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Old
03-18-2013, 12:03 PM
  #26
DRWCountryClub
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I feel like Nyquist would learn more glued to Datsyuk's wing for 10 games than playing in a league he's not going to develop further in.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
What the hell are his other defincies? Quit making excuses.
None. He's the perfect player.

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03-18-2013, 12:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Nyquist and Tartar are nowhere near as good as people here wish them to be. It's a typical fan phenomenon with teams perceived to be underperforming, like how the backup QB's supposed quality tends to increase parallel to a decline in the starting QB's fortunes.

You could still play them of course if you focus on the future and harbor no ambitions for this year, but management refuses to go down that path. And judging by the reactions in game threads or the heated debate about line combinations, it doesn't seem like a lot of fans are ready to subscribe to that view either.
I really have no idea how you could look at Tatar's time up and say he wasn't as good as we wanted. The kid met my expectations completely, hell he surpassed them. Slick hands, good patience, obvious nose for the net.

He was billed as somewhat slow and small, so when he was faster and strong on the puck, that was a welcome surprise. He's totally ready. He proved that.

Nyquist is still a question mark because he's hand like, 3 games and they were all in single game stints with him being juggled every which way. Tatar had the benefit of consistency and playing with guys he knew. I don't get how people don't understand that chemistry between linemates is a huge thing? You can't just slot Nyquist in anywhere and expect him to rock out.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
None. He's the perfect player.
He doesn't have any weaknesses - he's not bad defensively. It's not a strength, but it's not a weakness. How could any of his defincies outweigh his production?

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:07 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
Thing is, that's never been Nyquist's game. Nyquist is a sneaky player who waits for the right opening. He's deadly because of hockey sense, but needs space. He can't create it for himself. You can see why it's a problem to have both Franzen and Nyquist on Datsyuk's wing, because neither of them create space. That line was a non-starter.

Tatar's game is just to skate everywhere and show off his hands. Tatar did a bit better because he didn't really have to learn his linemates; it's just "we chip the puck around and skate really hard." Not only did he play with guys who created space, but his game creates space anyway. It's no big surprise that Tatar did well.

Think about Nyquist's line from GR: Andersson went to the net and created space and Tatar would drag defenders all over the place. Those two gave Nyquist a lot of room. I don't think Nyquist has had a line that complimented him since he played with Bertuzzi and Datsyuk last year. For all the trash we've loved to talk about Bertuzzi, he's a ton better at creating space than Franzen is.
Great post and great observation by someone who clearly actually watches them play. Thank you for this.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Tatar's numbers aren't terrible but not so great that other deficiencies in his game couldn't easily outweigh that relative positive. There have been many examples of that in the history of the league.

I don't think Tatar and Nyquist are incapable of playing in the NHL but I also see little evidence to suggest they are the "answer" to the Wings' problems.
Uh his numbers are fantastic for a third liner playing third line minutes with third line linemates. If our third line averaged his pace we'd be ****ing set.

What are his negatives? I can think of ways he could be better. Sure, he could be Chara's size, he could be Helm's speed, he could be Datsyuk level hands and vision. But he uses his size very well and he's got more than enough speed. His hands are there and he can make plays. He is absolutely a net gain for the team when compared to non-producers like Eaves, Abby, Cleary.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
What the hell are his other defincies? Quit making excuses.
He is pretty small, not overly athletic and obviously is no physical presence. That's not exactly irrelevant if you don't have the hands and vision of Gretzky and try to earn NHL ice time.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:14 PM
  #33
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He is pretty small, not overly athletic and obviously is no physical presence. That's not exactly irrelevant if you don't have the hands and vision of Gretzky and try to earn NHL ice time.
So if our prospects aren't big enough or athletic enough, they have to have the hands and vision of Gretzky to make the NHL? Sounds like KH and Babs.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:14 PM
  #34
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At some point I'd think a line of Andersson Helm Tatar could be a very solid 3rd line, one of the better ones in the league. Two guys who can take draws, two guys who can skate, all of them decent defensive players. Joakim and Tomas can score, Helm and Andersson can PK. Joakim is your net front guy who can also dig pucks out of the corners. I think that line could be very effective.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:25 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
So if our prospects aren't big enough or athletic enough, they have to have the hands and vision of Gretzky to make the NHL? Sounds like KH and Babs.
As I said Tatar could make the NHL, but I said he's overrated and since according to you "he has no weaknesses" I'd say that point has been rather easily confirmed.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
He is pretty small, not overly athletic and obviously is no physical presence. That's not exactly irrelevant if you don't have the hands and vision of Gretzky and try to earn NHL ice time.
What does athletic mean? Speed? He's fast enough. If you watched the games, you never saw speed as an issue with his game. Hell he's faster than Cleary and he's got better hands and skill. And it's not like Cleary is known for delivering big hits.

His size means not very much at all. Datsyuk isn't that big either, but he's the biggest player on the team. Tatar is much stronger on the puck than most of the other guys.

Your excuses are really lame.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:32 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
As I said Tatar could make the NHL, but I said he's overrated and since according to you "he has no weaknesses" I'd say that point has been rather easily confirmed.
Our prospects are all overrated because people confuse their hopes for possibility/probability here. Reality is such a bitter pill to swallow.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:33 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
As I said Tatar could make the NHL, but I said he's overrated and since according to you "he has no weaknesses" I'd say that point has been rather easily confirmed.
Tell me the weaknesses he showed during his stint in Detroit. He plays a solid all-around game.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:39 PM
  #39
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No matter what guy goes out of the lineup getting Helm back is huge if he can play at 80% capacity or better.

If Abdelkader isn't going anywhere before Sammy's back I'd go with:
Filppula-Zetterberg-Brunner
Franzen-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Cleary-Helm-Miller
Andersson-Emmerton-Tootoo

Miller has certainly played well with Helm before, and Andersson has earned his stay in the lineup over Eaves.

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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Tell me the weaknesses he showed during his stint in Detroit. He plays a solid all-around game.
Well whatever we say/think the main reason he hasn't earned Babcock's full trust is his play without the puck. So in terms of getting more icetime it's defensive awareness. I'd rather he learned it the hard way by playing NHL minutes but it's not going to happen.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:39 PM
  #40
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Tatar has an 'on pace' for around 15-20 goals, and 15-20 assists over a full season. For a guy that averaged about 1:50 of PP time and less than 12:00 of TOI/G total, that's some nice production.

Of course he has weaknesses, everyone does, but he has a nose for the net and is a guy who can put it in the net, a distinct NEED on this roster of grinders and playmakers.

With Helm coming back, I think Tatar fills a need more than either Nyquist or Andersson, and would look good playing beside Tatar rather than Abdelkater, who hasn't scored a goal with a goalie in net with his own power. Andersson should be sent down, Tatar up.

But oh wait, Anderssson is a big body and plays realgood. Don't get me wrong, I like Andersson and would like to see him slot in as the 4th center, getting rid of Emmerton, and have Tatar up, but right now Tatar would help this team more than Andersson in my opinion.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:49 PM
  #41
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Well whatever we say/think the main reason he hasn't earned Babcock's full trust is his play without the puck.
Which is ludicrous. I don't just accept Babcock's conclusions 100% no question. I watch the games too. Tatar played a decent bunch of games and nothing said "defensive liability" in those games. At the very least, he's no worse than Brunner, who loses the puck more and is somehow trusted with being on the point during the PP? Which terrifies me, and every other knowledgeable Wings fan, every time?

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:51 PM
  #42
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The thing you look for in a guy who isn't one of your elite star type players is positioning, work ethic, intensity, physicality, decision-making off-the-puck, awareness. Tatar isn't bad at all of those things or else he would have been sent down already, but to say he has no weaknesses in any of those areas is flat out delusional.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:54 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Tatar has an 'on pace' for around 15-20 goals, and 15-20 assists over a full season. For a guy that averaged about 1:50 of PP time and less than 12:00 of TOI/G total, that's some nice production.
Something like "pace" with 4 goals in 18 games is just asinine. I still remember Eaves being on all sorts of "paces" and I guess it's just a conspiracy against him that his career never took off.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:54 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
He is pretty small, not overly athletic and obviously is no physical presence. That's not exactly irrelevant if you don't have the hands and vision of Gretzky and try to earn NHL ice time.
Tatar is actually pretty well put together, very athletic and has put a decent amount of jam in his game. He even fights from time to time. I think his biggest weakness is shot selection/accuracy. Has a little bit of a Sammy streak to him and likes to blow it high and wide an awful lot.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:57 PM
  #45
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What doesn't make a ton of sense to me is that Tatar's line wasn't a defensive liability. His linemates were able to make up for what he lacked. Why did Babcock take apart that line when he didn't have to? I don't have an answer to that.

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Old
03-18-2013, 01:11 PM
  #46
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Something like "pace" with 4 goals in 18 games is just asinine. I still remember Eaves being on all sorts of "paces" and I guess it's just a conspiracy against him that his career never took off.
It gives us a look at what he could possibly do in a full season. Not my problem if you refuse to ignore it. 18 games is a decent sample size, and Tatar got quite a few chances. Maybe you didn't watch him play?

Bringing up Eaves as an example is quite ignorant because they are two different players in two different situations at two different times in their careers.

I don't think it's out of the ordinary to assume Tatar would have potted 15 goals. Regardless he OUTSCORED every single 'bottom six' player in less games, and one less than Cleary in less games. What this means, is that in the same time frame, he scored more than players that are currently on the team. He was not a defensive liability, and outright earned a spot.

As for defense, look at Datsyuk, +11, and then look at his amazing defensive wingers, Cleary and Abby, -3 and -1 respectively(I know Cleary is finally off).

That's the gauge for a 'defensive' winger? The guys who playing with one of the best defensive and offensive players in the game, couldn't keep a plus/minus over 0?

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Old
03-18-2013, 01:20 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The thing you look for in a guy who isn't one of your elite star type players is positioning, work ethic, intensity, physicality, decision-making off-the-puck, awareness. Tatar isn't bad at all of those things or else he would have been sent down already, but to say he has no weaknesses in any of those areas is flat out delusional.
None of his weaknesses were enough for him to be sent down while keeping some of the other players playing. Obviously Babcock has no problem scratching guys like White, Tootoo, Eaves. So scratch an underperforming forward for Tatar. He's better than the entire bottom six right now.

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:01 PM
  #48
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I gotta say, Nyquist looked nowhere near as energetic as Tatar during Tatar's stint with the Wings, I expected more out of the Goose while playing with Datsyuk, which seemed to be everyone's wish?
+1
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
It gives us a look at what he could possibly do in a full season. Not my problem if you refuse to ignore it. 18 games is a decent sample size, and Tatar got quite a few chances. Maybe you didn't watch him play?

Bringing up Eaves as an example is quite ignorant because they are two different players in two different situations at two different times in their careers.

I don't think it's out of the ordinary to assume Tatar would have potted 15 goals. Regardless he OUTSCORED every single 'bottom six' player in less games, and one less than Cleary in less games. What this means, is that in the same time frame, he scored more than players that are currently on the team. He was not a defensive liability, and outright earned a spot.

As for defense, look at Datsyuk, +11, and then look at his amazing defensive wingers, Cleary and Abby, -3 and -1 respectively(I know Cleary is finally off).

That's the gauge for a 'defensive' winger? The guys who playing with one of the best defensive and offensive players in the game, couldn't keep a plus/minus over 0?
Good point.

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:04 PM
  #49
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I don't think Tatar and Nyquist are incapable of playing in the NHL but I also see little evidence to suggest they are the "answer" to the Wings' problems.
So the two options are "NHL capable" and "the answer to the Wings problems?"

That's like saying "because Tatar isn't Datsyuk, he's basically Emmerton."

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:14 PM
  #50
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I am really glad we are getting Helm back. He is such an important player for this team.
I hope he plays like helm right away it would really suck to see him take 5-10 games to get back into stride.

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