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Datsyuk is the best 2 way player in the world

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:37 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
You would build a franchise around a 34 year old player with 1 year left on his contract who said he wants to finish his career in Russia?
Well obviously if he was not returning to Russia after next season then yes. His leadership and skill set is incredible and the young kids can watch and learn from of the the greats.

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03-18-2013, 02:45 PM
  #627
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Well obviously if he was not returning to Russia after next season then yes. His leadership and skill set is incredible and the young kids can watch and learn from of the the greats.
Lets say he plays until he's 40 and is great up until then, which is pretty generous considering how many players make it to 40 and play like stars. Not impossible for Datsyuk since he has been so good in his 30s but still unlikely.

That means you would get 6 season of elite hockey and yes mentor-ship for the young guys. But compare that to someone like Karlsson who could play for another 15-18 years who probably hasn't even hit his prime yet.

Also when starting a franchise, the team will likely suck for at least a couple years meaning you might only have your franchise centerpiece in the post-season for a few years.

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03-18-2013, 02:45 PM
  #628
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Datsyuk has a better 2 way game than Sid
but Crosby is the better player, because his offense is so dominant he ALWAYS has the puck.

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03-18-2013, 02:52 PM
  #629
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As usual, Danz doing his best to discredit what Toews has accomplished.

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He started his career on the first line
So Toews stepping into the NHL at 19, and being a 1st line centre at that age (not to mention the fact that he would have been a shoo-in for the Calder had he not been injured) is somehow a strike against him?

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played on awful teams
Which awful teams? The team that missed the playoffs by 3 points in his rookie season (again, not unreasonable to believe they would have made the playoffs had he not gotten injured), the team that went to the conference finals in his 2nd year, or the one that won the Cup in his 3rd year? Which of those were "awful"?

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and was already adjusted to the North American playing style before he started in the NHL
While it is true that Toews played in North America, it is also true that he played against boys in the NCAA prior to the NHL while Datsyuk played against men.

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If you're expecting Toews to all of sudden blow up offensively at 27, I think you would be disappointed... I can see a couple 80-85 point seasons though, with health, in his prime
Toews has improved offensively every year he has been in the league, why don't we wait until he plateaus before we decide what his prime will be?

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03-18-2013, 02:59 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Datsyuk has a better 2 way game than Sid
but Crosby is the better player, because his offense is so dominant he ALWAYS has the puck.
The thing about how 2-way players are perceived that I don't like is how defense is viewed as more important than offense. Why? If a player is a 1-way player (no offense, or no defense), then a player who has solid defense and offense is clearly a better 2-way player.

But why is player B a better 2-way than player A in this example (using numbers to represent proficiency):

Player A:
offense: 80
defense: 60

Player B:
offense: 60
defense: 80

Are 2-way players ranked simply by how good they are defensively with a tie-breaker going to offense? Shouldn't both sides of the game be viewed as equal for a 2-way player? Aren't Player A and B are equal in terms of 2-way ability?

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03-18-2013, 03:02 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
Two 97 point seasons doesn't prove it?

Toews's highest total is 76, more than TWENTY points lower than Datsyuk's peak, which he hit TWICE.

Before you point out that Datsyuk's offensive peak was several years ago, you should also note that Toew's peak season at 76 points was also several years ago.


Then go ahead and compare the quality of linemates between them, and it isn't even remotely close.
No, it doesn't prove that Datsyuk is significantly better NOW. It proves that he was significantly better 4 years ago.

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03-18-2013, 03:05 PM
  #632
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Toews has improved offensively every year he has been in the league, why don't we wait until he plateaus before we decide what his prime will be?[/QUOTE]

Players reach their plateaus at a certain time, just as easily as we could assume Toews will continue to improve he could conversely have an OV like decline or even worse. I think that's why a lot of people pimp Datsyuk so much, is he is 35 and still seems to be evolving.

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03-18-2013, 03:05 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
The thing about how 2-way players are perceived that I don't like is how defense is viewed as more important than offense. Why? If a player is a 1-way player (no offense, or no defense), then a player who has solid defense and offense is clearly a better 2-way player.

But why is player B a better 2-way than player A in this example (using numbers to represent proficiency):

Player A:
offense: 80
defense: 60

Player B:
offense: 60
defense: 80

Are 2-way players ranked simply by how good they are defensively with a tie-breaker going to offense? Shouldn't both sides of the game be viewed as equal for a 2-way player? Aren't Player A and B are equal in terms of 2-way ability?
let me rephrase
the gap between datsyuk and crosby's defense, does not overcome the gap between their offense at this point in their careers

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03-18-2013, 03:06 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
No, it doesn't prove that Datsyuk is significantly better NOW. It proves that he was significantly better 4 years ago.
That's the problem with comparing players that are still playing. We get stuck with past present and future segments of a career to compare. Some people are basing it on past numbers for Datsyuk and some in what Toews could do. Neither tells us a whole lot about now.

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03-18-2013, 03:10 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
That's the problem with comparing players that are still playing. We get stuck with past present and future segments of a career to compare. Some people are basing it on past numbers for Datsyuk and some in what Toews could do. Neither tells us a whole lot about now.
Actually, most of us arguing that there isn't a huge difference offensively are basing it on what they have done in the past 3 seasons... seems like a pretty logical way to evaluate who the better player is right now. Those insisting Datsyuk is much better offensively are either basing it on what he has done 4+ seasons ago, or using vague/subjective descriptions of his play to support their stance.

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03-18-2013, 03:10 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
let me rephrase
the gap between datsyuk and crosby's defense, does not overcome the gap between their offense at this point in their careers
Probably true. Though I think some overrate Crosby's defense and Datsyuk's offense. Orcutt could be the opposite, doesn't matter. What is most likely true is Crosby's offense holds enough value to make him the more impactful player.

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03-18-2013, 03:12 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Actually, most of us arguing that there isn't a huge difference offensively are basing it on what they have done in the past 3 seasons... seems like a pretty logical way to evaluate who the better player is right now. Those insisting Datsyuk is much better offensively are either basing it on what he has done 4+ seasons ago, or using vague/subjective descriptions of his play to support their stance.

I understand that, I agree. I also don't think Datsyuk is 'much better' just better. I don't think there there is that much gap between most of the top ten or do players. I think a lot it of people overestimate the value of a single player on a team. If we had a wins above replacement stat in hockey it would tell us this, imo.

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03-18-2013, 03:14 PM
  #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
The thing about how 2-way players are perceived that I don't like is how defense is viewed as more important than offense. Why? If a player is a 1-way player (no offense, or no defense), then a player who has solid defense and offense is clearly a better 2-way player.

But why is player B a better 2-way than player A in this example (using numbers to represent proficiency):

Player A:
offense: 80
defense: 60

Player B:
offense: 60
defense: 80

Are 2-way players ranked simply by how good they are defensively with a tie-breaker going to offense? Shouldn't both sides of the game be viewed as equal for a 2-way player? Aren't Player A and B are equal in terms of 2-way ability?
Because "two-way" player doesn't mean some kind of evenly split ratio, it's referring to a player who actively tries to balance out their defensive and offensive contributions.

If Sidney Crosby scores 140 "offense points" and 40 "defense points", while Pavel Datsyuk scores 90 for both, Datsyuk is a better two-way player and Crosby is a better producer.

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03-18-2013, 03:21 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Because "two-way" player doesn't mean some kind of evenly split ratio, it's referring to a player who actively tries to balance out their defensive and offensive contributions.

If Sidney Crosby scores 140 "offense points" and 40 "defense points", while Pavel Datsyuk scores 90 for both, Datsyuk is a better two-way player and Crosby is a better producer.
I would say Datsyuk would than be the more balanced player. But I guess we're just splitting hairs on how we look at two-way players.

For me as long as you are at least proficient at both ends I would view the better two-way player the one who contributes more overall. For example I don't think Ovechkin a few years ago was the best two-way player because he was a one-way player, still arguably the best player of course.

But Crosby who I view as good defensive player and a great offensive player would be the best two-way player in my mind (with Datsyuk being most balanced).

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03-18-2013, 03:22 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Because "two-way" player doesn't mean some kind of evenly split ratio, it's referring to a player who actively tries to balance out their defensive and offensive contributions.

If Sidney Crosby scores 140 "offense points" and 40 "defense points", while Pavel Datsyuk scores 90 for both, Datsyuk is a better two-way player and Crosby is a better producer.
But if Crosby has 120 "offense points" and 70 "defense points", while Datsyuk has 80 "offense points" and 90 "defense points", who is the better two way player?

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03-18-2013, 03:33 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Roo sad bro View Post
But if Crosby has 120 "offense points" and 70 "defense points", while Datsyuk has 80 "offense points" and 90 "defense points", who is the better two way player?
I suppose that's up for interpretation, but I think Datsyuk is demonstrably better on defense than Crosby - so maybe we should just abandon the term "two-way" altogether.

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03-18-2013, 03:44 PM
  #642
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I suppose that's up for interpretation, but I think Datsyuk is demonstrably better on defense than Crosby - so maybe we should just abandon the term "two-way" altogether.
I don't think anyone disagrees with Datsyuk being a better defensive player than Crosby. Datsyuks defense is Selke-worthy, although I don't like the way the Selke is given out (offense shouldn't matter imo). I always thought two-way player was a silly term.

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03-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #643
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Datsyuk is the second best player in the world after Stamkos, narrowly edging out Malkin, and is a couple huge steps ahead of Crosby.

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03-18-2013, 03:58 PM
  #644
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Datsyuk is the second best player in the world after Stamkos, narrowly edging out Malkin, and is a couple huge steps ahead of Crosby.
Well that is certainly an...interesting list/ranking.

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03-18-2013, 04:02 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Canadian Airlines View Post
Datsyuk is the second best player in the world after Stamkos, narrowly edging out Malkin, and is a couple huge steps ahead of Crosby.
Solid analysis.

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03-18-2013, 04:10 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
But Crosby who I view as good defensive player and a great offensive player would be the best two-way player in my mind (with Datsyuk being most balanced).
In essence, Crosby is the best player, and also a two way player. Datsyuk is the best two way player, but still overall not as good as Crosby at being a good player.

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03-18-2013, 04:11 PM
  #647
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Datsyuk is the second best player in the world after Stamkos, narrowly edging out Malkin, and is a couple huge steps ahead of Crosby.
Interested to hear your reasons.

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03-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #648
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Interested to hear your reasons.
Don't bite the bait.

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03-18-2013, 04:17 PM
  #649
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Don't bite the bait.
For real. He made that same post 3-4 times elsewhere. He's fishing for something.

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03-18-2013, 04:18 PM
  #650
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As usual, Danz doing his best to discredit what Toews has accomplished.



So Toews stepping into the NHL at 19, and being a 1st line centre at that age (not to mention the fact that he would have been a shoo-in for the Calder had he not been injured) is somehow a strike against him?



Which awful teams? The team that missed the playoffs by 3 points in his rookie season (again, not unreasonable to believe they would have made the playoffs had he not gotten injured), the team that went to the conference finals in his 2nd year, or the one that won the Cup in his 3rd year? Which of those were "awful"?



While it is true that Toews played in North America, it is also true that he played against boys in the NCAA prior to the NHL while Datsyuk played against men.



Toews has improved offensively every year he has been in the league, why don't we wait until he plateaus before we decide what his prime will be?
I didn't discredit Toews, I just said I don't think he will develop like Datsyuk. How can you be so blind as to not see that? I didn't say Toews starting on the first line was a knock against him, I said it gave him a significant advantage in developing much earlier. Datsyuk started on the 4th line behind Hall of Famers with limited ice time... Of course it would take longer for him to develop.

In comparison to the teams Datsyuk started his career on, Toews' teams are not close. Detroit didn't tank for picks like Chicago did, they've been dominant for 2+ decades, so working your way into the lineup is a lot tougher. Toews' would have been on the 4the line on that 2002 Detroit team, easily.

and who cares who Datsyuk played against in Europe... Are you arguing that it is not an advantage to be raised and trained throughout your career in a North American playing style as opposed to be thrown into it with no prior experience? Seriously?

These two factors:

1. Starting a career on a team with 8-10 Hall of Famers, limited ice time, fourth line role
2. Playing the North American game with no prior experience

You can't argue that that doesn't have an affect on a player's developmental curve. Once Datsyuk got adjusted and was given a lead role on the team, partially due to the departure of Yzerman and Shanahan, he took off and became one of the best players in the game. Toews was given that opportunity from day one, because he started his career on an inferior team, clearly.

Unless you think Toews is going to randomly double his offensive output at 26-27

That won't happen, but like I said, I could see a couple 80 point seasons from him, which is generous considering he's never scored a PPG season

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