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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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Old
03-18-2013, 01:36 AM
  #26
WarriorOfGandhi
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Also, only one playoff appearance in five years for Sherman/Sacco.
four, but the principle is pretty much the same

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03-18-2013, 01:43 AM
  #27
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I wasn't sure whether to post this here, or the trade rumors thread where I was talking about how the Avs can build a pretty damn good team if they can get Staz and O'Reilly signed long term around $5M per, but I thought this thread might be better to point out why I think Sherman has done a good job building the core of this team with Duchene, Landy, EJ. and Varly, and then building around it with good complimentary pieces like PAP, McGinn, Downie, Mitchell and such, leaving room for the last couple big pieces needed.

Here's just a fantasy look at a potential roster with cap hits for 2014-15 if the cap goes back up to what it is this year at $70.2M.

Remember this is just a fantasy roster. Don't focus on the names. Focus on the cap hits for the top players, and you can see that you can build a pretty damn good team. Especially if the cap continues to go up year after year which would just give the Avs more room.

Just a couple of notes, I've moved out David Jones somehow. Zanon walked as a UFA. Pominville resigned long term for his current salary as a soon to be 32 year old. Downie got a bit of a raise as a UFA with a decent amount of injury riddled seasons. Mitchell got a bit raise off his $1,1M, but feel free to replace him with whatever other type of player at that salary. Bordy and Olver got mini raises. Hunwick and Jiggy would be UFA's, but feel free to replace their names with any other player in that lesser role, who very likely could come cheaper. And McGinn and Landy got fair raises IMO. Everyone else is under contract at the numbers listed.

This is from CapGeek's Cap Calculator:

2014-15 Avalanche

FORWARDS

Jamie McGinn ($3.500m) / Matt Duchene ($6.000m) / P-A Parenteau ($4.000m)
Gabriel Landeskog ($5.000m) / Paul Stastny ($5.000m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
John Mitchell ($3.000m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($5.000m) / Steve Downie ($3.000m)
Patrick Bordeleau ($0.750m) / Brad Malone ($0.748m) / Cody McLeod ($1.150m)
Mitchell Heard ($0.925m) / Mark Olver ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Keith Yandle ($5.250m) / Erik Johnson ($3.750m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Seth Jones ($3.500m)
Ryan Wilson ($2.250m) / Shane O'Brien ($2.000m)
Matt Hunwick ($1.600m) /

GOALTENDERS

Semyon Varlamov ($5.000m)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($1.500m)

SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,573,125; BONUSES: $132,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $759,375

Remember, don't focus on the names or if it's likely they'll get them, just see that things are set up to be able to bring in some big money players, and give raises to the core guys at the same time. If they have to give Dutchy $6.5M they can work around that. If O'Reilly or Staz needs $5.25 or $5.5M they can work around that. If the LHD partner for EJ needs $6M they can work around that. If Staz won't resign at $5M, and/or O'Reilly needs more that's $5M from Stastny's salary to sign a center to play behind Dutchy and O'Reilly and they can do that. Or they can sign a cheaper guy and spread the money around more. If some of these other complimentary guys like McGinn, Mitchell, and Downie can't come at these prices, they can find ways to either give them a little more, or bring in good replacements at those prices.

Obviously if all of these situations needed more money it wouldn't work, but they are manageable given they can find cheaper versions of Jiggy and Hunwick, and the potential for the cap to be bigger and/or go up higher than the $70.2M this year.

This to me, even if you have to replace some of the other names with players that would come at these prices, it shows that this is the kind of lineup Sherman & Co are building toward with a mix of depth, top end talent, and reasonable prices. It all starts with building the basic core of center depth, a top pairing D, a #1 goalie, and then building around that with complimentary wingers.

They've done all that, and now they just need to find a way to fill out the finishing touches with some top end pieces in a scoring winger and another top pairing D, and they are set up financially to do so, even if they have to drop a bunch of money on the UFA market.

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03-18-2013, 02:20 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Also, only one playoff appearance in five years for Sherman/Sacco. The team was in a rebuilding stage so you can cut them a bit of slack but the Varly trade basically signaled the end of the rebuild. I can't remember but Sherman might have even said as much after he made the trade. If (when) we miss the playoffs this season, it'll be two straight years of missing the playoffs after the team was supposed to take the next step. I like Sherman but that's unacceptable.
It's only been four years and it'll be Colorado's third straight finish outside a playoff spot, but the point is taken.

Francois Giguere was given the boot after three seasons as GM, two of which were 95 point outings. Upper management has undoubtably had more patience the past four years, but it hasn't paid off - 124-122-27.

From the time Matt Duchene was drafted, the Avalanche could have had anyone running the show because four years later they're in the same exact spot: dead last.

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03-18-2013, 07:15 AM
  #29
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It's only been four years and it'll be Colorado's third straight finish outside a playoff spot, but the point is taken.

Francois Giguere was given the boot after three seasons as GM, two of which were 95 point outings. Upper management has undoubtably had more patience the past four years, but it hasn't paid off - 124-122-27.

From the time Matt Duchene was drafted, the Avalanche could have had anyone running the show because four years later they're in the same exact spot: dead last.
yes but now there is a future in the team.

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03-18-2013, 07:16 AM
  #30
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Can't really blame Sherman for lack of results when we basically have done a re-build now. We had NO future except maybe Stastny before.

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03-18-2013, 09:08 AM
  #31
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It was an anomaly but Kiszla's article was actually a good read.

Between the Ryan O'Reilly debacle and 17 losses in 27 games with a relatively healthy roster, there's more than enough justification to make a change.
He wanted both Burke and Roy. Just imagine what would happen if those guys tried to run a team together. Terrible Kiszla article just like always.

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03-18-2013, 11:00 AM
  #32
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So you give a guy the keys to rebuild the team, and just as it nears completion you can him? At least let him see if his efforts can bear fruit. If the roster stinks it up next season, by all means replace Sherman. But to do so now would be wrong-headed and pointless.

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03-18-2013, 11:12 AM
  #33
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Lacroix added, "Surrounded by a strong hockey staff and under my supervision, he will have all the necessary support to lead the Avalanche in this new direction."
This is the real issue.

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03-18-2013, 12:31 PM
  #34
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Ryan Kennedy ‏@THNRyanKennedy
Dang, Colorado's top four picks from the 2009 draft have already played for the #Avs : Duchene, O'Reilly, Elliott and Barrie.

Gotta say, that was a decent draft!

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03-18-2013, 12:36 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
Ryan Kennedy ‏@THNRyanKennedy
Dang, Colorado's top four picks from the 2009 draft have already played for the #Avs : Duchene, O'Reilly, Elliott and Barrie.

Gotta say, that was a decent draft!
All 4 will be in the NHL for a while as well. 2009 was a very good draft for us. Millan might make it 5 if he can carve out a backup role in the future somewhere.

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03-18-2013, 02:47 PM
  #36
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He wanted both Burke and Roy. Just imagine what would happen if those guys tried to run a team together. Terrible Kiszla article just like always.
The Avs might be successful?

Joe Sakic as GM and Roy as coach is a much more likely scenario.

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03-18-2013, 02:47 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
Ryan Kennedy ‏@THNRyanKennedy
Dang, Colorado's top four picks from the 2009 draft have already played for the #Avs : Duchene, O'Reilly, Elliott and Barrie.

Gotta say, that was a decent draft!
How ironic that it followed one of our worst, and yet it was THAT one HF chose to write an article about.

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03-20-2013, 04:19 PM
  #38
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Now 29th in league standings. If the season were to end today we'd be getting no lower than the 3rd overall pick.

I have run out of patience. This is not a rebuild, this is an organizational failure in all aspects. I don't mind telling anyone who wants to maintain that this has all gone according to some supposedly masterful plan that they're just plain wrong. The fact that they are now purposely tanking makes sense at this point, but shameful nonetheless.

If there is not a housecleaning done in the front office this offseason I'm not sure what to think. Again, a Sherman firing to me is meaningless--it has to be coupled with a Lacroix retirement/resignation for things to actually change.

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03-20-2013, 04:31 PM
  #39
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Next year is the limit for me. I fully accept us sucking this year. But after this summer... We really should be a playoff-team, certainly if we get a new coach.

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03-20-2013, 04:39 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
If there is not a housecleaning done in the front office this offseason I'm not sure what to think. Again, a Sherman firing to me is meaningless--it has to be coupled with a Lacroix retirement/resignation for things to actually change.
A Sherman firing makes no sense if you take out Lacroix.
We should give him a fair shake without PL in the background.

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03-20-2013, 04:42 PM
  #41
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A Sherman firing makes no sense if you take out Lacroix.
We should give him a fair shake without PL in the background.
He hasn't even done bad. A lot more positive moves than negative ones. Not every GM has that record.

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03-20-2013, 04:46 PM
  #42
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He hasn't even done bad. A lot more positive moves than negative ones. Not every GM has that record.
Greg from accounting has done a great job with where this team was. Joe Sacco though, has to go.

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03-20-2013, 04:57 PM
  #43
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A Sherman firing makes no sense if you take out Lacroix.
We should give him a fair shake without PL in the background.
I thought about this...but no. Sherman was the numbers guy when Giguere was handing out stupid contracts and iced a team with no cap space and no talent. Sherman was given the reins and while some of his trades individually have benefited the team short-term, it has still added up to a team in 29th place. He and Lacroix share blame on the ridiculous, stupid, and arrogant way they mishandled the O'Reilly situation as well. The way Sherman conducted himself during that presser just made me even more convinced that he's not the guy going forward. As for the EJ trade, still early to tell, but I don't like the way things are going so far. A lot of fans rightfully said that Sherman's legacy ultimately will be defined, fairly or not, on how he handles the O'Reilly holdout situation. Well, it ended up being an abject failure in almost every possible aspect. I don't think you keep a GM who fails that badly and that publicly and fails to show even the slightest bit of attrition for it. The O'Reilly debacle is not the sole reason why I think Sherman should lose his job, but it's the biggest reason.

Sherman gets praise for making some nice under-the-radar signings/pickups, but a big part of that is scouting, IMO the one and only part of this organization that has consistently done well the last few years. Pracey is the guy in charge of hiring those scouts and running that aspect of the department (along with, I guess, Craig Billington). Pracey has been the guy who has properly identified key players currently on this squad--it seems only natural that he's qualified to be the guy to make the final call on personnel decisions, including head coach.

You can blame some of Sherman's shortcomings on Lacroix's interference. How much of that I don't know though. But while I don't think Sherman's a Lacroix puppet, I do think he's a Lacroix stooge, and that's just another reason why I want him and the Lacroixs gone from this organization.

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03-20-2013, 05:09 PM
  #44
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Now 29th in league standings. If the season were to end today we'd be getting no lower than the 3rd overall pick.

I have run out of patience. This is not a rebuild, this is an organizational failure in all aspects. I don't mind telling anyone who wants to maintain that this has all gone according to some supposedly masterful plan that they're just plain wrong. The fact that they are now purposely tanking makes sense at this point, but shameful nonetheless.

If there is not a housecleaning done in the front office this offseason I'm not sure what to think. Again, a Sherman firing to me is meaningless--it has to be coupled with a Lacroix retirement/resignation for things to actually change.
Agreed, it's just a train wreck out there. Bottom line, this is just unacceptable in year 4. We've spent thread upon thread debating Sherman's individual moves but in the area that matters most, his tenure has been a complete failure. We need to start fresh with a culture change in management and a total house cleaning top to bottom. Until that happens I hold no optimism for this team.

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03-20-2013, 05:09 PM
  #45
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EJ trade is obviously questionable.

But I think he has done a fantastic job getting youth talent back into this team, and we have a ton of young talent to look forward to, which we didn't have before him. I also love how we have just stayed about the cap floor, not handing out any stupid contracts, we are in a re-build and want as much cap space as possible, cause when the time is right, we want to be able to spend. Which IMO is this summer. Then EJ, Varly, Landy, Duchene, O'Reilly and the rest are in the right age to start contending for real. I guess they could wait another year, but I would do it this year. Even though the free agency pool for d-man does not look good.

I know most of you don't like him. But I think he has almost done everything right in this re-build. We are in a great contractsituation and have a lot of young talent which we still haven't seen the best of.

Horrible timing to post this, since we have 4 straigt losses and any positive thought are basically forbidden on these boards. But I really like what Sherman has done regardless of the result in our most recent games.

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03-20-2013, 05:15 PM
  #46
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He hasn't even done bad. A lot more positive moves than negative ones. Not every GM has that record.
He hasn't even done bad? He's done horribly this season. And a lot of the "positive" ones are all still very debatable.

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Greg from accounting has done a great job with where this team was. Joe Sacco though, has to go.
Not good enough to where I think he deserves a pass on his recent and spectacular failures. Yes, the team, on paper at least, is more talented and younger than it was when it Dunked It For Duchene, but yet here we are watching the Suck It For Seth. How much has changed? Not enough, IMO.

I still say a lot of the talent currently on this roster is the result of great scouting and a great draft guru, not necessarily a great GM. The only thing Sherman and Lacroix have done right in that regard is stay the hell out of Pracey's way.

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03-20-2013, 05:20 PM
  #47
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He hasn't even done bad? He's done horribly this season. And a lot of the "positive" ones are all still very debatable.



Not good enough to where I think he deserves a pass on his recent and spectacular failures. Yes, the team, on paper at least, is more talented and younger than it was when it Dunked It For Duchene, but yet here we are watching the Suck It For Seth. How much has changed? Not enough, IMO.

I still say a lot of the talent currently on this roster is the result of great scouting and a great draft guru, not necessarily a great GM. The only thing Sherman and Lacroix have done right in that regard is stay the hell out of Pracey's way.
Are you ever going to give Sherman credit for his GOOD moves or are you only going to sit there and blame him for the few bad ones? Any positive move this team has made Pracy gets the credit. But the second something goes wrong, DEATH TO SHERMAN! Ever stop to think the team is run by committee? Decisions are made AS A GROUP, NOT individually. Pracy is as much to blame for the bad moves as the good moves.

If Sacco isn't gone this summer, then I'll join the fire Sherman bandwaggon. Until then...he's done a fantastic job of setting this team up for future success.

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03-20-2013, 05:23 PM
  #48
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EJ trade is obviously questionable.

But I think he has done a fantastic job getting youth talent back into this team, and we have a ton of young talent to look forward to, which we didn't have before him. I also love how we have just stayed about the cap floor, not handing out any stupid contracts, we are in a re-build and want as much cap space as possible, cause when the time is right, we want to be able to spend. Which IMO is this summer. Then EJ, Varly, Landy, Duchene, O'Reilly and the rest are in the right age to start contending for real. I guess they could wait another year, but I would do it this year. Even though the free agency pool for d-man does not look good.

I know most of you don't like him. But I think he has almost done everything right in this re-build. We are in a great contractsituation and have a lot of young talent which we still haven't seen the best of.

Horrible timing to post this, since we have 4 straigt losses and any positive thought are basically forbidden on these boards. But I really like what Sherman has done regardless of the result in our most recent games.
Really? Sherman made O'Reilly sit for two months to keep his sacred salary structure intact, and yet he's the guy who will be paying O'Reilly $9 million dollars when all is said and done. Great contract situation? There are certainly worse ones for sure, but Sherman just made his demonstrably worse for no reason whatsoever.

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03-20-2013, 05:28 PM
  #49
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I believe a team of Sakic, Pracey, Billington, and Sherman deserve a chance to run this team free and clear of PL before anyone gets removed.

I also have a feeling that Sacco has been given free reign to run this team this year how he sees fit. In order to show what he can do he is getting to dictate who plays, who is scratched, and who goes up and down from LEM. It has exposed his ineptitude and leaves no reason for him to be retained. At least I hope that is the case.

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03-20-2013, 05:33 PM
  #50
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Are you ever going to give Sherman credit for his GOOD moves or are you only going to sit there and blame him for the few bad ones? Any positive move this team has made Pracy gets the credit. But the second something goes wrong, DEATH TO SHERMAN! Ever stop to think the team is run by committee? Decisions are made AS A GROUP, NOT individually. Pracy is as much to blame for the bad moves as the good moves.

If Sacco isn't gone this summer, then I'll join the fire Sherman bandwaggon. Until then...he's done a fantastic job of setting this team up for future success.
If this team is run by committee, well, that might be the problem right there--much like the Leafs had to get permission from the MLSE board to do anything while John Ferguson, Jr. was in charge.

I've given credit to Sherman in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Just saying that finds like John Mitchell in free agency have as much to do with good scouting as it does a good GM. But Sherman is the guy who ultimately decided to offer the guy a contract, so he deserves credit for that. Same goes for Parenteau. Hell, I'll give him credit for Palushaj as well. I'm still undecided on his two major moves though, those being the EJ and Varly trades. I've voiced my opinion ad nauseam on those elsewhere so I won't go into them here.

I don't think my histrionics are quite as over-the-top as you're implying, but I am definitely pissed off at this organization, I won't deny that. Some of you can overlook Sherman's mistakes. I can't, and I won't. Not any longer. This team shouldn't be where it is at present--and everyone from the coach on up deserves the blame for that.

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