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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:19 PM
  #551
luongo321
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Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
AV looks tired and he's pretty much used up all of his "strengths" with this team.

To be honest, I will not be shocked if he resigns
He has too big of an ego to resign. All he does is blame the players when they don't execute. He won't take any blame. Those aren't the words of a man that is about to resign.

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03-17-2013, 10:21 PM
  #552
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lol .

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03-18-2013, 12:53 AM
  #553
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Never mind I dont care any more...

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03-18-2013, 01:26 AM
  #554
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Never mind I dont care any more...
sounds like something AV would say

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03-18-2013, 04:20 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Their fenwick stinks with the lead though.

And when they give it up it's almost too late to flip the switch.

This team has an awful approach to games, whether that's on the coach or players, I won't blame one side.

Even with the roster and injuries, they should be better.

Let's hope this fenwick has the same effect as it did for LA last season.
This team used to press the attack a lot more, even when up by 1 or 2 goals. The personnel here are mostly the same from that first President's Trophy-winning team too, but the coaches are the real constant. Why do you think the players would start playing so conservatively now after all the success we've had from doing it that way?

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03-18-2013, 04:44 AM
  #556
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Ok, so what is it? You come on here and start picking at posts but I haven't seen you present a cohesive theory as to why the team is playing poorly.

I totally disagree that the owner, Gillis and AV are working in sync. And for all your mentions of 'low event hockey' - guess what? We are playing low event hockey RIGHT NOW. Most of the events are ones we give up against us.

Also, Gillis has stated in the media what his vision of this team is (repeatedly), and it isn't one that plays low cycle hockey continually and sits back on leads. This is reflected in the way that the team has been constructed. Even the guys who we traded that people seem to miss so much like Samuellson and Ehrhoff don't fit the play style of the team right now.

We are ALREADY playing close-to-the-vest hockey. No forechecking, long tip-ins, almost no even-man rushes, low cycle dump and chase - all of these are 'safe' hockey. We, like every other team, also plays a little trap here and there. We are literally one or two steps away from being that 2007 trap team - right now. To be honest, the only risky thing we do right now is how much our defence pinches.

The problem with most of the arguments you've presented is that we've already seen what this team is supposed to look like in 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. This team does not play ANYTHING like those two teams.

A lot of the skeleton of the systems of those teams remain, but they've been seriously neutered. An example is replacing the long stretch pass with the red-line tip in. Or the sudden regression of a dynamic PP with tons of passing to what we see today.

Notice that our PP hasn't given up a long breakaway due to the point guy mishandling the puck in a LONG time. This happened SEVERAL times in the 2010 playoffs, especially with Ehrhoff. Do you really think it's a coincidence that we now have a lot more conservative, static powerplay?

As for the LH shot thing, there are many teams out there with too many LH shots. European and Canadian players are mostly LH shots - our team is pretty reflective of this. And not TRYING RH players on the PP - how can that be anything but coaching?

People around here talk about letting the forwards be creative. How? There isn't really a way for them to do that right now with a predominantly low-cycle game. The worst thing is that we don't even do a stretched out cycle like the Hawks. Why? Because moving the cycle to the blueline/half boards is risky, and this is a risk-averse team.

It isn't a coincidence that our best line is the Sedins, and the reason they are creative is because they are allowed to do whatever they want. AV doesn't coach them at all, and he has admitted this in the media.

It also isn't a coincidence that in the last several games you see us scoring good goals on situations like odd-man rushes. That's because there is room and time to be creative. Our personnel isn't going to be as effective mucking under the goal line.

It also explains our bloated Fenwick. Remember, Fenwick is a volume statistic of shots DIRECTED on net. It includes shots on goal, plus misses and tips. Even our old teams had a lot of what I would call 'wasted' shot attempts from the perimeter when we got into the zone. Of course we have a high volume of directed shots - even the ones that miss count, and there is no provision for quality of shot in Fenwick/Corsi.

I will allow the idea that AV doesn't have the personnel - to play the system he thinks we should be playing, which has essentially reverted back to the 2006 season with some bells and whistles and a lot younger, faster, more skilled players.

However, we DO have the personnel to play a highly skilled offensive game with a defensive conscience. If you look at the players we have other than the Sedins, they are all young, fast, and decent in both ends. I do think we are low on pure sniping and to an extent passing but the latter is more of a result of purposely playing a less free-flowing game. All you have to do is look at who we have and it's obvious that there's a disconnect between the way AV is forcing the team to play and the way Gillis has constructed it.
Just quoting this again; great points here mossey.

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03-18-2013, 01:42 PM
  #557
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And if you read what posters like Tiranis have been saying you see why the bolded applies only if they haven't been trying to go with the same thing for well over a year now and it hasn't been working.
I know that this is going to start going in around in a circle,,but I don't think it has been that long. since the SCF, this team has had an improving win record. each half season better then the last, until this slump of about one month, I know people will say it was because of goal tending, but that conversation was thrashed by myself and others in the last AV thread.

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03-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
I know that this is going to start going in around in a circle,,but I don't think it has been that long. since the SCF, this team has had an improving win record. each half season better then the last, until this slump of about one month, I know people will say it was because of goal tending, but that conversation was thrashed by myself and others in the last AV thread.
I personally couldn't care less if they win or lose, I care how the game is played. Right now watching them play almost gives physical pain it is so laid back and disorganized. I actually get more angry when we win a game we don't deserve to as it supports negative reinforcement, which in turn creates complacency. Any team with a half-decent forecheck destroys our complacent team and Gillis along with AV have no answer.

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03-18-2013, 02:26 PM
  #559
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This team used to press the attack a lot more, even when up by 1 or 2 goals. The personnel here are mostly the same from that first President's Trophy-winning team too, but the coaches are the real constant. Why do you think the players would start playing so conservatively now after all the success we've had from doing it that way?
Isn't the constant complaint that AV's teams have always sat back with the lead? I believe that is one of the constant criticism's of AV on this board.

I think it's human nature to sit back and not try and make mistakes with the lead. When you don't need to score, you take your foot off the pedal, it's actually pretty common.

I just think the team is playing badly (and like opendoor posted, we're still one of the top 5 teams in fenwick).

I'm coming around to blaming AV on some things, just not the energy the players play with, IMO that is on them.

The breakout is brutal though, junior teams break out better than the Canucks right now....watch a Portland Winterhawks game, a player has at least two options with the puck no matter what. And by options I mean players to pass to. We have ONE (the far winger up at the opposition blueline), the other option is a dump from center.

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03-18-2013, 02:28 PM
  #560
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If Ballard will be a scratch in future games, why not try him out as a forward? Better than having $4.2M sitting in the pressbox.

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03-18-2013, 03:04 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by M A K A V E L I View Post
If Ballard will be a scratch in future games, why not try him out as a forward? Better than having $4.2M sitting in the pressbox.
Vigneault: "Having guys like Sestito every game gives us a better chance to win than moving Ballard to forward".


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Old
03-18-2013, 03:17 PM
  #562
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Who would you guys replace AV with?

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03-18-2013, 03:20 PM
  #563
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Who would you guys replace AV with?
Cooper, Eakins or Ruff. In that order. If a coach like Boucher were to become available, I would be interested in seeing what he could do with this club.

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03-18-2013, 03:25 PM
  #564
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Cooper, Eakins or Ruff. In that order. If a coach like Boucher were to become available, I would be interested in seeing what he could do with this club.
I'd actually start with a new PP coach. Brown deserves all the acolades for help turning the PP into an elite squad; but it's really stagnated lately. Sure injuries made things tough; but that's no excuse for going 0-33 (including at least one 5 on 3). Maybe a different approach would help (and would be good for Brown to go to another team to try another challenge).

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03-18-2013, 03:26 PM
  #565
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but that's no excuse for going 0-33 (including at least one 5 on 3). Maybe a different approach would help (and would be good for Brown to go to another team to try another challenge).
It's not really 0-33 though. They had a couple of goals after the PP expired but before the defender jumped back into the play. At some point, you have to say the on-ice personnel is the problem rather than the PP coach. Even just a simple PP with a screen and blasts from the point should get a couple of garbage goals in a 10 game stretch.

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03-18-2013, 03:28 PM
  #566
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If Ballard will be a scratch in future games, why not try him out as a forward? Better than having $4.2M sitting in the pressbox.
The same reason why Hodgson was never tried on the 2nd line at all with Kesler. AV doesn't want Ballard to succeed in any way on this team.

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03-18-2013, 03:29 PM
  #567
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Let's make Keith Ballard the new PP coach.

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03-18-2013, 03:30 PM
  #568
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Let's make Keith Ballard the new PP coach.
Get out.


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03-18-2013, 03:32 PM
  #569
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Get out.

AV might vomit if he has to stand that close to Keith for that long.

AV IS PREJUDICE AGAINST KEITH BALLARD. BALLARD-IST!

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Old
03-18-2013, 03:33 PM
  #570
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It's not really 0-33 though. They had a couple of goals after the PP expired but before the defender jumped back into the play. At some point, you have to say the on-ice personnel is the problem rather than the PP coach. Even just a simple PP with a screen and blasts from the point should get a couple of garbage goals in a 10 game stretch.
It really is though. Does scoring when a penalty just expires make you feel better about this clusterfunk?

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03-18-2013, 03:37 PM
  #571
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It really is though. Does scoring when a penalty just expires make you feel better about this clusterfunk?
It's only 0-33 officially. It's not about feeling better. It's about giving the real picture and not making stats look even worse than they already are.

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03-18-2013, 03:42 PM
  #572
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It's not really 0-33 though. They had a couple of goals after the PP expired but before the defender jumped back into the play. At some point, you have to say the on-ice personnel is the problem rather than the PP coach. Even just a simple PP with a screen and blasts from the point should get a couple of garbage goals in a 10 game stretch.
personnel change, guys get injured/traded/retire/whatever. it's the coach's job to work with what he's got and figure out how to make those players effective. coach to the players you have, don't just throw up your hands and say "kesler's out, i've done all i can".

also, when the pp was actually clicking a couple years ago they'd score in the first 15 seconds of an opportunity on a regular basis. if it takes that long to score maybe you're being too predictable.

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03-18-2013, 03:44 PM
  #573
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It's only 0-33 officially. It's not about feeling better. It's about giving the real picture and not making stats look even worse than they already are.
Alright, let's say they score those goals just before the penalty expires, congratulations Vancouver, you're 1 for 33 on the PP. Makes no difference, except for the fact the 1 looks better then 0.

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03-18-2013, 03:46 PM
  #574
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It's only 0-33 officially. It's not about feeling better. It's about giving the real picture and not making stats look even worse than they already are.
A pathetic looking 5 on 3 the other night is pretty bad no matter what personnel you have left healthy. It's not like Lidstrom and Hasek were on the other team.....

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03-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #575
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He thinks he's invincible. He thinks he's this team's guiding light. He thinks he's Jesus Vigneault.

"Thou shalt never have me fired."







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