. But they have tried for soon to be 10 years with no success to get there. Leksand would be a good choice. And since Djurgården missed their chance to get up in Elitserien, it could be wise of KHL to contact them with some proposal.

In Finland I would suggest teams from Mestis, or perhaps Espoo Blues in SM-liiga.

I have a difficult time trying to figure out a team in Elitserien that would join KHL any time soon.
There are barely any teams in Mestis capable of coming up with a budget for SM-Liiga level requirements. Kookoo is the only with an arena of plus 5000 (theirs is 6000). There is no way any team in Mestis could join KHL. They would require a foreign backer to fund basically everything. And since Kookoo is the only one with an adequately sized arena, the bigger problem is the fans alarming lack of interest on the team. Hardly anyone remembers when was the last time that arena was sold out since their attendance average isn't even best in Mestis (barely above 2000).

Espoo Blues have just changed ownership and are very tight with their budget. The previous owner Jussi Salonoja (who's still a minority owner) had discussions about it but the biggest obstacles were Russians taking 70% ownership of the club which was a definite no-no and the KHL people doing a no-show when Salonoja travelled to Russia to meet them.

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:31 AM
  #730
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There are barely any teams in Mestis capable of coming up with a budget for SM-Liiga level requirements. Kookoo is the only with an arena of plus 5000 (theirs is 6000). There is no way any team in Mestis could join KHL. They would require a foreign backer to fund basically everything. And since Kookoo is the only one with an adequately sized arena, the bigger problem is the fans alarming lack of interest on the team. Hardly anyone remembers when was the last time that arena was sold out since their attendance average isn't even best in Mestis (barely above 2000).
This way that you are thinking now is what most people in Northern Europe do. You look at the Mestis clubs and think "they have this budget and this roster now, so they will have no chance to compete with teams in SM-liiga". Yes?

But, if a Mestis team would get a spot in SM-liiga, they would get more and better sponsors, more fans would come and see the games and they would get better players for their team.

The same way goes for a team joining the KHL.

And the problem as I see it, lays much in Northern Europeans that think the same way like you do now. You can't see a big change happening and you only see the negative aspects of it all.

Do you honestly believe that a Mestis club could not get better sponsors if they played in the worlds next best league, above the Finnish national league, and that fans that thinks Mestis is boring and won't attend the games would feel the same way about KHL?

Also Arena size is not much of a problem at all. New arenas can be built and existing arenas can be upgraded.

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Old
03-18-2013, 10:52 AM
  #731
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A drop of ink in the pool of pure water: Stavanger Oilers officials disclaim the fact of discussions with the KHL. http://rsport.ru/hockey/20130318/651869251.html

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:19 AM
  #732
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I believe for KHL to successfully find a team that would be willing to leave either two leagues the best way is to go with already 'radical' clubs. In Sweden you have Malmö Redhawks. Most Swedish people look at this club and think that they are crazy with all of their new plans. A second to best choice would be Leksand, also quite radical and spends money on all kinds of stuff and they want nothing more than to play in the Swedish Elitserien. But they have tried for soon to be 10 years with no success to get there. Leksand would be a good choice. And since Djurgården missed their chance to get up in Elitserien, it could be wise of KHL to contact them with some proposal.
The only reason any of those clubs would even consider joining KHL is because they as you mentioned, are out of the 1st division. If they were all in Elitserien they'd laugh and hang up. Now they use this as some sort of "get us back or we'll leave" type of deal, because it would be, well I wouldn't say a death blow, but it would hurt swedish hockey a LOT to lose Djurgården, Malmö and Leksand.

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:38 AM
  #733
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The only reason any of those clubs would even consider joining KHL is because they as you mentioned, are out of the 1st division. If they were all in Elitserien they'd laugh and hang up. Now they use this as some sort of "get us back or we'll leave" type of deal, because it would be, well I wouldn't say a death blow, but it would hurt swedish hockey a LOT to lose Djurgården, Malmö and Leksand.
I see you, but what is better for swedish hockey? 1 To lose one or more club for KHL? 2 Or to lose all good players who would play in Gdansk, Oslo, Helsinki, Kopenhagen, Hamburg ... just an example. You know, it is not coincidence that rumours of joining clubs are from these countries. IMO KHL does not want swedish club anymore, it is enough to create clubs in Norway, Finland, Poland (negotiatons/luring in progress) etc which will sign best players from Elitserien.. Would be a problem for swedish players to play for norwegian etc club if get paid much higher? I dont think so

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:48 AM
  #734
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I see you, but what is better for swedish hockey? 1 To lose one or more club for KHL? 2 Or to lose all good players who would play in Gdansk, Oslo, Helsinki, Kopenhagen, Hamburg ... just an example. You know, it is not coincidence that rumours of joining clubs are from these countries. IMO KHL does not want swedish club anymore, it is enough to create clubs in Norway, Finland, Poland (negotiatons/luring in progress) etc which will sign best players from Elitserien.. Would be a problem for swedish players to play for norwegian etc club if get paid much higher? I dont think so
How is 1 and 2 even related?

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:07 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
How is 1 and 2 even related?
Simple. Swedish club/s can join KHL or not. If they joined, it would not be 5+ swedish clubs in KHL but only 1-3 IMO. If they did not join and clubs from Norway etc joined, it would mean that many players of Elitserien would join norwegian etc KHL club. At least players from Norway playing SEL + many Swedes.

Next summer will be interesting if Gdansk joins. I expect a few SEL players here.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:20 PM
  #736
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Simple. Swedish club/s can join KHL or not. If they joined, it would not be 5+ swedish clubs in KHL but only 1-3 IMO. If they did not join and clubs from Norway etc joined, it would mean that many players of Elitserien would join norwegian etc KHL club. At least players from Norway playing SEL + many Swedes.

Next summer will be interesting if Gdansk joins. I expect a few SEL players here.
That's not what you wrote. You wrote "1 To lose one or more club for KHL? 2 Or to lose all good players who would play in Gdansk, Oslo, Helsinki, Kopenhagen, Hamburg ... just an example."

Meaning: If we send 1-3 clubs to KHL, you won't sign the best swedish players. If that's not what you ment, you have to try harder to get your point out. You gave us a choice, send a few clubs or lose players, meaning both would not happen.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:36 PM
  #737
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That's not what you wrote. You wrote "1 To lose one or more club for KHL? 2 Or to lose all good players who would play in Gdansk, Oslo, Helsinki, Kopenhagen, Hamburg ... just an example."

Meaning: If we send 1-3 clubs to KHL, you won't sign the best swedish players. If that's not what you ment, you have to try harder to get your point out. You gave us a choice, send a few clubs or lose players, meaning both would not happen.
I think the point he was trying to make was, that you either have a Swedish club in the KHL and have your top players play there, or choose not to have a club and see your top players leave to neighboring countries like Norway or Poland(if they join)

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:41 PM
  #738
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I don't get the idea. KHL is planning to have teams in markets with close to 0 hockey interest, meaning who the hell will want to sponsor a team like that? Close to all money will have to be given to them by the league/tv deal. Not only will some of those clubs apparantly be in cities where the scandinavian players would not want to live unless they get overpaid by a lot, is the KHL this wealthy, can they support clubs that will go with huge - each year for a lot of years?

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03-18-2013, 12:47 PM
  #739
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I don't get the idea. KHL is planning to have teams in markets with close to 0 hockey interest, meaning who the hell will want to sponsor a team like that? Close to all money will have to be given to them by the league/tv deal. Not only will some of those clubs apparantly be in cities where the scandinavian players would not want to live unless they get overpaid by a lot, is the KHL this wealthy, can they support clubs that will go with huge - each year for a lot of years?
Well, some people might even think living in places like Gdansk, Milan or Zagreb is nicer than living in Karlstad or the ghetto that Malmö is. But who knows?

PS:

Regarding interest in hockey. Norway has a lot of potential for a top hockey team and so does Poland. Both have a rather low-level hockey league compared to other top leagues in Europe but they have enthusiastic fans. In Zagreb for example hockey is getting more and more attention as sports no.1 too.

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03-18-2013, 12:49 PM
  #740
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The only reason any of those clubs would even consider joining KHL is because they as you mentioned, are out of the 1st division. If they were all in Elitserien they'd laugh and hang up. Now they use this as some sort of "get us back or we'll leave" type of deal, because it would be, well I wouldn't say a death blow, but it would hurt swedish hockey a LOT to lose Djurgården, Malmö and Leksand.
I dont think it would hurt Swedish hockey in any way to have a club or two in the KHL.

Your use of the word 'lose' is controversial to say the least. First of all I think it is alot more beneficial for Swedish hockey to have Malmo in the KHL rather than dwelling the 2nd division for years like they have been doing.

But even if we leave all the Swedish teams the way they are, for the sake of argument, who gave you the impression that it has to be a previously established club?

HC Lev Prague is doing great, In fact despite its 7000+ average attendance this season, both other clubs Slavia and Sparta Prague went up in attendance aswell! so no fans were disrupted or stolen. They simply increased the level and interest in hockey.
I would be very interested to hear what the Czech republic 'lost' and how it hurt them. Also I would like to hear how Sweden and Czech Republic are so radically different as part of the reason why it would work in Czech but not in Sweden.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:52 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Well, some people might even think living in places like Gdansk, Milan or Zagreb is nicer than living in Karlstad or the ghetto that Malmö is. But who knows?

PS:

Regarding interest in hockey. Norway has a lot of potential for a top hockey team and so does Poland. Both have a rather low-level hockey league compared to other top leagues in Europe but they have enthusiastic fans. In Zagreb for example hockey is getting more and more attention as sports no.1 too.
I worded it wrong, it would hurt the SEL. Like I said, if Malmö, Leksand or Djurgården was in the SEL, they would not consider joining the KHL, for even 1 second. Those 3 clubs, especially Malmö which is further away from advancing, is desperate to join the big leagues.


Last edited by stv11: 03-18-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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Old
03-18-2013, 12:55 PM
  #742
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That's not what you wrote. You wrote "1 To lose one or more club for KHL? 2 Or to lose all good players who would play in Gdansk, Oslo, Helsinki, Kopenhagen, Hamburg ... just an example."

Meaning: If we send 1-3 clubs to KHL, you won't sign the best swedish players. If that's not what you ment, you have to try harder to get your point out. You gave us a choice, send a few clubs or lose players, meaning both would not happen.
Maybe I was not exact. I mean that european hockey has changed since 2008 and another changes will come sooner than later. Swedish clubs dont want to join KHL, but top players of Elitserien can be lured by KHL teams. It is only a matter of time and salary of course. IMO KHL wants to create its clubs in Finland, Norway, Poland (very realistic), maybe Germany, Denmark. Many norwegian players play Elitserien. KHL clubs from Norway, Germany or Denmark would not skate only Norwegians, Germans, Danes but also Swedes... who play Elitserien now. Even Zagreb or Milan can lure Swedes (not so many as Norwegian club of course).

Elitserien clubs can choose, if want to join KHL or not. If they join, they will play KHL and sign many Elitserien players from clubs which stay in SEL (+ swedish guys in NA). If they dont join KHL, will play Elitserien but wont be able to keep its best players who chose KHL club in Norway etc instead. What is better for swedish hockey?

I know what is mentality of nordic countries, I see it. On the other hand there is a "hockey war". IMO Swedes dont have any chance to challenge KHL, no money. I say you, current average budgets of KHL clubs are 10-20 mil euro now but will increse to average 30-40+ mil euro in next decade or two. I can not imagine that swedish league can challange it, especially if they lose its best players for NHL, KHL.. because they will, it is reality, sad reality for swedish hockey from my point of view. I accept another point of view as well.

Of course, this dont have to happen... all depends on KHL´s expansion and global economy (btw, follow russian central bank´s changes)

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03-18-2013, 12:55 PM
  #743
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HC Lev Prague is doing great, In fact despite its 7000+ average attendance this season, both other clubs Slavia and Sparta Prague went up in attendance aswell! so no fans were disrupted or stolen. They simply increased the level and interest in hockey.
I would be very interested to hear what the Czech republic 'lost' and how it hurt them. Also I would like to hear how Sweden and Czech Republic are so radically different as part of the reason why it would work in Czech but not in Sweden.
IMHO I think general interest in hockey has increased a lot in Czech Republic. Not only because of Lev playing in KHL but also because of Znojmo playing in EBEL (what many people forget).

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03-18-2013, 12:56 PM
  #744
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I think the point he was trying to make was, that you either have a Swedish club in the KHL and have your top players play there, or choose not to have a club and see your top players leave to neighboring countries like Norway or Poland(if they join)
THIS

thx

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03-18-2013, 12:58 PM
  #745
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I know what is mentality of nordic countries, I see it. On the other hand there is a "hockey war". IMO Swedes dont have any chance to challenge KHL, no money. I say you, current average budgets of KHL clubs are 10-20 mil euro now but will increse to average 30-40+ mil euro in next decade or two. I can not imagine that swedish league can challange it, especially if they lose its best players for NHL, KHL.. because they will, it is reality, sad reality for swedish hockey from my point of view. I accept another point of view as well.
If the budget is true then SEL can already not challenge it, because 10mil euro is 2x the average budget of SEL teams, with only 1 team being slightly above it. Odd that SEL has any good players and KHL has very few teams better than the SEL teams.


Last edited by stv11: 03-18-2013 at 05:07 PM. Reason: politics
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03-18-2013, 01:10 PM
  #746
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Good thing neither the arena, or anyone who makes more than 2,000 euros/month has any reason to go there. And if people gets stabbed everyday in Hamburg, it's 100 times worse than the worst part of Malmö.



If the budget is true then SEL can already not challenge it, because 10mil euro is 2x the average budget of SEL teams, with only 1 team being slightly above it. Odd that SEL has any good players and KHL has very few teams better than the SEL teams.
Everybody knows that this years KHL bottom dwellers Riga, Amur, Yugra, and even Vityaz can dust any top Eliteserien team at any given moment.

Never mind Dynamo Moscow, SKA, and Ak-Bars


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03-18-2013, 01:15 PM
  #747
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don't get the idea. KHL is planning to have teams in markets with close to 0 hockey interest, meaning who the hell will want to sponsor a team like that? Close to all money will have to be given to them by the league/tv deal.
A company which want to establish itself in russian market? Oil company which cooperate with Russians? Russians? Money is not a problem.

If KHL wanted, it would be able to match NHL´s budgets tommorow. Even KHL clubs could have bigger budgets.But KHL does not want it, not now.

Quote:
I would be very interested to hear what the Czech republic 'lost' and how it hurt them. Also I would like to hear how Sweden and Czech Republic are so radically different as part of the reason why it would work in Czech but not in Sweden.
It depends who you talk to. If ultras fans of Sparta who has anti-russian attitude, he/she will tell you KHL is cancer of czech hockey. If fans of hockey who does not have anti-russian attitude, he/she tell you that is happy for great hockey games in Prague. The same about Bratislava.

IMO Swedes are more conservative than Czechs. Prague is center of Russians in Europe. Russians have big lobby/influence in Czech rep. That is one of reasons why HC Lev is succesfull. I am not sure the same enviroment is somewhere in Sweden.

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03-18-2013, 01:20 PM
  #748
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If the budget is true then SEL can already not challenge it, because 10mil euro is 2x the average budget of SEL teams, with only 1 team being slightly above it. Odd that SEL has any good players and KHL has very few teams better than the SEL teams.
minimal budget of KHL clubs is around 10 mil euro (at least 6-7 mil euro for salaries), Lev Prague had cca 19 mil euro, Donbass Donetsk had 20-25 mil euro, some poor russian clubs less, some rich two or more time higher budget (cca 40-60 mil euro)

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03-18-2013, 01:26 PM
  #749
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Everybody knows that this years KHL bottom dwellers Riga, Amur, Yugra, and even Vityaz can dust any top Eliteserien team at any given moment.

Never mind Dynamo Moscow, SKA, and Ak-Bars
I'm not saying the top KHL teams are close to top SEL teams, they are not. But with a budget like that, not a single SEL team should be better than KHL teams, which is not the case. [mod]

Quote:
It depends who you talk to. If ultras fans of Sparta who has anti-russian attitude, he/she will tell you KHL is cancer of czech hockey. If fans of hockey who does not have anti-russian attitude, he/she tell you that is happy for great hockey games in Prague. The same about Bratislava.

IMO Swedes are more conservative than Czechs. Prague is center of Russians in Europe. Russians have big lobby/influence in Czech rep. That is one of reasons why HC Lev is succesfull. I am not sure the same enviroment is somewhere in Sweden.
The attitude in Sweden is that Sweden does not care about KHL. It's a league that gets 0 spotlight in the news. I'm not saying NHL gets much, because NHLs spotlight is minimal too, but KHL gets 0 unless a plane crashes. There's no anti-russia attitude, it's simply as I said, people don't care about KHL, and we don't want to lose our rivalries. Noone would go watch a game against Bratislava or Prag or whatever, because there is no rivalry. If KHL would take most of the clubs in SEL, form a nordic division with finnish, norwegian and danish clubs, the fans could be open to talk.


Last edited by stv11: 03-18-2013 at 05:09 PM. Reason: removed personal attack
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03-18-2013, 01:38 PM
  #750
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I'm not saying the top KHL teams are close to top SEL teams, they are not. But with a budget like that, not a single SEL team should be better than KHL teams, which is not the case. [mod]
[mod] You stated that 'KHL has very few teams better than the SEL teams', when in fact it is quite the opposite.
Its hard to predict how exactly you expected me to interpret a nonsensical statement.


Last edited by stv11: 03-18-2013 at 05:09 PM. Reason: removed personal attack
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