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Old
03-18-2013, 12:23 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
The guy is dominating the AHL. How is he going to learn to get stronger on the puck against a bunch of guys he's toying with? He's gotta take the next step and adjust, not play down a level.
Hit the weights or just wait till he comea up full-time? The fact of the matter is he gets knocked off the puck too much right now.

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03-18-2013, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
You apologists are creating false choices.
Apologists? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right on, man, right on. You act like reasonably justifying the decisions of Detroit Hockey Ops is a sin... well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

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But guys like Tatar have been there for years and shown they can not only compete there but dominate. Nyquist has shown similar things. That's not rushing your young players right out of the game. And Tatar STILL isn't with the team full time.
Tatar didn't dominate his first season, and the last two he didn't break 60 points (57 and 58 respectively), and has 41 this year (and 7 with the Wings); Nyquist scored 58 points last year, and has 60 so far this year. It seems they've proven themselves up to this point, and Tatar having spent more time in the AHL has gotten more of a shot. It's pretty much the way things have always worked.

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No one said for Nyquist and Tatar and Smith to skip the AHL.

...

Apparently it's wanting to rush them if you think a couple of seasons in the AHL playing at a superior level than the competition is enough to show you deserve a shot at the NHL.
They'll be with the team NEXT season, you know, the one with more than 48 games? Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Why are there so many people pissed off that guys who are just out of college or just finding their legs in the AHL aren't up with the team full time?

And now you're just putting words in my mouth, which is not really necessary.



Last edited by RedMenace: 03-18-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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03-18-2013, 12:27 PM
  #28
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Babcock has made it very clear he's not going to play Nyquist in a bottom six role, imo. Either they trade him for defense or make room, this is just silly.

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03-18-2013, 12:31 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Apologists? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right on, man, right on.

Tatar didn't dominate his first season, and the last two he didn't break 60 points (57 and 58 respectively), and has 41 this year (and 7 with the Wings); Nyquist scored 58 points last year, and has 60 so far this year. It seems they've proven themselves up to this point, and Tatar having spent more time in the AHL has gotten more of a shot. It's pretty much the way things have always worked.

They'll be with the team NEXT season, you know, the one with more than 48 games? Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Why are there so many people pissed off that guys who are just out of college or just finding their legs in the AHL aren't up with the team full time?



Oh, now you're just putting words in my mouth, and that's not really necessary.

Nyquist has been out of college for almost 2 years, and both he and Tatar have "found their legs" in the AHL. In fact, they're dominating the AHL.

I don't care if its only a 48 game season, they are some of our best forwards in the orginization - they should be in Deroit NOW - regardless of how long this season is.

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03-18-2013, 12:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by GT500x View Post
Hit the weights or just wait till he comea up full-time? The fact of the matter is he gets knocked off the puck too much right now.
The only way for him to get better is to learn what he needs to do against the best competition in the world. You don't get that playing in the AHL forever. He also might be lacking in confidence when he comes up, butt hat's purely speculation.

Tatar didn't impress all that much the first couple games, but he adjusted and his confidence grew and then he played really well. I believe you would see the same thing with Nyquist, or at least management and to a lesser extent the fans would know where he stands. He will either pull a Datsyuk and get stronger and translate his game to be successful at the NHL level, develop into a 2nd/3rd liner, or not make it at all.

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03-18-2013, 12:35 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Nyquist has been out of college for almost 2 years, and both he and Tatar have "found their legs" in the AHL. In fact, they're dominating the AHL.
Do you honestly think a year and a half is any indicator at all of what kind of hockey player someone is at the "professional" level? Playing against men and some of the most skilled players on this side of the world? One and a half seasons is enough to judge?

Okay, if you say so. Personally, I'd like to see 2+ years, but that would make some folks here absolutely riot.

They will be in the NHL right after this season of uncertainty is over. The Wings know what they have with those two, which is why they should just finish out their seasons with an AHL Championship.

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I don't care if its only a 48 game season, they are some of our best forwards in the orginization - they should be in Deroit NOW - regardless of how long this season is.
Apparently, us "apologists" don't agree with you. Let them finish dominating the AHL this year, and give them a full camp and season next year. It's not that far away.

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03-18-2013, 12:37 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
You apologists are creating false choices. No one said for Nyquist and Tatar and Smith to skip the AHL.

But guys like Tatar have been there for years and shown they can not only compete there but dominate. Nyquist has shown similar things. That's not rushing your young players right out of the game. And Tatar STILL isn't with the team full time.

Apparently it's wanting to rush them if you think a couple of seasons in the AHL playing at a superior level than the competition is enough to show you deserve a shot at the NHL.
Tatar didn't really click into the player he is until late last year. Offensively from an IQ standpoint he was ready pretty early. But virtually everything else about him and the commitment all over the rink has really taken off since last January.

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03-18-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Apologists? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right on, man, right on.

Tatar didn't dominate his first season, and the last two he didn't break 60 points (57 and 58 respectively), and has 41 this year (and 7 with the Wings); Nyquist scored 58 points last year, and has 60 so far this year. It seems they've proven themselves up to this point, and Tatar having spent more time in the AHL has gotten more of a shot. It's pretty much the way things have always worked.



They'll be with the team NEXT season, you know, the one with more than 48 games? Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Why are there so many people pissed off that guys who are just out of college or just finding their legs in the AHL aren't up with the team full time?

And now you're just putting words in my mouth, which is not really necessary.
I calls em like I sees em.

Nyquist is better than a PPG pace down there. Tatar has been producing solidly for four years now. 32 points in 58 games your first year is not bad at all. The thing about "next season" is that we've been hearing that forever. And Jarnkrok is coming over next year and supposed to make a push for the team. We still have a bunch of useless vets signed. Andersson is proving he belongs. So, what's going to happen to make guaranteed room for those guys, "next year"?

I'm actually not putting words in your mouth. I was just pointing out how absurd you sounded.

This is about fielding the best team. Tatar makes the team better. Period. He is better than Miller, Eaves, Cleary, Abby, Sammy. He's shown that at the NHL level now. I thought players earned their spots? I guess that wasn't so true.
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Let them finish dominating the AHL this year, and give them a full camp and season next year. It's not that far away.
You don't get better by dominating people you're clearly better than. Which is kind of what "leading the league in scoring" means. You get better by playing against better competition.

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Tatar didn't really click into the player he is until late last year. Offensively from an IQ standpoint he was ready pretty early. But virtually everything else about him and the commitment all over the rink has really taken off since last January.
If you say so. He's always seemed pretty committed to me. And his points have always been there.

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03-18-2013, 12:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Right, and they will be in the NHL right after this season of uncertainty is over. The Wings know what they have with those two, which is why they should just finish out their seasons with an AHL Championship.
Finishing out their season in the AHL, even with playoffs, isn't going to help them progress near what they could be in Detroit.


Quote:
Apparently, us "apologists" don't agree with you. Let them finish dominating the AHL this year, and give them a full camp and season next year. It's not that far away.
But what's the point, why not let them accustom themselves to the NHL right now during this season? Why wait and prolong the inevitable?

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03-18-2013, 12:40 PM
  #35
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Meh, if we were losing games or were something like 3-7 in our last 10 I'd be more upset but we're winning games and it doesn't make sense to play Nyquist in the bottom 6. He does need to get stronger but he's dominating the AHL, he's one of like 3 or 4 players above a point per game down there.

As long as we continue to win I don't really care who plays.

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03-18-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Babcock has made it very clear he's not going to play Nyquist in a bottom six role, imo. Either they trade him for defense or make room, this is just silly.
You have what I think is really happening here in my opinion. One of Tatar or Nyquist isn't going to be Red Wings property by April 3rd. It better not be a stupid rental deal if that is the case.

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03-18-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
The only way for him to get better is to learn what he needs to do against the best competition in the world. You don't get that playing in the AHL forever. He also might be lacking in confidence when he comes up, butt hat's purely speculation.

Tatar didn't impress all that much the first couple games, but he adjusted and his confidence grew and then he played really well. I believe you would see the same thing with Nyquist, or at least management and to a lesser extent the fans would know where he stands. He will either pull a Datsyuk and get stronger and translate his game to be successful at the NHL level, develop into a 2nd/3rd liner, or not make it at all.
If this was an 82 game season or the Wings were going to start the rebuild - which I would do soon if I was in management - I would agree with you but neither of those are the case.. Any coach and GM in the league would have sent Nyquist down, slowing his development but giving the team a better chance to win.

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03-18-2013, 12:46 PM
  #38
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If this was an 82 game season or the Wings were going to start the rebuild - which I would do soon if I was in management - I would agree with you but neither of those are the case.. Any coach and GM in the league would have sent Nyquist down, slowing his development but giving the team a better chance to win.
My point being, just leave him down there.

Or bring him up for ten games, which they could have with the disaster of a second line that was, and see what he does in the top six. Then send him down, having learned something.

It's the up and down for a game here or there that I don't agree with.

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03-18-2013, 12:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Babcock has made it very clear he's not going to play Nyquist in a bottom six role, imo. Either they trade him for defense or make room, this is just silly.
Agreed I think your right I have a feeling that Nyquist will eventualy be traded for Defensive help.

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03-18-2013, 12:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
You have what I think is really happening here in my opinion. One of Tatar or Nyquist isn't going to be Red Wings property by April 3rd. It better not be a stupid rental deal if that is the case.
I don't think anything is going to happen with the two before summer considering they're still free to go up and down like nothing. If they get Nyquist signed to one of these cheapish three year deals he'll turn into a good trade asset if he can't make the team here.

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03-18-2013, 12:49 PM
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Helm's coming back, what else were they going to do?
They could have sent down Andersson. Instead of keeping Nyquist up and having 4 centers, they sent him down and now have 5 centers. It's likely that Andersson will play the wing now instead of Nyquist.

That doesn't seem weird to you?

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03-18-2013, 12:55 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
My point being, just leave him down there.

Or bring him up for ten games, which they could have with the disaster of a second line that was, and see what he does in the top six. Then send him down, having learned something.

It's the up and down for a game here or there that I don't agree with.
As others have said, I think Nyquist and Tatar were being evaluated, and if you ask me Babcock was more impressed by Tatar. Nyquist could be traded soon and when you compare him to coming prospects he looks expendable. If I were to trade anyone it would be Datsyuk and I'd start the rebuild but I get the feeling that the Wings will make a trade and overpay for a shut-down defenseman and then go for the cup this year.

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03-18-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
They could have sent down Andersson. Instead of keeping Nyquist up and having 4 centers, they sent him down and now have 5 centers. It's likely that Andersson will play the wing now instead of Nyquist.

That doesn't seem weird to you?
Anderson is harder to knock off the puck so in makes sense in the short-term.

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03-18-2013, 12:57 PM
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i am not gonna say its right or wrong but it sure seems like some people have no clue what they're talking about.

what was detroit going to do? That statement almost makes it sound like they had no choice, as in no other choice. Just this one, this was it. Thats bulls... and everyone knows it.

If Nyquist or Tatar are not good enough yet to be in the NHL on THIS DRW team then thats either terrible scouting or terrible drafting or terrible development.

pro sports teams make room for good young players, regardless of how many seasons in the minors they have played to "earn" their dues.

KH had countless other options dont anyone be so ignorant to think that he did not


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03-18-2013, 12:59 PM
  #45
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They can waive scrubs like Miller/Eaves etc to make room, most likely no one will pick them up, and if someone do, it doesn't matter because Andersson, Sheahan etc can easily replace them

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03-18-2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GT500x View Post
As others have said, I think Nyquist and Tatar were being evaluated, and if you ask me Babcock was more impressed by Tatar. Nyquist could be traded soon and when you compare him to coming prospects he looks expendable. If I were to trade anyone it would be Datsyuk and I'd start the rebuild but I get the feeling that the Wings will make a trade and overpay for a shut-down defenseman and then go for the cup this year.
I agree I think the only reason that Nyquist was brought up was to possibly showcase him for a trade possibilitie not that playing only one game and then a healthy scratch in another game Is the way to showcase him I could be wrong but alot of other Wings fans seem to think the very same thing

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03-18-2013, 01:01 PM
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Anderson is harder to knock off the puck so in makes sense in the short-term.
Right, but it's harder for Andersson to knock the puck into the net. I guess it's all about the defense-first priority.

But even still, Nyquist-Andersson-Eaves (or somebody) would have been a balanced line with speed, skill, and some size/grit. That hardly seems like a line that's going to encounter a ton of problems in any one category.

This is sort of what I just said in the Tatar thread, but why isn't Babcock okay with hybrid lines? You put a skilled guy with some big defensive guys and let them make up for each other's weaknesses. Is that not a thing the Wings do anymore? When in doubt, more size and more defense?

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03-18-2013, 01:15 PM
  #48
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The guy is dominating the AHL. How is he going to learn to get stronger on the puck against a bunch of guys he's toying with? He's gotta take the next step and adjust, not play down a level.
I think this is what a lot of people don't understand, the difference in skill level from the NHL to the AHL is huge. Him and Tatar have learned all they can at the AHL level, it's time for them to make mistakes in the show and learn from them. You're only going to get better playing against people better than you.

I know it all comes down to roster space and they are available to move up and down but that shouldn't be an excuse for why they aren't playing with the Red Wings. I'll point my finger at a guy that name starts with a K.

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03-18-2013, 01:28 PM
  #49
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I calls em like I sees em.
Mmmhmm. So do I.

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Nyquist is better than a PPG pace down there. Tatar has been producing solidly for four years now. 32 points in 58 games your first year is not bad at all. The thing about "next season" is that we've been hearing that forever.
Forever? As in, like, a year? Nyquist's FIRST pro season was LAST season. Tatar REALLY started showing what he could do two and a half seasons ago. There will be roster spots opening up after this year.

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And Jarnkrok is coming over next year and supposed to make a push for the team. We still have a bunch of useless vets signed. Andersson is proving he belongs. So, what's going to happen to make guaranteed room for those guys, "next year"?
What are the chances of Jarnkrok making a seemless transition to North American hockey at 22 years old? Brunner is 26, and he's having growing pains even having played half a season in Europe with Zetterberg.

Here are the expiring existing forward contracts: Filppula, Cleary, and Miller. The contracts coming off the year after: Datsyuk (ugh), Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Eaves. That's 7 roster spots right there, assuming one or more isn't re-signed, and someone else isn't traded. There will be room, barring a complete brain-melt by DHO (Detroit Hockey Ops is what I'm going to start calling the front office, because it's more than Holland calling the shots).

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I'm actually not putting words in your mouth. I was just pointing out how absurd you sounded.
No, you claimed I was saying something that I wasn't, which is "putting words in my mouth."

Absurd? I'm not the one running around like Chicken Little here.

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This is about fielding the best team. Tatar makes the team better. Period. He is better than Miller, Eaves, Cleary, Abby, Sammy. He's shown that at the NHL level now. I thought players earned their spots? I guess that wasn't so true.
For now AND the future. Tatar and Nyquist make this team better tomorrow just as much as -- if not more than -- they do today.

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You don't get better by dominating people you're clearly better than. Which is kind of what "leading the league in scoring" means. You get better by playing against better competition.
Nyquist has led the league in scoring a total of ONE season. Which happens to be his 2nd season. Which means the Wings are now seeing what they have with him. Tatar has consistently shown that he's better than the AHL, and can produce in the NHL, so the time is right. Unfortunately for him, with the logjam at forward, he'll have to be patient and wait for next year (or be traded).

Which we'll all have to do, unless some folks decide to abandon ship... come to think of it, that might not be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Finishing out their season in the AHL, even with playoffs, isn't going to help them progress near what they could be in Detroit.
What, playing on the 3rd line with limited minutes? You're telling me that playing 1st line minutes, through the playoffs, and taking leadership roles on the team isn't going to help them progress?

I honestly can't agree with you.

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But what's the point, why not let them accustom themselves to the NHL right now during this season? Why wait and prolong the inevitable?
Personally, I think they're better served as larger fish in a smaller pond for the moment; they'll be moved over to the bigger pond soon enough.

** And with this post, I'm done with this thread. You can reply to me, but in my opinion there's no point in continuing since people will continue to freak out, point fingers, and call names. **

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03-18-2013, 01:29 PM
  #50
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He'll be our deadline acquisition.

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